Dont know what to do...

[BriskodaJeff]

8 minutes ago, penguin17 said:

Or because they attract/hire more competent people for the job? 

 

The two tend to go together I've found. More money from us means more money to pay staff, meaning they get better quality applicants. And they have money to train / retain them. 

 

11 minutes ago, penguin17 said:

Škoda dealers are awful in every regard IME. The one exception I’ve found was ALS Autos in Downham Market.  Anyway...

Me too, though I'm pleased you found an exception. I haven't .

 

14 minutes ago, penguin17 said:

I’ve just accepted with most high value purchases that once your business has been secured you are just another reference number. It shouldn’t work like that but it does. In car dealerships sales people are usually in short lived roles and are likely so focussed on keeping their jobs for another month/quarter that they don’t have the ‘luxury’ of thinking ‘I’ll phone Mr Mandp every day with a status update because in 10 years time he may come back and buy another car’.  They will need to make up the numbers and that’s all you are, a number. 

 

This exactly. And I think it's tied to @KeteCantek's post that your first point was replying to regarding cost. The guy  who sold me my last Mk2 was in fashion retail a few months before I first met him. Nice guy,  but he wasn't there a year later, when I asked to speak to him about a new car. And I've never seen the same service desk person twice. 

 

On a similar note re high value purchases - ever met an estate agent you wouldn't happily strangle? Me neither. Unfortunately our purchase is high value to us, but not to them.

 

FWIW I have had great customer service previously - from Stratstone Mayfair (Jaguar) and Amersham (Audi). Boy did I have to pay for it! I don't see Skoda or any of the volume retailers going down that road any time soon. 

 

26 minutes ago, penguin17 said:

Suck it up and  wait for the car or just forget about any new car. I have a feeling you’ll be disappointed no matter which dealer/marque you chose. 

 

At this end of the market, sadly true. As a serious point to the OP, if you are getting great service from your existing dealer and it is that important to you, I'd seriously consider holding on to them and choosing another Pug because it's likely you have found the exception in their dealer network. Sadly, for the reasons above, there is no guarantee it will continue though. 

[mandp]

13 minutes ago, BriskodaJeff said:

As a serious point to the OP, if you are getting great service from your existing dealer and it is that important to you, I'd seriously consider holding on to them and choosing another Pug because it's likely you have found the exception in their dealer network. Sadly, for the reasons above, there is no guarantee it will continue though. 

Good Morning, Jeff.

Yeah I too came to that thought a couple of months into my wait for this Skoda.

Trouble is, when he told me how much I could have to pay to get out of the deal.........

[Sagalout]

I do wonder at all this dealer/stealer bashing on car forums. Yes, they appear everywhere. BMW.Audi.Volvo.Jaguar.Ford.Vauxhall, Mazda and any other make you can think of. 

In this case, a simple issue with communication prompts a cancellation?? Sorry but that to me is really OTT. Have any attempts been made to complain formally to the Sales Manager/Director about this failure? If not why not? I am not at all surprised at the response of the Company.  

Is it an indicator of how the Company may perform on after sales/service? How can you possibly know that from this one event? It may be just one poor salesperson or one slip that needs to improve and unless you have complained them that is never going to happen. 

I get that for an individual it is a large committment both financially and emotionally. For the busines it is a one off sale. They have no guarantee that you will use the after sales/service or that you will repeat business within a few years.  In fact these days it is more than likely that you will not use them. Put bluntly, you probably don't even register on the 'might be important' list.

 

So for me that means taking responsibility for building a working relationship with the sales staff NOT just expecting it will come from them. As long as the sales staff are polite, listen and are prepared to deal then that is customer service to me (as far as a sale is concerned)  Once ordered, all I expect is to be kept up to date when there is something to tell me but otherwise why do I need to talk them? 

 

p.s. going uprange is no guarantee of excellent service. The worst experience I had was with Aston Martin. They seemed to think it was a privilege, to be allowed to buy, that was not offered to many. 

[Tom34]

Sales person says they will contact you and don't shocker! 

Don't know how anyone has the time and energy to cancel that many cars. Surely just creating more stress for yourself. 

 

Not trying to be rude but find a car you like, get an extended warranty and put up with the dealership, they're nearly all a much of a muchness. 

 

Edited 22 June, 2019 by Tom34

[mandp]

You chaps seem easily pleased. I am not.

Thanks alot for all the positive comments.

Perhaps its time to end this thread?

Edited 22 June, 2019 by mandp

[GrahamVRS]

Surprised they’ve not added a Time Waster fee too. 

[SurreyJohn]

If the salesman wrote on the order form you would get an update every 14 days, then breached the contract by not doing it, then that is their stupidity.  If they wrote Best endeavours to (or similar words) rather than will get, then it is not a breachable clause.

 

He added a contract term, failed to meet it, end of discussion.

what happens now is simple, they either negotiate to get you to reinstate it (by incentivising you), you both accept the breach and agree to void it, or they try and hide behind some small print (which must not be against the Unfair Contract Terms Act).  The Courts have made it clear that an explicit term (which your every 14 days is) overcalls a general catch all term.

 

Its not your problem, or financial cost if the dealer chooses to breach contract and is then stuck with the car.  Expensive lesson in training their staff properly.

 

 

[BriskodaJeff]

Not questioning your background or understanding @SurreyJohn, but is that really true? My day-job is writing, negotiating and sometimes exiting contracts (business-to-business, not business-to-consumer, hence I didn't want to comment in detail on this one).

 

In my world, for breach  of a single term to void a contract it would usually need to represent a fundamental breach of the entire contract which is not capable of remedy. Lack of reporting would almost never fall into that category - it just isn't important enough. Reporting, unless it is the primary contractual obligation which it certainly isn't here, would almost certainly not get beyond a "reasonable endeavours" (aka I'll have a go and you can complain if I don't do it) level of obligation. FYI "best endeavours" is a much higher level of obligation, and "procure" is the highest. None of these is likely to appear on an order form, so the obligation would need to be interpreted by the court. I don't think it's a get out of jail card for the OP.

 

The "pay for dealer advertising costs, loss on sale by the dealer to be paid by the OP" etc seems excessive to me, and may be covered by the Unfair Contract Terms Act, but I have no understanding of that area, so couldn't comment.

 

To caveat again, I have zero knowledge of the B2C position, so OP please treat this advice as being worth exactly what you paid for it. My original advice stands: read the order form and speak to Skoda UK. Or, as others have said, enjoy the car when it arrives. 

[SurreyJohn]

37 minutes ago, BriskodaJeff said:

Not questioning your background or understanding @SurreyJohn, but is that really true? My day-job is writing, negotiating and sometimes exiting contracts (business-to-business, not business-to-consumer, hence I didn't want to comment in detail on this one).

 

In my world, for breach  of a single term to void a contract it would usually need to represent a fundamental breach of the entire contract which is not capable of remedy. Lack of reporting would almost never fall into that category - it just isn't important enough. Reporting, unless it is the primary contractual obligation which it certainly isn't here, would almost certainly not get beyond a "reasonable endeavours" (aka I'll have a go and you can complain if I don't do it) level of obligation. FYI "best endeavours" is a much higher level of obligation, and "procure" is the highest. None of these is likely to appear on an order form, so the obligation would need to be interpreted by the court. I don't think it's a get out of jail card for the OP.

 

The "pay for dealer advertising costs, loss on sale by the dealer to be paid by the OP" etc seems excessive to me, and may be covered by the Unfair Contract Terms Act, but I have no understanding of that area, so couldn't comment.

 

To caveat again, I have zero knowledge of the B2C position, so OP please treat this advice as being worth exactly what you paid for it. My original advice stands: read the order form and speak to Skoda UK. Or, as others have said, enjoy the car when it arrives. 

 

Just to clarify a business-business contract is assumed to be commercially validated (as if a company’s legal team or solicitor has checked it).

 

A business to personal contract is different, will either be similar to business-business (especially if term deal, or witnessed, like a mortgage application), but a single retail sale is different.  In legal terms makes no difference if you are ordering a TV, a fridge or a car.  The Consumer has some general legal rights that don’t exist in the commercial contract.

 

The problem here is a salesperson has agreed to an additional contract term and made it an explicit term by writing it on the order.  If this was added prior to both parties signing, it is a valid contract term.   It has same status as adding something like must be painted red.  If retailer doesn’t meet that term the consumer is under no obligation to take the off-spec item.  As I said they might cut a deal, accept it with a discount.

 

There is a question of level of failure, if it was minor like one of the notifications was day late then a Court would probably assume not material enough to alter the contract.  If however there was very little attempt to meet this fortnightly report then would side with consumer.  Becomes rather a grey area if between these two points.

 

The other thing a Court will look at is how onerous is the clause, as this appears to be very easy to fulfill (a one line email or few seconds phone call once a fortnight is all it takes to meet it).  It’s not like it demands a specific time of day on certain dates and requires shed load of information each time.

 

The retailer trying to impose these cancellation costs would be fair if they are not at fault, but from reading the first post in the thread they are 100% responsible for not meeting the extra condition they accepted, so effectively they cancelled.  They didn’t have to accept this clause, could have refused, but as they appear to have agreed to it, are bound by it.

 

Edited 22 June, 2019 by SurreyJohn

[Sagalout]

I find it almost impossible to imagine a situation where a court would agree the breach as significant enough to warrant complete cancellation resulting in significant cost for the business. You may prove correct but I am not sure I would test it.

The costs aspects to the OP for cancellation are covered, in the main, within the contract although they do seem to have added some that are not specifically mentioned. Of course, if this was a contract within the distance selling rules it would have been much easier for the OP to simply walk away. 

There is also the question as to whether the salesperson was "a duly authorised representative" to agree any additions tothe standard contract terms.

Edited 22 June, 2019 by Sagalout
Typo

[J.R.]

I would forget about your disappointment regarding the lack of contact, if you no longer want the car then go down the route of if they cannot confirm a delivery date then you want to cancel.

 

Others more informed than me will confirm but can you even have an enforceable contract with them without a delivery date?

 

I guess that it will provoke them to giving you a date which you can then hope will not be met.

[IJWS15]

On 22/06/2019 at 16:22, SurreyJohn said:

 

Just to clarify a business-business contract is assumed to be commercially validated (as if a company’s legal team or solicitor has checked it).

 

A business to personal contract is different, will either be similar to business-business (especially if term deal, or witnessed, like a mortgage application), but a single retail sale is different.  In legal terms makes no difference if you are ordering a TV, a fridge or a car.  The Consumer has some general legal rights that don’t exist in the commercial contract.

 

The problem here is a salesperson has agreed to an additional contract term and made it an explicit term by writing it on the order.  If this was added prior to both parties signing, it is a valid contract term.   It has same status as adding something like must be painted red.  If retailer doesn’t meet that term the consumer is under no obligation to take the off-spec item.  As I said they might cut a deal, accept it with a discount.

 

There is a question of level of failure, if it was minor like one of the notifications was day late then a Court would probably assume not material enough to alter the contract.  If however there was very little attempt to meet this fortnightly report then would side with consumer.  Becomes rather a grey area if between these two points.

 

The other thing a Court will look at is how onerous is the clause, as this appears to be very easy to fulfill (a one line email or few seconds phone call once a fortnight is all it takes to meet it).  It’s not like it demands a specific time of day on certain dates and requires shed load of information each time.

 

The retailer trying to impose these cancellation costs would be fair if they are not at fault, but from reading the first post in the thread they are 100% responsible for not meeting the extra condition they accepted, so effectively they cancelled.  They didn’t have to accept this clause, could have refused, but as they appear to have agreed to it, are bound by it.

 

 

For  a breach to lead to termination it has to be fundamental to the contract, not calling isn't.  Now, and I have tried this with a large communications services provider, if there are repeated minor breaches and you keep complaining but they keep doing it you may (and this advice came at high cost from one of the big legal firms) succeed in terminating but don't bet much on it.  The notice of termination got them to do something about the issues but the action probably wouldn't have succeeded.  Now if the order had written on it "to call every two weeks with an update and if you don't I can cancel at no cost"  then the ground is firm.  

[mandp]

1 hour ago, IJWS15 said:

 

For  a breach to lead to termination it has to be fundamental to the contract, not calling isn't.  Now, and I have tried this with a large communications services provider, if there are repeated minor breaches and you keep complaining but they keep doing it you may (and this advice came at high cost from one of the big legal firms) succeed in terminating but don't bet much on it.  The notice of termination got them to do something about the issues but the action probably wouldn't have succeeded.  Now if the order had written on it "to call every two weeks with an update and if you don't I can cancel at no cost"  then the ground is firm.  

Good Morning.

Nah...the actual wording on the order form is as follows:

 

Estimated 20 week average lead time, fortnightly updates via email after first month.

 

I believe I'm going to take delivery, get rid in a year or so and go back to Peugeot...maybe to a 508.

Thank you very much for the advice.

[Wardy]

Hi Mike - I'm missing the logic of flogging after a year, once you've taken delivery of the car?

 

I think it's fair to say that with a factory order, the painful bit is the unknown of when it will arrive, and the progress (or lack thereof) around the delivery process. Hence your thoughts about cancelling!

 

But if you've gone through that pain and you like the car, where is the sense in selling after a year? Especially with the likely financial pain that will ensue given the 2nd hand car market and the fact you've taken the large initial hit with depreciation of a brand new car.

[Steviedakota]

27 minutes ago, mandp said:

Good Morning.

Nah...the actual wording on the order form is as follows:

 

Estimated 20 week average lead time, fortnightly updates via email after first month.

 

I believe I'm going to take delivery, get rid in a year or so and go back to Peugeot...maybe to a 508.

Thank you very much for the advice.

 

This is possibly the worst thing you can do. You will be murdered on the depreciation.   If you are seriously thinking of this path, cancel the order and walk away, you will lose far less.

 

To be honest I think you are acting very foolishly, condemning the ownership of car that you obviously liked enough to order, have not yet received, all on the basis of not getting a few emails.  Based on your previous cancelled orders, now maybe this one, will you ever receive the service you feel you deserve?  So many people would be delighted to be waiting on such a nice, new car, but you seem determined to throw all the toys out of the pram. 

[mandp]

21 minutes ago, Steviedakota said:

 

This is possibly the worst thing you can do. You will be murdered on the depreciation.   If you are seriously thinking of this path, cancel the order and walk away, you will lose far less.

 

To be honest I think you are acting very foolishly, condemning the ownership of car that you obviously liked enough to order, have not yet received, all on the basis of not getting a few emails.  Based on your previous cancelled orders, now maybe this one, will you ever receive the service you feel you deserve?  So many people would be delighted to be waiting on such a nice, new car, but you seem determined to throw all the toys out of the pram. 

Thank you.

[Otto_Octavius]

I'm not sure you lads have give Mandp the service he deserves in this thread.

Not really happy about the delay in responses either, may have to walk from Briskoda and find another forum.

[KeteCantek]

On 24/06/2019 at 09:48, mandp said:

Good Morning.

Nah...the actual wording on the order form is as follows:

 

Estimated 20 week average lead time, fortnightly updates via email after first month.

 

I believe I'm going to take delivery, get rid in a year or so and go back to Peugeot...maybe to a 508.

Thank you very much for the advice.

I am curious if the update email actually gets to you and just say, no change in estimated delivery time, would you be happy to accept that? 

 

What if you get that same email couple times in a row and then they say sorry, there is another 4 weeks delay. What then? Or best case they use the generic email every time but promise the estimate delivery date? 

End of the day, it's a update but quite meaningless. 

[mandp]

42 minutes ago, KeteCantek said:

I am curious if the update email actually gets to you and just say, no change in estimated delivery time, would you be happy to accept that? 

 

What if you get that same email couple times in a row and then they say sorry, there is another 4 weeks delay. What then? Or best case they use the generic email every time but promise the estimate delivery date? 

End of the day, it's a update but quite meaningless. 

Hello, Kete,

What I was promised, both verbally and in writing, was to receive an update email every fortnight...whether or not there was anything new to report.

I would have been delighted with that.

Regards

Mike.

[mandp]

On 24/06/2019 at 10:13, Wardy said:

Hi Mike - I'm missing the logic of flogging after a year, once you've taken delivery of the car?

 

I think it's fair to say that with a factory order, the painful bit is the unknown of when it will arrive, and the progress (or lack thereof) around the delivery process. Hence your thoughts about cancelling!

 

But if you've gone through that pain and you like the car, where is the sense in selling after a year? Especially with the likely financial pain that will ensue given the 2nd hand car market and the fact you've taken the large initial hit with depreciation of a brand new car.

Sorry, `Wardy`..I somehow missed your post.

This has never been about the car...any car...its always about the dealer.

The truth is I've fallen out of love for the car. Maybe after a year or so I'll feel better...and maybe go to a different dealer for `after-care`.

Thanks for your interest.

Regards

Mike.

[BriskodaJeff]

2 hours ago, Otto_Octavius said:

I'm not sure you lads have give Mandp the service he deserves in this thread.

Not really happy about the delay in responses either, may have to walk from Briskoda and find another forum.

Thanks for a genuine laugh out loud moment there @Otto_Octavius - absolute class.

 

Though my client tells me you will owe him a new keyboard if the coffee I spat all over this one doesn't come out...

 

[Nick_H]

2 hours ago, BriskodaJeff said:

Thanks for a genuine laugh out loud moment there @Otto_Octavius - absolute class.

 

Though my client tells me you will owe him a new keyboard if the coffee I spat all over this one doesn't come out...

 

 

OMG ! Whoosh parrot for me for on that one ! Far to subtle for me lol !

Edited 26 June, 2019 by Nick_H

[KeteCantek]

On 26/06/2019 at 17:40, mandp said:

Hello, Kete,

What I was promised, both verbally and in writing, was to receive an update email every fortnight...whether or not there was anything new to report.

I would have been delighted with that.

Regards

Mike.

 

That's great of you want that. I think most rational people would think it's an entirely pointless activity.

 

End of the day, a car will be ready when it's ready. Generally the estimates are accurate and if not, you will have a genuine case. 

 

 

Good luck in your search for a car.