Handling Feel

[MC Bodge]

I've now had my 1.4TSI Octavia estate for a few months.

 

Whilst the steering and handling aren't bad and it covers ground quite well if driven hard, it does require a bit of muscling (albeit fairly light steering) and doesn't quite "feel" or respond to cornering how I might expect it to. 

 

My previous car was a Mk4 Mondeo estate, which handled very well for a car of its size. I know that the rear suspension was far more sophisticated than the torsion beam in the Octavia, which can be noticed when hitting bumps mid-corner. Is the independent rear suspension noticeably different to drive? 

 

We also have a 56plate Fiesta Zetec (the angular one) , which has a simple torsion beam rear. The Fiesta handles brilliantly, far better than the Mk1 Fabia we had previously and grips well and would dance around the Octavia. 

 

The Octavia appears to display a slight reluctance to turn in and in a mid-bend situation doesn't have a lot of feel. It also tends to understeer/breakaway at the front, albeit gently. I've played around with the tyre pressures and 36F 33R did improved things. I may further increase the front pressure. Tyres are Nexen blue(?) Front and OEM Eco contact rear, which will be replaced with Rainsport or Eagles in the near future. 

 

I'm assuming that the Mondeo had an element of passive rear steer that the Octavia doesn't. 

 

An anti roll bar on the back could help a little with turn-in, but could be detrimental to the already slightly harsh rear ride. 

 

 

Edited 11 July, 2019 by MC Bodge

[Kenai]

VW Group cars are notorious for numb handling feeling and tendency to understeer. IRS helps a bit but general opinion would suggest the equivalent Ford is going to be more 'feelsome' regardless. 

 

As you correctly suggest, a rear ARB will help a bit with the understeer tendency. 

[Kenny R]

Could all be down to tyres, “Eco” tyres are only designed for one thing and that’s not handling

Edited 11 July, 2019 by Kenny R

[Scotty72]

Fords do generally handle/drive very well when compared to their VW Group Cousins.

Maybe you need to try say a 245 vRS to see what your model is lacking?  Naturally has differing rear independent suspension and VAQ diff too.

[logiclee]

Ford Mondeo Mk4 was always the leader in the class for handling and so was the Fiesta.

 

The Octavia is a spacious family car that offers great value.

 

The downsides are numb but competent handling, a slightly crashy ride and poor noise insulation.

 

Mainstream VAG models have never been class leaders for handling feel and the Octavia uses the cheapest components in the parts bin.

 

That's the compromise you make getting all the space and kit at this price point.

[penguin17]

As above, you're comparing probably one of the best handling mainstream family cars with a VW group car.  It' not a fair comparison. 

 

For all of Fords faults they know how to make sharp handling and communicative cars.  Every mainstream VW group car that I've driven has some degree of vagueness to the steering.  The difference is even more noticeable in Fords hot hatch offerings where they just feel so much better. 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkyG82]

For turn in and mid-corner response you need the geometry to be more precise.  Fitting a dogbone insert has made a huge difference to the handling of mine (not sure if the 1.4 has the same holes to fit the inserts but worth a look).  Another thing you can look at is the anti-roll ability of the rear.  There are a few things that can be done but the Neuspeed torsion bar looks to be the best option. 

As for pressures, I wouldn't go any higher than 36 in the front as you are risking further understeer.  Try raising the rear to 34/35 assuming you are onn17 inch wheels.

[Russ77]

Having owned MK1 & MK2 focus estates, the handling of my Octavia is the only real let down although that's probably a little too harsh criticism, especially as handling was the Focus' trump card.

 

But......  my MK2 focus had 18in alloys on it (225/40/18) so the ride was quite harsh and potholes used to cause me all kinds of nightmares/grimaces when driving on our "lovely" roads.  The 17in alloys on the Octavia and slightly higher sidewalls are more forgiving and make a much more comfortable, if somewhat "numb" feeling drive.

 

Not something that bothers me too much, it does still handle very well for a fairly large car

[gregoir]

I find the best handling  is from 34psi front and 36psi rear unladen. But the tyre wear and ride comfort may get worse. The higher rear pressure gives a bit more roll stiffness. But mid- corner dips in the road give a slight wriggle if you are not driving in a relaxed fashion.

I have come from oe Michelin Energy tyres to Vredestein Quatrac5 on 205/55/16.

[Gti Jazz Blue]

7 minutes ago, gregoir said:

I find the best handling  is from 34psi front and 36psi rear unladen. But the tyre wear and ride comfort may get worse. The higher rear pressure gives a bit more roll stiffness. But mid- corner dips in the road give a slight wriggle if you are not driving in a relaxed fashion.

 

Funny you mention that - I'm running factory pressures and I sometimes feel like a shimmy from the rear.

[ian_feel_keepin_it_reel]

I'm not sure if you've stated this and I've just missed it but is your suspension stock? 

 

A decent set of tires and a firmer lower suspension will make a massive difference. 

 

I used to have a 13plate fiesta and if I remember rightly the recommended rear pressure was much lower than the front. Like 26psi.

[logiclee]

The trick that Ford have achieved in the past is to combine a subtle ride with great road holding and great steering feedback.

 

With the Octavia you can go stiffer and play with tyre pressures to try and get better turn in or reduce understeer.  But you can never replicate that balance or feel that the OP is missing.

 

To be honest the latest Mondeo is not brilliant, it's an Americanised world car so is comfort biased and has overlight steering with little feel.

 

VAG have improved over the years but still never seem to be class leading. Even the bigger Audi's (A4, A6, A8) struggle for driving dynamics against the likes of BMW's (3, 5, 7) and Jag's (XE, XF, XJ).

 

Some years ago the difference was massive, I had a 3.0V6 Mondeo and my cousin had a Golf R32. The Golf was slightly quicker off the mark but the Mondeo was a joy to drive, it felt like an extension of your arms and legs. The Golf just had no feel, totally numb and down a bumpy B road I could leave him behind.

As Clarkson said about the Mk3 3.0V6 Mondeo "Every time I drive one of these I wonder why we buy anything else"

 

Lee

 

 

Edited 11 July, 2019 by logiclee

[MC Bodge]

1 hour ago, logiclee said:

The trick that Ford have achieved in the past is to combine a subtle ride with great road holding and great steering feedback.

 

With the Octavia you can go stiffer and play with tyre pressures to try and get better turn in or reduce understeer.  But you can never replicate that balance or feel that the OP is missing.

 

To be honest the latest Mondeo is not brilliant, it's an Americanised world car so is comfort biased and has overlight steering with little feel.

 

VAG have improved over the years but still never seem to be class leading. Even the bigger Audi's (A4, A6, A8) struggle for driving dynamics against the likes of BMW's (3, 5, 7) and Jag's (XE, XF, XJ).

 

Some years ago the difference was massive, I had a 3.0V6 Mondeo and my cousin had a Golf R32. The Golf was slightly quicker off the mark but the Mondeo was a joy to drive, it felt like an extension of your arms and legs. The Golf just had no feel, totally numb and down a bumpy B road I could leave him behind.

As Clarkson said about the Mk3 3.0V6 Mondeo "Every time I drive one of these I wonder why we buy anything else"

 

Lee

 

 

Part of the reason for going for an Octavia after having two Mondeos was due to the Mondeo handling no longer being that great. I was also interested in having a smaller, but still spacious car (The Focus too small) , although I would have considered a Superb if one had come up at the right price and spec. The 1.4TSI is also excellent. 

 

Ps. I went from a Mk1 Octavia vRS to a Mk3 Mondeo diesel some years ago and the chassis and steering were vastly better. The Mk3 Octavia is a big improvement over the Mk1. 

Edited 11 July, 2019 by MC Bodge

[encephalopathy]

i've changed a few things

 

front strut brace - bugger to fit but helps the car feel more composed when you hit bumps mid corner

thicker front and antiroll bars from damian at dpmperformance - massive improvement in cornering - tauter, much less roll and flatter through corners. they killed the original droplinks very quickly, replacements have been fine

uprated bilstein shocks and springs - work well together as you would expect as they are a matched kit

michelin pilot sport 4 tyres - great grip in wet and dry

engine mount insert - increased noise/vibration/harshness that settles after a while to a degree but vastly decreases episodes of wheelhop when making quick getaways

[MC Bodge]

1 hour ago, encephalopathy said:

i've changed a few things

 

front strut brace - bugger to fit but helps the car feel more composed when you hit bumps mid corner

thicker front and antiroll bars from damian at dpmperformance - massive improvement in cornering - tauter, much less roll and flatter through corners. they killed the original droplinks very quickly, replacements have been fine

uprated bilstein shocks and springs - work well together as you would expect as they are a matched kit

michelin pilot sport 4 tyres - great grip in wet and dry

engine mount insert - increased noise/vibration/harshness that settles after a while to a degree but vastly decreases episodes of wheelhop when making quick getaways

Interesting stuff, thanks. 

 

Ps. Now you mention it, wheel hop/traction off the line during a quick start is also an issue, especially in the wet, although I had suspected the tyres. Again, our ye olde Fiesta and the Mondeos hooked-up well off the line. 

Edited 11 July, 2019 by MC Bodge

[logiclee]

43 minutes ago, MC Bodge said:

Interesting stuff, thanks. 

 

Ps. Now you mention it, wheel hop/traction off the line during a quick start is also an issue, especially in the wet, although I had suspected the tyres. Again, our ye olde Fiesta and the Mondeos hooked-up well off the line. 

 

Yep wheel hop is common on FWD VAG models but they are not alone with this. Ford used to have aggressive torque limiters in 1st and 2nd on many higher torque models but I suspect there's more at play with suspension geometry and drivetrain mounts.

[ian_feel_keepin_it_reel]

Be aware when you fit lower engine mounts, the force that was being dissipated by the excessive engine movement and wheel hop is now more strain on your transmission. 

 

The sloppy oem mount isn't just for occupant comfort. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

I've now had my 1.4TSI Octavia estate for a few months.

 

Whilst the steering and handling aren't bad and it covers ground quite well if driven hard

 

My previous car was a Mk4 Mondeo estate,

 

We also have a 56plate Fiesta Zetec

 

The Octavia appears to display a slight reluctance to turn in

 

 

Sounds like you've bought the wrong car. A 1.4TSi estate was never meant to be driven hard so doesn't matter what you do you'll be disappointed.

 

The Fords you speak of handle very well, probably the best of all in their class, especially the mk4 Mondeo ( the latest Mondeo doesn't ! ). However hit a pot hole or road hump in either Ford and an appointment in A&E is required to reset your wrists. The number of times I almost 5hit myself when crashing over a hidden pothole in either my Fiesta or Focus.  And that's the thing, without expensive (and unreliable wizzardry, you can't have great handling and comfortable suspension. In my honest opinion, I think the Octavia gets both just about right.

 

But when you then say the Octavia has a slight reluctance to turn in...   Perhaps you should be thinking about a VRs rather than a 1.4tsi ?

 

Braces, thicker anti-roll bars, this, that and other? Go for it if you want but then you end up buggering the good things about the suspension.  As I say, it's probably as simple as buying the wrong car.

Edited 11 July, 2019 by Guest

[MC Bodge]

38 minutes ago, Scot5 said:

 

Sounds like you've bought the wrong car. A 1.4TSi estate was never meant to be driven hard so doesn't matter what you do you'll be disappointed.

 

The Fords you speak of handle very well, probably the best of all in their class, especially the mk4 Mondeo ( the latest Mondeo doesn't ! ). However hit a pot hole or road hump in either Ford and an appointment in A&E is required to reset your wrists. The number of times I almost 5hit myself when crashing over a hidden pothole in either my Fiesta or Focus.  And that's the thing, without expensive (and unreliable wizzardry, you can't have great handling and comfortable suspension. In my honest opinion, I think the Octavia gets both just about right.

 

But when you then say the Octavia has a slight reluctance to turn in...   Perhaps you should be thinking about a VRs rather than a 1.4tsi ?

 

Braces, thicker anti-roll bars, this, that and other? Go for it if you want but then you end up buggering the good things about the suspension.  As I say, it's probably as simple as buying the wrong car.

You appear to be taking this a little personally! 

 

FWIW, my Mk4 Mondeo (Edge model, non "sports" suspension) had a great ride and handling compromise on 16" wheels. Our Fiesta Zetec rides more comfortably over rough surfaces than my Octavia.... 

 

I have no need for a vRS. The 1.4 is a great, smooth engine with more than adequate performance and excellent economy. 

 

The handling isn't t bad at all. It's just not as good as I've had previously, albeit far better than my Mk1 vRS (which went like stink after a 98ron remap) 

 

I like to tinker with things and to tweak them a little. I'm not intending to fit ARBs at this stage, but it's interesting to know what is available and what others have done. 

 

Maybe it isn't the ideal car for me, but the ideal car - the standard Mondeo driver's car- doesn't really exist anymore. 

[MC Bodge]

12 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

For turn in and mid-corner response you need the geometry to be more precise.  Fitting a dogbone insert has made a huge difference to the handling of mine (not sure if the 1.4 has the same holes to fit the inserts but worth a look).  Another thing you can look at is the anti-roll ability of the rear.  There are a few things that can be done but the Neuspeed torsion bar looks to be the best option. 

As for pressures, I wouldn't go any higher than 36 in the front as you are risking further understeer.  Try raising the rear to 34/35 assuming you are onn17 inch wheels.

What is the dogbone insert for?  Engine mount?? 

[MarkyG82]

@MC Bodge yeah the dogbone mount is what it's known as on vag cars. There are 3 drivetrain mounts on our cars. 2 engine up top and 1 pendulum at the bottom stopping everything swing back and forth. The link looks like a dogbone and the bush has holes in. The inserts fill in some or all of the holes with either more rubber (polyurethane) or aluminium. It introduces more vibration into the car but gives a better throttle response and gear change. And I also found it improves understeer and overall feel of the ride.

[logiclee]

8 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

 

 

FWIW, my Mk4 Mondeo (Edge model, non "sports" suspension) had a great ride and handling compromise

 

Yep agree,

 

Some manufacturers are able to get that balance right. A supple ride, with good handling, balance and steering feel.

 

The Mk4 Mondeo did, the last Fiesta, MX5, Lotus Elise, Mazda 6 and some of the premium more expensive premium brands ( 3 Series, XE). Usually sports suspension and big wheels ruins the balance.

 

The Mk3 Octy has a crashy edge to the ride but the handling is just competent and feel is lacking. But that's pretty much VAG and the Octy has bargain basic MQB suspension components. More expensive MQB models not only have more sophisticated suspension setups but also alloy components instead of steel and better bushing.

 

Lee

[MC Bodge]

11 hours ago, logiclee said:

The Mk3 Octy has a crashy edge to the ride but the handling is just competent and feel is lacking. But that's pretty much VAG and the Octy has bargain basic MQB suspension components. More expensive MQB models not only have more sophisticated suspension setups but also alloy components instead of steel and better bushing.

Yes. The Octavia isn't bad in isolation (although the boom/resonance through the body is annoying), It does everything OK. It's just by comparison with a 13 year old basic supermini that the ride and handling are shown up. 

 

My Octavia is more composed when fully laden. 

[Alex-W]

The Octavia corners flatter than my Accord, but you definitely can't feel as much.  I honestly don't know which would have have more outright grip mind.

 

I certainly feel more confident pushing my Accord, even though it's a big car its nimble, but then it's a built as a driver's car, even if it is 20 years old.

 

Compared to our 61 plate Mazda 6 Sport, which is ultimately a large percentage Mondeo under the skin, I'd again say the Mazda has more feel than the Octavia, however you can feel the weight in the bends if you push it in that thing, being a 1550kg deisel.  The Octavia could definitely go round a corner faster.

 

[logiclee]

1 hour ago, Alex-W said:

Compared to our 61 plate Mazda 6 Sport, which is ultimately a large percentage Mondeo under the skin, I'd again say the Mazda has more feel than the Octavia, however you can feel the weight in the bends if you push it in that thing, being a 1550kg deisel.  The Octavia could definitely go round a corner faster.

 

 

Our XF on 19's  is much firmer than our Mk3 Elegance on 17's. There's less roll on corners and at low speed around town you can feel there's less give in the suspension. 

 

But the XF is never crashy over potholes and ridges like the Octy is and as the speed rises it isn't unsettled mid corner like the Octy is.  That  probably has more to do with the double wishbone front and multilink rear suspension.  The high speed ride is far superior in the XF on any road. Feel wise and balance the XF is leagues ahead but the front wheels only steer and the weight distribution is near perfect.

Where the Octy is better is quick changes of direction, kerbweight on the Octy is 1300kg and nearer 1800kg on the XF.

 

But to be fair the list price on the Octavia was around £20k and the XF was £45k. the Octavia has similar interior space and a bigger boot.

Edited 12 July, 2019 by logiclee