Oil / Gas and Electricity generating companies are not stupid.

 

Use the Oil & Gas for premium products and not just to heat homes or fuel vehicles that can use renewables.

 

Oil capital of the UK if not Europe / EU.

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

interestingly, whatever fuel you use, slippery is good as it requires less of it. That plus it makes for a quieter car too.

 

so changing the tryes applies to all cars. Yes the car is unlikely to be that good in the real world, but the fleet of brick style cars we seem to have at the moment is daft too.

 

I think my point on drag was lost in translation. 

If you had a mk3 octavia 1.5tsi dsg verses a mk4 1.5tsi dsg on the same size and type of tyres, how much better would the mk4 be on fuel in real world driving. Probably not a lot. 

I wish to avoid yet another thread descending into tit for tat arguement, my overall view was the slight reduction in drag was nothing to get excited about and wouldn't even factor in my vehicle choices. Mpg (and range for EV's) surely tells you all you need to know about a given vehicles efficiency regardless of drag coefficient. 

 

Plus, if there is as much artistic license in operation with drag figures as VAG has with co2 and mpg then it's probably total BS anyway. It's not like we can check can we. 

And today it's Jakubs turn to pick a number from a hat for the mk4 octy drag figure. 

Edited 13 November, 20196 yr by Gmac983

1 hour ago, Gmac983 said:

Charging in minutes is subject to a functioning fast charger being available, not on a standard 13amp plug that many so called charging points use. 

 

What about whole life efficiency in regards production of an EV's batteries? I recall reading an article about the prius when it first came out that as far as whole life efficiency and environmental impact an old series 2 or series 3 land rover doing sub 20mpg for its 30 year life was better for the environment than a "green" prius. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, I very much like the idea of EV's as well as fuel cell ( just not hybrids) but the infrastructure is decades away from cover the UKs motoring needs. 

One has to stop thinking with the petrol station mentality. 

 

With EV, there's 2 types of charging: 

- destination slow charging, where speed doesn't matter, you park and charge, you come back to a full car. For most people, this happens overnight, during cheaper off peak period. 

- en-route rapid charging, where speed matters. Over a 400 miles trip, you'd always want to stop at least once to attend to your bodily functions, during this time, the car would have more than enough time to be 80% charged. 

 

So if you have an EV that can comfortably cover your typical daily mileage. You wouldn't even need to think about refuelling it, just plug it in overnight. 

In bold because let's be honest, not a lot of people drives 200+ miles on a daily basis. I think 200 miles is more than enough, as long as rapid charging infrastructure can be relied upon. (ha! currently far from reliable from my experience) 

 

In that sense, the infrastructure and EV themselves, at least for driveway owners, is more than ready for mass adoption. But for those who don't have driveways, EV is far from reality, unfortunately. Either supermarket and workplace need to be blanketed with destination chargers, or hydrogen needs to co-exist to satisfy everyone. 

 

EV is part of the solution, but may not the whole solution. 

 

 

Your article must be really out of date if it talks about when Prius first came out. 

Research today suggests whole-life CO2 emission of EV is always lower than ICE counterparts. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_aspects_of_the_electric_car#Environmental_impact_of_manufacturing

But I think most importantly, EV won't puff harmful gasses into your face, and it's available right now. The Skoda CityGo EV is the perfect local-runabout for multi-car families. 

 

1 hour ago, Gmac983 said:

For example windfarms and tidal arrays are being paid to stop producing electricity at low periods. Why not utilize this time to produce hydrogen, either to be used as a fuel or to store electricity for peak periods. 

EV can help with that, by having Vehicle-2-Grid capability and provide grid services when parked. Instead of having to build and maintain hydrogen energy storage facilities, distributed network of EV batteries can be used to help balance the grid. 

 

Of course, this tech is quite far off in the future. But remember, EV is part of the solution for our energy demands. 

56 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

If you had a mk3 octavia 1.5tsi dsg verses a mk4 1.5tsi dsg on the same size and type of tyres, how much better would the mk4 be on fuel in real world driving. Probably not a lot. 

Not a lot. No. Considering ICE are very efficient at higher speeds. 

 

But for EV, the differences will be HUGE. EV motor are less efficient the faster you go. 

 

This change in Cd might just be for their hybrid version to get most miles out of electric mode. As someone previously said it's not across the whole range, So may be none of the engine powered ones will get this headline figure. 

5 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Your article must be really out of date if it talks about when Prius first came out.

 

Speaks for itself really. I didn't imply otherwise. 

 

There are too many "politicians" on here who wish to twist and turn every comment for an advantage. 

 

Also I more or less agree with what you are saying. 

 

But until fast charging is commonly available everywhere EV's will continue to be a minority sport. As will fuel cell due to lack of filling stations and current up front vehicle costs. 

The comment about destination charging speed not being an issue is not true I am afraid.

 

drive from full 400 miles to meeting, then back.

 

so leave full

- charge on motorway so you can get there.

- charge slowly maybe at customer and pray you can make the next fast charger.

- charge again on motorway

- charge again if you didn’t get enough juice at the customer.

 

so destination needs to be able to half fill all the cars in the car park that need it in approx 30-60minutes, ideally fill it.

 

Plus that’s a hell of a lot of power for even 50 cars, never mind the thousands at many companies.

 

the infrastructure to deliver that is years off. So if you want clean local air ASAP, then fuel cell is the route of least change quickest benefit.

 

getting 95% good enough, then looking at 100%, is better than striving for 100% on day one and it taking 10+ years to do anything.

Ask any it/software team.

 

then look at the bbc article and say that batteries are not terrible for the environment.

 

plus once the UK has used up that cobalt and the same again, what does the rest of the world do.

 

as for the home infrastructure comment. When 3phase is at every home and you can run the house plus 1 or 2 21kW car chargers then that’s a start.

 

then as you already said, what about those with no drives.

finally a hydrogen fuel cell won’t puff gasses in your face either. Emissions are water which could be condensed to heat the car and collected or run down the drains, which are existing infrastructure .

 

this will be interesting when the mk2 is available in a couple of years:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/honda/fcv-clarity/first-drives/honda-clarity-fuel-cell-2017-review

Edited 13 November, 20196 yr by cheezemonkhai

Further to destination charging (whilst at work). It maybe plausible for public sector workers where public money might fund adequate charging points but for the rest of us private sector dudes how many private businesses will pay for charging points for their employees? 

Businesses not looking at taking advantages of the Grants & Loans from the Scottish Government, or actually Tax Payers are maybe not being simply clever.

That is for vehicles and chargers.

& then 6 Year interest free loans for purchase of Electric cars / vans / Motor Cycles / Scooters for private use.

Grants for home chargers. 

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/businesses-organisations/transport/electric-vehicles-chargeplace-scotland

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/16/dundee-green-revolution-charging-hubs-electric-cabs-scotland

 

Edited 13 November, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

£500 off a piddly little 7kw charger, that has to be a smart charger with connectivity is hardly an incentive.

 

From empty most cars would not be full 8 hours later.

 

but again where is all this extra night time electric going to come from?

 

If they want grants to incentivise me, then how about I pay for the charger and you pay for a solar/wind array and 3 phase to my house.

 

if they want grants to incentivise businesses, give them tax breaks once 75% of their parking has fast charging available at bay.

Edited 13 November, 20196 yr by cheezemonkhai

Scotland needs more storage for the easily generated electricity since it goes to waste with not enough storage schemes or using it to produce hydrogen.

Energy rich and yet the RoUK is paying so much to import from the RoI and Continental Europe because they are contracted t

 

 

That 7 kw charger is all some might need to top up.  Free workplace or public charging and a car parked overnight needing a top up.

It does those with Hybrids even.

 

If it does not suit and you have no solar or battery storage at your home then thats just how things are.

 

My only Petrol / Diesel home storage is in some Jerry Cans when there is rationing or power cuts, or bank / ATMs are down.

That happens sometimes in Scotland on the odd occasions / locations.

That is when you appreciate an old type filling station like at Blair Atholl.

 

The biggest group buyer of vehicles in the UK is Motability Finance and more leasing are going for an EV.

The £2,000 Advance Payment on a £35,000 car seems to be suiting some going for a BMW i3, 

or less for a Smart / Hyundai or even more than £2,000 and their weekly allowance.

Next year the SEAT Mii / Skoda Citigo should be available on the scheme.

https://www.pod-point.com/guides/driver/motability-grant-electric-cars

 

 

 

Edited 13 November, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

There is the security aspect to charging points as well in unmanned locations. 

Charging points in a local town centre are regularly vandalised, the local neds find it a great wiz to super glue the sockets so they cannot be used or to unplug a users car so that when they return to their vehicle they have not been charged, in other words an EV left unattended whilst on charge is vulnerable, or more so than other conventional vehicles just parked. 

As charging points become more common this will only likely escalate. 

Where as a manned hydrogen filling station (much like a current petrol station) will have less of an issue. 

Edited 14 November, 20196 yr by Gmac983

@Gmac983

Indeed.

EV Charge places as Self Service unmanned / woman filling stations should be covered by 'winterised / vandal proof CCTV'.

 

Something the Scottish Government could get on with like getting on with Mobile Phone and Radio Reception nation wide.

Also having Portable Batteries that can be moved to communities where the EV Chargers go down, and to points on roads like the A9 / A92 if there are snow gates closed, long diversions in place because of landslides / flooding / snow etc.

 

Hopeless in an EV with overnight or even daytime road closures and diversions that can be 90 miles or more.

 

http://trafficscotland.org/livetrafficcameras

http://trafficscotland.org/weatherstations

 

If Audi can do a cheat and have Mobile Charging Stations so can Transport Scotland get them bought in and available for BEAR or AMEY to get them where needed..

 

The UK Charging is as crap as this.

A standard pay for what electricity you want with a Debit / Credit card or 'No Charge for charging' but daily charge like with home Gas / Electric home tariffs is whats needed.

 

 

Edited 14 November, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

15 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

The comment about destination charging speed not being an issue is not true I am afraid.

 

drive from full 400 miles to meeting, then back.

 

so leave full

- charge on motorway so you can get there.

- charge slowly maybe at customer and pray you can make the next fast charger.

- charge again on motorway

- charge again if you didn’t get enough juice at the customer.

 

so destination needs to be able to half fill all the cars in the car park that need it in approx 30-60minutes, ideally fill it.

Is that typical usage profile of most car users? 

As I've said previously. EV isn't for everyone, not currently and may not be ever.

 

But for vast majority, especially driveway owners and double especially for 2 car family as primary daily car with a secondary long-range car, EV is perfect and any second hand EV on the market will do really well as local runabout. 

 

Case in point: my wife loves our cheap first-gen Nissan Leaf. She can pre-heat the car before going out, get in and drive 1-2 miles instead of walking or even driving in the cold. We both has a LOT more confidence driving the EV locally thanks to its instant power, able to slip into any gap easily. Locally, we never think about its range, just plug it in every night like smart phones. 

 

14 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

£500 off a piddly little 7kw charger, that has to be a smart charger with connectivity is hardly an incentive.

 

From empty most cars would not be full 8 hours later.

Charging at home is the biggest benefit for EV. You don't have to charge from empty and you don't need to charge to full. 

If you have 400 miles EV, 7 kW for 7 hours charge 200 miles. If you arrive home over weekend empty, charge 200 miles every day but drives 100 miles commute each day. Your car will be full by Thursday morning ready for another weekend's long drive. 

 

Car manufacturers are also contributing towards home charger install. Nissan partnered with Podpoint to install my charger for free. Generally, a home charger install costs around £250 after grant. The hardware is not fancy, just a few safety check electronics, it's mostly cheaply made using plastic. It's only this price because of the govt grant. I've had a 2 gang external socket installed near the charger for £140, using exact same 40 amp armored cable running similar distance. 

 

13 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

Charging points in a local town centre are regularly vandalised, the local neds find it a great wiz to super glue the sockets so they cannot be used or to unplug a users car so that when they return to their vehicle they have not been charged, in other words an EV left unattended whilst on charge is vulnerable, or more so than other conventional vehicles just parked. 

I find it unlikely what you are saying is true. All EV can lock their cable as well charging points, unless something is broken. If charger is glued and can't be used, a parked EV is same as every other car. 

 

On top of cable locking. Most EV will also have smart phone app that notifies owner if/when charging stops. All chargers will have safety protocol in place to detect fault and cut power. 

 

So unattended charging EV will not be more vulnerable than other cars. Except for the charging flap on some, they look easily broken off if vandals really wanted. It's not much different to baseball bat to door mirror for other cars. 

@wyx087

It is Chargers being vandalised.

 

A vandalised Charger in Aberlour Aberdeenshire was down for long enough and a PITA to those that were counting on charging there.

Local Authorities in Scotland and the Government talk plenty, and are damn hopeless.

Where the roads / locals are regularly disrupted by Convoys of Wind Turbines the EV Charger Points should be installed and kept maintained and available as a priority and at no cost to the local communities.

 

3 months. 

The so near the A96. Main route Aberdeen to the Moray Firth.

Edited 14 November, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

So basically home charging is useless for long distance drivers. Also the grants are now only on smart chargers.

hydrogen has no issues around charge speed/distance and a 15-30 mile battery which you could plug in would quickly charge for the 1 mile runs to the shop.

 

fuel cell would basically be the range extender for a small capacity electric vehicle.

 

It would be interesting to know when they will move away from driveshafts and put motors in the wheel.

 

Now his holiness has chosen Germany, maybe we should tempt Honda no not leave the uk with hydrogen economy grants, particularly for r and d into green generation and use.

 

Reducing the pollution requires EV's, Hydrogen powered, Petrols and Diesels.

Better public transport / hubs for last mile delivery etc, not something happening to rural areas though as public transport gets cut back.

 

Lighter vehicles and smaller ones will make a difference. Less kidology testing WLTP / RDE / RDE 2 with vehicles that have not been running at revenue weight.

Big heavy elephants of Hybrids that are used by just a driver for work use but plugged in at Public Chargers is just a joke really if supposedly a 'greener vehicles for business users' getting tax benefits and parking priorities but still running on petrol through towns and cities.

 

The Kidology will end eventually as it had to with BMW i3's and range extender engines installed.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

I find it unlikely what you are saying is true. All EV can lock their cable as well charging points, unless something is broken. If charger is glued and can't be used, a parked EV is same as every other car. 

 

I have many character flaws, a liar is not one of them. 

 

It's a fairly well documented subject in the press if you bother to look as Roottootemoot has just shown. 

 

Some what naive comment really. Locks are only for honest folk. Also vandals won't give a toss that you may or may not have an app monitoring your charging when they snap off your vehicles plug just for the fun of it. 

 

Obviously all the conventional cars out there are just as vulnerable to vandalism as EV's however its just another element that can be f*cked with, that I thought was my fairly clear point. 

 

Edited 14 November, 20196 yr by Gmac983

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

So basically home charging is useless for long distance drivers. 

No, it's not useless. Home chargers are able to charge overnight, while you sleep. You plug in and forget about it. 

 

Of course, unless your long distance drives are done EVERY SINGLE DAY. Of course hydrogen would be useful for your very specific needs. 

But that is not the usual usage pattern for most people's vehicles. Most people's cars sit parked a very high percentage of time. 

 

45 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

It's a fairly well documented subject in the press if you bother to look as Roottootemoot has just shown. 

 

Some what naive comment really. Locks are only for honest folk. Also vandals won't give a toss that you may or may not have an app monitoring your charging when they snap off your vehicles plug just for the fun of it. 

It is physically impossible to remove the cable from either end of the vehicle. It's not a pad-lock, the locking mechanism is built into the charging sockets. 

 

Broken charger, yes. Vandalised charging points, yes. But the owner wouldn't have started a charge if that were the case. 

If the owner have found a working charger, and started a charge, it is totally impossible to unplug EV's. 

It would be useless for me and a large proportion of the workforce who gave to commute to work.

 

also when you arrive to find the charger vandalised/broken, then what do you do if you’re too low to reach the next charge point?

@cheezemonkhai

How far are your regular daily drives, and are 200 + mile trips something you are often doing?

Where about in the UK do you travel?

 

I do 450 mile journeys regularly and decided that some can be done with a EV because of suitable charging at 200 miles or there about.

When not suitable because of locations or weather a dirty diesel will do the job.

Edited 14 November, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

I had a 13A extension lead out of my workshop window one time to a workmate's Tesla when he was suffering severe range anxiety one day. Got pretty warm. 

He's sold it and got a diesel Saab now...

Edited 14 November, 20196 yr by Wino

2 minutes ago, Wino said:

I had a 13A extension lead out of my workshop window one time to a workmate's Tesla when he was suffering severe range anxiety one day. Got pretty warm. 

He's sold it and got a diesel Saab now...

I get the same range anxiety when my 336bhp Octavia tells me I have 5 miles of unleaded left. Driving Miss Daisy has nothing on me then.

17 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

It would be useless for me and a large proportion of the workforce who gave to commute to work.

 

also when you arrive to find the charger vandalised/broken, then what do you do if you’re too low to reach the next charge point?

Daily commute is said to be no more than 60 minutes on average. https://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5300

Let's say 90 minutes daily commute to cover up to the 85% percentile (meaning covering vast majority people), that means ~90 miles on the motorway (average speed of 60 mph is very high), so a 200 miles EV and 7kW overnight or workplace charging can cover 85% people's daily commute.

That is surely a large proportion of workforce who have to commute to work? 

 

 

I do home charging vast majority of the time. Just like fossil fuel cars, I don't arrive at public charger completely empty. But unfortunately due to current highly unreliable nature of public charging points, I have to have plan B. 

I do, however, allow the car to get dangrously low when driving home, because I'm certain I can get a charge at home. Something unfortunately not possible with petrol station model for fossil fuel or hydrogen cars. 

 

 

I didn't know SAAB are still selling cars! Swapping a Tesla to a 2012 SAAB is pretty big step backwards. 

Edited 14 November, 20196 yr by wyx087

So what's the craic with all the subject matter on Google regarding EV drivers returning to their vehicles to find it has been unplugged so someone else can use the charging point. Do they automatically unlock once a certain charge percentage (100%?) has been reached? 

 

Wether it is a built in locking mechanism or a bloody great padlock, neither will stop them being broken out of spite. 

 

Also what is your plan B? You didn't say. 

 

Maybe it's trumpesk fake news. 

Edited 14 November, 20196 yr by Gmac983

44 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

49 minutes ago, Wino said:

 

I get the same range anxiety when my 336bhp Octavia tells me I have 5 miles of unleaded left. Driving Miss Daisy has nothing on me then.

 

Just chugg her along on the starter motor, then you can call her the first range extender hybrid vrs 😊 as long as you haven't got one off the bad moll batteries that is😂