From Wikipedia: Direct-shift gearbox

 

"S mode

(...) This mode may not be ideal to use when wanting to drive in a sedate manner; nor when road conditions are very slippery, due to ice, snow or torrential rain – because loss of tire traction may be experienced (wheel spin during acceleration, and may also result in road wheel locking during downshifts at high engine rpms under closed throttle). On 4motion or quattro-equipped vehicles this may be partially offset by the drivetrain maintaining full-time engagement of the rear differential in S mode, so power distribution under loss of front-wheel traction may be marginally improved."

 

Can anyone confirm that Karoq 1.5 TSI DSG 4x4 does indeed maintain full-time engagement of the rear differential in S mode (not just invoked by front wheels spins, as in D mode)?

 

 

Edited 13 June, 20205 yr by agedbriar

An interesting question. I have also been wondering if Eco mode keeps a 4x4 Karoq in FWD. Wouldn't it be helpful if there was a light on the dashboard to show when 4x4 is engaged?

 

Chris

2 hours ago, agedbriar said:

From Wikipedia: Direct-shift gearbox

 

"S mode

(...) This mode may not be ideal to use when wanting to drive in a sedate manner; nor when road conditions are very slippery, due to ice, snow or torrential rain – because loss of tire traction may be experienced (wheel spin during acceleration, and may also result in road wheel locking during downshifts at high engine rpms under closed throttle). On 4motion or quattro-equipped vehicles this may be partially offset by the drivetrain maintaining full-time engagement of the rear differential in S mode, so power distribution under loss of front-wheel traction may be marginally improved."

Not relevant to the question, but a point worth making IMHO - that's been written by someone only thinking about Haldex based systems, VAG still make some vehicles with Torsen based systems - which that comment won't apply to as they are permanent 4WD but with variable torque split.

 

Quote

Can anyone confirm that Karoq 1.5 TSI DSG 4x4 does indeed maintain full-time engagement of the rear differential in S mode (not just invoked by front wheels spins, as in D mode)?

Answering that is going to need knowledge of the firmware in the Haldex controller, is there an SSP (Self Study Programme) that describes the Haldex version fitted to the Karoq? The Karoq Vehicle Presentation Part I mentions SSP 70 "All-Wheel Drive with Generation IV Haldex Clutch" although I might have expected the Karoq to have Generation V Haldex?

 

Link to SSP 70

Edited 13 June, 20205 yr by PetrolDave

Good thought.

 

I have the SSP515 (Golf 2013 running gear and four wheel drive) which is the SSP the Tiguan's SSP refers to. But while that describes the sensors activating the Haldex clutch, it only mentions the wheel speed sensors and accelerometers, so it would seem there is no input from the Mode switch.

 

2 hours ago, agedbriar said:

From Wikipedia:

On 4motion or quattro-equipped vehicles this may be partially offset

 

5 minutes ago, CJJE said:

I have the SSP515 (Golf 2013 running gear and four wheel drive) which is the SSP the Tiguan's SSP refers to. But while that describes the sensors activating the Haldex clutch, it only mentions the wheel speed sensors and accelerometers, so it would seem there is no input from the Mode switch.

The WIkipedia article does only say "may" in it's defence.

So having read the SSPs, it looks like the Haldex clutch only sends power to the rear wheels when it senses the need to stop the front wheels spinning. If you accelerate hard enough in any driving mode to start the front wheels spinning, then milliseconds later the Haldex will transfer up to 50% of the torque to the rear wheels to help out.

 

And if you drive gently in any mode (and the front wheels aren't on ice), then the Haldex will be disengaged with no drive going to the rear wheels. 

 

Presumably the increased fuel consumption for 4x4 cars is down to the need to spin the central shaft from the gearbox back to the Haldex regardless of the need to send drive to the rear wheels, and the consequential inertia losses (unless the DSG is coasting).

 

Chris 

Really the fuel consumption difference is neither here nor there between FWD and AWD other than Official figures from very dodgy tests.

If the cars are at the same weight they pretty much do the same economy, and if you put more people and stuff in the FWD vehicle and do the same speed as the AWD with just a driver in you might use more fuel.

That's good to know, so I shouldn't be too concerned then about moving from my Golf SV FWD car to my new Karoq then? As I only do around 9,000 miles a year now, I was thinking I could afford a bigger fuel bill for the added safety factor, and the 4x4 Karoq on summer tyres should be comparable with my FWD Golf on All-Season tyres in winter. (And after the factory provided tyres have worn out in 3 years or so, then I can switch back onto Michelin Cross-Climates again!)

 

Chris  

57 minutes ago, CJJE said:

That's good to know, so I shouldn't be too concerned then about moving from my Golf SV FWD car to my new Karoq then? As I only do around 9,000 miles a year now, I was thinking I could afford a bigger fuel bill for the added safety factor, and the 4x4 Karoq on summer tyres should be comparable with my FWD Golf on All-Season tyres in winter. (And after the factory provided tyres have worn out in 3 years or so, then I can switch back onto Michelin Cross-Climates again!)

 

Chris  

 

Your Golf with All season tyres would easily outperform a Karoq 4x4 on summer tyres in winter conditions. 

4x4 on summer tyres in snow, just means you have the possibility of spinning 4 wheels, and when trying to stop is no advantage at all.

6 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Link to SSP 70

Thank you for that link PetrolDave, lots of interesting stuff there.

4 hours ago, CJJE said:

That's good to know, so I shouldn't be too concerned then about moving from my Golf SV FWD car to my new Karoq then? As I only do around 9,000 miles a year now, I was thinking I could afford a bigger fuel bill for the added safety factor, and the 4x4 Karoq on summer tyres should be comparable with my FWD Golf on All-Season tyres in winter. (And after the factory provided tyres have worn out in 3 years or so, then I can switch back onto Michelin Cross-Climates again!)

 

Chris  

 

Or you could get yourself another set of wheels with winter tyres.  I think I paid £350 for these Audi Q3 alloys complete with good Pirelli Sottozero M+S from a guy on the Facebook sales page. I believe he'd paid about £1300 for them, supplied by his Audi dealer. The Pirellis weren't great and they've now been replaced by Dunlop Winter Sport D5 as seen here. In my experience, albeit on our previous Tiguans, these make the car pretty unstoppable in anything up to 12"of snow. 

 

Edited 13 June, 20205 yr by Schtum

3 hours ago, Kenny R said:

 

Your Golf with All season tyres would easily outperform a Karoq 4x4 on summer tyres in winter conditions. 

4x4 on summer tyres in snow, just means you have the possibility of spinning 4 wheels, and when trying to stop is no advantage at all.

I really wish that more manufacturers would fit all-season tyres to their cars now... or at least let you choose them! It's just too expensive to buy a new car and immediately get rid of the new summer tyres!!

2 minutes ago, Schtum said:

 

Or you could get yourself another set of wheels with winter tyres.  I think I paid £350 for these Audi Q3 alloys complete with good Pirelli Sottozero M+S from a guy on the Facebook sales page. I believe he'd paid about £1300 for them, supplied by his Audi dealer. The Pirellis weren't great and they've now been replaced by Dunlop Winter Sport D5 as seen here. In my experience, albeit on our previous Tiguans, these make the car pretty unstoppable in anything up to 12"of snow. 

 

 

I did that with my Golf Plus, and kept them to use with my Golf SV. (They're too small of course for the Karoq). But I switched to all-season last year after I did my back in changing them over, and the Conti winter tyres became time-expired rather than worn out.

8 minutes ago, CJJE said:

I did that with my Golf Plus, and kept them to use with my Golf SV. (They're too small of course for the Karoq). But I switched to all-season last year after I did my back in changing them over, and the Conti winter tyres became time-expired rather than worn out.

 

I know that feeling.  I put a set of new Michelin Crossclimate+ on the Yeti which I bought earlier this year.  Those Audi Q3 wheels had already seen service on my wife's previous Tiguan and there's still a set of old, 16" aftermarket alloys with Tiguan size D4 Winter Sports on them sitting in the garage.  Then there are two sets of alloys for my Golf; the original 17's and a set of Audi A3 16's with Kumho winter tyres on them plus another spare set of Audi 17's that need refubished.  

 

My next door neighbour who tunes and competes in Subarus was good enough to swap over the wheels on the Karoq and the Golf a few weeks ago in deference to my ageing back.