Really confused by this! I have a 2016 RS230, the pre-facelift one with VAQ.

 

When cruising along at a steady speed, ie highway, if I push the loud pedal to the floor/close to it the RPM will quickly rise up ~500 as the boost comes on, then fall back down to the expected RPM and accelerate as normal. The acceleration feels strong from the moment boost comes on, but the RPM (needle and engine sound) behaves as if something is slipping, almost like a TC auto kicking down a gear then shifting back up, or like I've partially kicked the clutch. The thing is that the TCS isn't tripping, and I doubt it has the grunt to do so anyway at for example 80km/h in 6th on dry tarmac with 2wk old P Zeroes. It pulls so strong that I can't imagine the clutch is buggered, plus there's no smell, and it engages wonderfully at all times.

 

Seems most noticeable in 4th-6th, but can't rule out the other gears (moves too quick to reliably see it there). Just to reiterate, to me at least the acceleration/pull feels completely smooth, it's just the RPM behaving weird. It's not like there's a sudden surge and then the power backs off.

 

Just throwing it out there, could a lack of proper VAQ maintenance cause something like this?

 

Any suggestions appreciated!

I could easily imagine a clutch issue.

& the VAQ does require servicing with these cars.

If the revs rise but the speed doesn't, the most likely culprit is the clutch is slipping. Clutch slip is typically noticed first in higher gears, where you're trying to use peak engine torque at low revs to accelerate rather than dropping a gear.

 

With a fully engaged clutch, your revs and speed are directly linked, one can't change independent of the other.

 

The manuals have a reputation for slightly weak clutches, so this would be my guess.

4 minutes ago, Kenai said:

If the revs rise but the speed doesn't,

 

That's what's odd, it still pulls really strong! Perhaps it's only just starting to slip...

It will still pull unless the clutch is completely disconnected but with a fully healthy clutch the revs and speed should not change independently of each other at all (unless you slip the clutch yourself with the pedal).

 

 

This seems similar to what you describe, particulary from 50s onwards, flooring it in 5th and you see the revs raise then drop.

Yeah that's very close, but mine only rises once instead of multiple times and doesn't jump up by as much. Oh well, the clutch in my GTi6 has been buggered for years and I've kept that going so I should be able to eke a bit more life out of this one yet 🤔

 

58 minutes ago, Kenai said:

The manuals have a reputation for slightly weak clutches, so this would be my guess.

 

Is there a go-to upgrade for that?

Ive just started a thread re clutch for what sounds like exactly the same as you. Only just started happening mind. Mine is a manual 220 2016 but remapped to 300.think its most likely start of clutch slip unfortunately but could maybe be pleasantly surprised if anyone can shed a different light. Like yours happens one off bit of a rev increase then power goes down, and only very occassionally in 5th or 6th when trying to do the likes of an overtake on motorway etc

definitely the clutch slipping.  To prolong it try changing down a gear before accelerating.  Many people use the torque of the more powerful engines to accelerate on the motorway without changing down.  This is where most of the damage is done.  In a higher gear the resistance to rotate is greater making it put more strain on the clutch mating surface.

Thanks. Good advice. I asdume its safe enough to not rush completely into getting a new clutch fitted? 

I'd say so.  Just try not to boot it in too high a gear.  Especially as with the tsi you should be able to reach the speed limit in 3rd with its high rev range.  A tdi wouldn't be so accepting with a narrower power/torque band.

Update on this issue- where I live, dealers can't just sell dodgy cars and pretend it's all fine. Because it's a clutch they have put up a fight of course, but I've persisted. I've had a VAG independent look at the car, and the selling dealer had Skoda have a look. VAG garage agree clutch is on the way out, Skoda reckon they couldn't get it to slip. Admittedly the day I dropped it off to them I couldn't get it to slip myself, but the day I got it back it was slipping as before. Called Skoda guy and he is suitably bemused. I've since tried to record a video of it for him, and for whatever reason it appears to be a sporadic problem.... Regardless, I did manage to capture it happening over the weekend.

 

 

To mix things up a bit more, today Skoda guy said his tech told him there is "an active tune" on the car, which would certainly be news to me. If that's true then it would go some way to explaining why the car feels quicker than I think it should for 230 horsies, and perhaps why the dogbone mount insert I had fitted 2wks ago feels like it's no longer doing anything. I asked for specifics on this alleged tune but being 2nd hand information he didn't have any. After hearing this I went and bought an OBD2 dongle to log the boost pressure-

Idle  | -10.5psi
O'run | -11.6psi
1st   |  19.5psi
2nd   |  19.5psi
3rd   |  21.5psi
4th   |  22.4psi

That's WOT obviously, and seemed to peak at ~3,800RPM. Results repeated over multiple pulls. Didn't have high enough speed limits on hand to test 5th or 6th.

 

I'm this [] close to just pulling the trigger on a Sachs kit at this point, but at the same time I want to understand what the hell is going on with the car first!

Edited 31 August, 20205 yr by TrinityJay
F'in youtube

43 minutes ago, TrinityJay said:

Update on this issue- where I live, dealers can't just sell dodgy cars and pretend it's all fine. Because it's a clutch they have put up a fight of course, but I've persisted. I've had a VAG independent look at the car, and the selling dealer had Skoda have a look. VAG garage agree clutch is on the way out, Skoda reckon they couldn't get it to slip. Admittedly the day I dropped it off to them I couldn't get it to slip myself, but the day I got it back it was slipping as before. Called Skoda guy and he is suitably bemused. I've since tried to record a video of it for him, and for whatever reason it appears to be a sporadic problem.... Regardless, I did manage to capture it happening over the weekend.

 

 

To mix things up a bit more, today Skoda guy said his tech told him there is "an active tune" on the car, which would certainly be news to me. If that's true then it would go some way to explaining why the car feels quicker than I think it should for 230 horsies, and perhaps why the dogbone mount insert I had fitted 2wks ago feels like it's no longer doing anything. I asked for specifics on this alleged tune but being 2nd hand information he didn't have any. After hearing this I went and bought an OBD2 dongle to log the boost pressure-

Idle  | -10.5psi
O'run | -11.6psi
1st   |  19.5psi
2nd   |  19.5psi
3rd   |  21.5psi
4th   |  22.4psi

That's WOT obviously, and seemed to peak at ~3,800RPM. Results repeated over multiple pulls. Didn't have high enough speed limits on hand to test 5th or 6th.

 

I'm this [] close to just pulling the trigger on a Sachs kit at this point, but at the same time I want to understand what the hell is going on with the car first!

Isn't the standard boost something around 1.5 bar? those max. boost pressures look pretty close to that. 

I have no idea sadly! I've looked but can't find any solid figures.

Yep boost should peak around 15 - 17psi (these engines work on a torque targeting sort of program so it can vary depending on temps, fuel etc) so it looks like you have a stage 1 tune. The dealer won't know who's tune you have but they can see how many times the ecm has been flashed and match that up with their records. The clutches on these are pretty fragile as soon as you start winding the boost up🙄

Edited 3 September, 20205 yr by StealthRS245

As a slight aside, but a similar problem - I once had something like this on my Mk2 Cooper S (my icon) it was a rally car I built for competition in a couple of Internationals in '73. While out on a recce for the Safari Rally in New Caledonia, the engine revs increased without corresponding increase in speed - it turned out that the driveshaft splines had sheared inside the left-hand hub and the shaft 'wound up' the hub nut, after shearing the split-pin, until it was tight enough to lock the hub to the shaft! I drove most of a division (at least 6 special stages) like that before discovering the problem. I didn't have a LSD fitted. 

Edited 3 September, 20205 yr by Warrior193
punctuation

On 06/08/2020 at 08:46, e-Roottoot said:

I could easily imagine a clutch issue.

& the VAQ does require servicing with these cars.

VAQ oil change every 3 years

99% sure it's the clutch, as had exactly the same issue (with same setup) and posted back on here a while ago. The torque generated with a >280+ BHP map overrides the standard clutch friction in higher gears when lower in the rev range. Literally would copy and paste what @MarkyG82 said re: kicking down to a lower gear to prolong standard clutch use before you invest in a new clutch and the associated labour costs of upgrading it.

 

Skoda will not want to know, and as the standard car is supposedly set up for '230ps' as standard (usually baselined around 250-260 BHP OEM in the UK), any remapped car will void the warranty on the standard clutch. Hence why I went immediately to VAG tuning garages since I bought mine and not looked back.

 

If it's only happening intermittently, might be to do with heat - i.e. long vs short journeys.

 

The short-term fix is change down when accelerating hard. The longer-term one is replacing it with something like a Sachs Organic clutch.

3 hours ago, StealthRS245 said:

Yep boost should peak around 15 - 17psi

really @StealthRS245 , what did your Performance Monitor screen use to show, seen mine flicker 37.7psi tends to settle to 35ish though, just flickers on spool up

Thanks all for your comments 👍

To provide an update, video was sent to Skoda guy for review. He is hesitant to commit to it being the clutch, says it could be the unknown mystery tune doing something, or valve timing (???). Quite the stretch if you ask me, the disconnect between RPM and speed is clear as day. He wants to have the car come in for more testing.

 

 

7 hours ago, StealthRS245 said:

Yep boost should peak around 15 - 17psi (these engines work on a torque targeting sort of program so it can vary depending on temps, fuel etc) so it looks like you have a stage 1 tune.

 

Thanks for that! I had a lightbulb moment last night and looked up figures for the Mk7 GTi, where the prevailing wisdom mirrors what you just said.

I had an inkling that the ECU must place an artificial ceiling on torque in order to hit a single figure over such a broad range

 

 

4 hours ago, Ads230 said:

the standard car is supposedly set up for '230ps' as standard (usually baselined around 250-260 BHP OEM in the UK)

 

A bit like the Japanese 276HP gentleman's agreement you reckon?  

 

4 hours ago, Ads230 said:

If it's only happening intermittently, might be to do with heat - i.e. long vs short journeys.

 

The short-term fix is change down when accelerating hard. The longer-term one is replacing it with something like a Sachs Organic clutch.

 

I think it might be heat-related as well. From my readings it looks like some tunes limit boost until the oil is at temp, and it's been frightfully cold here the past month. I'm going to test this over the weekend.

11 hours ago, themanwithnoaim said:

really @StealthRS245 , what did your Performance Monitor screen use to show, seen mine flicker 37.7psi tends to settle to 35ish though, just flickers on spool up

The performance monitor is absolute pressure ie. doesn't account for barometric pressure which is somewhere around 14.5 psi. So that would be around 20-22 psi boost, guessing that's with your tuning box?

On 04/09/2020 at 04:42, StealthRS245 said:

The performance monitor is absolute pressure ie. doesn't account for barometric pressure which is somewhere around 14.5 psi. So that would be around 20-22 psi boost, guessing that's with your tuning box?

Revo Stage1 map nowdays, TBH it didn't add that much maybe, another 10 bhp

Another update-

 

Skoda guy that wanted to test the car again is now 2wks without contact, haven't tried to get in touch myself as testing for mystery tune issues and/or valve timing causing the revs to jump seems like a waste of time  Regardless, the slip was occurring more frequently so I went ahead and got Sachs' 550Nm kit fitted this week. Car is now a completely different beast! The pedal feels about as firm as my GTi6 so I'll get used to that, however she is bitey! Although I managed to get home without stalling  I did nearly smack my face into the windscreen trying to shift 3rd -> 2nd. Most importantly, no slip! I tried a few rolling pulls and it feels far more responsive, but now I'll have to be a good lad for a little while so it can settle in properly.

Good news.

 

From your first post it is clear it is inadequate clutch for the torque peaks of the engine, simple as that. 

 

Edited 23 September, 20205 yr by nidza

This does all sounds like a Turbo leak to me.  There was a guy with a Fabia who had similar issues and found that a gasket was not sealing properly which fixed his problem.  I'll see if I can find the thread.

 

1 hour ago, varaderoguy said:

This does all sounds like a Turbo leak to me

If there was turbo leak, it would be accompanied by a pretty obvious exhaust gas smell. Had one when the V-band on my turbo wasn't properly secured after adding the 3" downpipe on the Scorpion system. After being tightened, it was considerably better.

 

Everything else from the OP's thread seems directly related to the stock clutch not being adequate for the torque; which now seems fixed after a Sachs clutch upgrade