nowaday turbo'd cars drive very much like a diesel.in the vx' date=' the torque kicks in at 1900 rpm and then the added bonus of 200 bhp at i think 5500 rpm. the octy 2 vrs accelerating in a similar way. so the "mid range" arguement for a diesel tbh isnt really that valid nemore. (expecting some backfire from that comment). agreed they generally have better mpg. personally i do about 400 miles a week and the vx is costing about 10-15 quid more per week. so i could imagine something that wasnt so race bred closing the gap even more. (on the subject of mpg. what are the octy 2 vrs drivers averaging? my bruvs getting 26 mpg and he's not kaning it everywhere so why so low?)

-ho[/quote']

I certainly wouldn't agree with that, yes My golf turbo kicks in around the 2000rpm mark but the massive difference in torque from the diesel over the petrol is what makes the difference, and taking into account that the golf has 150bhp compared to the 140bhp in the octavia.

yes the diesel may have more torque. but the extra weight a diesel has does affect the outcome also if you include the short gearing. honestly i dont believe the "diesel mid-range" can be boasted about nemore. i had a fabia vrs.obvs diesel mid range.. whys it that i lost to a clio 182 in the mid range? i would offer my car for a mid range sprint trial but it would be unfair.

hobnob

I certainly wouldn't agree with that, yes My golf turbo kicks in around the 2000rpm mark but the massive difference in torque from the diesel over the petrol is what makes the difference, and taking into account that the golf has 150bhp compared to the 140bhp in the octavia.

take your current hot hatch affair. the astra vxr and focus st. there mid range is astonishing. find me a diesel car for around the same money whish has a quicker mid range?

admiddtely the quickest accelrating 30-70 car out there is a diesel vw touareg.

ho:thumbup:

You lost to a clio 182 because they weigh about the same as a large biscuit and are unbelievably quick (I have one BTW)

I'm just going of my golf (150Bhp turbo) v a new golf (140bhp diesel) the new golf leaves me standing... and I have had that on about 4 mk5 golfs so its not just one is chipped. From the traffic lights I would win but doing 50 on a country road they win hands down

Remember we are comparing similar BHP cars not price... The Clio we have has cup suspension and cost

Depends how you drive, torque is an "illusion". Yes mine, being a diesel, has bags of torque, however, in a petrol car with the same power / PWR I am quicker in the petrol car. Diesel just seems to be faster, if the petrol driver decides to use his power and the full rev range he will win, purely down to gear changes. If however the petrol guy decides to play the diesel game and rely on torque he will lose.

Willing to prove it if someone wants to "play" and lend me a petrol 140 bhp Octy to play against a Golf.

doing 50 on a country road they win hands down

Au contair mon ami, you slot the Golf down to 2nd and you will pull away

You lost to a clio 182 because they weigh about the same as a large biscuit

And, like a large biscuit, they crumble very easily and go out of date quite quickly as well.

BTW, seen the latest customer surveys in Auto Express. Renault really are poor. :thumbdwn:

If I slot the golf down to second and rag the **** of the golf it still wouldn't pull away from the diesel...in fact I would probably redline it before I'd started moving

And' date=' like a large biscuit, they crumble very easily and go out of date quite quickly as well.

BTW, seen the latest customer surveys in Auto Express. Renault really are poor. :thumbdwn:[/quote']

Renault may be poor but the 182 certainly isn't, well the new one is awful but the old model is fantastic... Nothing faster for the price

Audi has just won an international GT race (I think it was one of the American GT/le Mans type races) with their diesel and are taking it to Le Mans.

Torque is directly related to power by the way, as Power is really just a version of Torque x revs. My diesel Octy

Indeed horse power is a product of torque (HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252).

Gearing is also important.

Look at a modern F1 car, your TDI has more torque than it does

But I reckon I'd nail yo ar5e at pretty much any performance metric you'd want to offer up

Look at a modern F1 car' date=' your TDI has more torque than it does

[/quote']

Not too sure about that one it must be a pretty close call, although I take your point, that

agree with the above........ but soo unfair...f1 car- latest technology-price?????

not waging a war but hobnob..... id be willing to bet a free pint(im cheap) that none of the 200 bhp diesels out there (if anyone owns 1) would stand a chance in mid range, 0-60 and v-max against for say my car or a caterham super 7 csr. ie less bhp... and less torque..

theres alot more to a way a car performs in mid range or 0-60 than just bhp or lbs of torque. uve got to conisder aerodynamics, power to weight, gearing, driver skills etc.

-ho

I think TaviaRS is on the right track. Although HP is a product of torque it's the delivery curve over the RPM range that counts as you can then take advantage of gearing.

Diesel's torque peaks low down in the rev range so you don't have to change gear as much for that kidney punch effect. However good petrol's keep delivering over a larger rev range so the advantages of gearing are maximised. Acceleration is smoother so the snap feeling isn't there CW a diesel but over say 6-10 seconds it makes a difference.

For example, the Furby Vrs has slightly more torque per tonne than a 4.8i X5. However, the X5 is about 2 seconds quicker on paper even though it's almost twice the weight. Why? Because the X5 has 500 bhp and the un tampered Vrs has 130 bhp.

Basically if you're into pulling past tractors from 20 mph without changing gear - diesels usually win (unless you own a huge petrol with BHP and torque). For pulling past tractors and then the two cars in front of it, get something like the Octy VRs and get used to moving that gear lever

bananaman, I already mentioned power to weight ration (PWR) most important.

Stone, I like to bang that drum sometimes.

Lets take 2 similar Octys, the 140 TDI and the 2.0 FSI Turbo:

310 plays 280 on the torque front, however, look at the rev range across which the 2.0T develops peak torque! 1800-5000rpm!!! That's a pretty strong torque curve that I'd be surprised if the diesel could match

Its all about the area under the lines

bananaman' date=' I already mentioned power to weight ration (PWR) most important.

Lets take 2 similar Octys, the 140 TDI and the 2.0 FSI Turbo:

[/quote']

Whilst I

310 plays 280 on the torque front, however, look at the rev range across which the 2.0T develops peak torque! 1800-5000rpm!!! That's a pretty strong torque curve that I'd be surprised if the diesel could match

I could have sworn I wrote that word for word a couple of hours ago

Chris

Ok i appreciate that the FSI is can sustain torque over a wider rev range than the PD TDI however i don't spend my life drag racing other motorists. I like the bags of torque my 2.0 TDI gives me which allows me to rapidly and more importantly safely overtake the car, tractor or combination of both in front of me. A manouvre like that is over within a few seconds in my car so there's really no need to keep accelerating outside the rev range where peak torque is available.

As for having to think ahead about which gear and rev range i'm in, i can't say it's really an issue. I think its because the car spends most of its time in or around the maximum torque band anyway. There's not much difference between 4th and 5th gear when it comes to overtaking and sometimes i don't even need to drop out of sixth. For me it takes more concentration in a petrol car to keep the revs up to the maximum power/torque band during overtaking.

Overall i don't think the 1.6/2.0 FSI's even compare to the 1.9/2.0 PD TDI's for driveability (not including the new vRS of course) I find that if i need a bit of oomph its just always there whereas somehow in a similar petrol car i'm always having to think ahead. We diesel drivers dont put up with the racket for fun.

BTW Lady Elanore i loved my Freelander. Yes despite being a brand new motor the front suspension all but dropped out one morning but that 2.0 BMW engine was lovely. Sob.

yes the diesel may have more torque. but the extra weight a diesel has does affect the outcome also if you include the short gearing. honestly i dont believe the "diesel mid-range" can be boasted about nemore. i had a fabia vrs.obvs diesel mid range.. whys it that i lost to a clio 182 in the mid range? i would offer my car for a mid range sprint trial but it would be unfair.

Diesels have much longer gearing not shorter, the extra weight doesn't always apply see the honda engine. The revs are much lower than an equivelent petrol car for a given speed. eg 70mph on a m/way is about 2k revs for me in a TDi.

The diesel has a good amount of torque which is why a PD130 Octavia will beat a MK4 GTI and a Fabia VRs simply streamed past a mini cooper on the straights.

(As per top gear). I have driven a turbo charged petrol engine, and I have to say that sorry it comes nowhere near a diesel for mid range punch. Also the 1.9 isn't current diesel technology really, it's the last generation.

As for the comment about the SDI not being safe, it just depends on how you drive and wether you look before pulling from the slip road onto the m/way.

Have to agree with the comment about the nice linear delivery from a non-turbo car mind

EDIT:

320 NM vs 280NM and while you say the 2.0 FSI can do that from 1800-5000 and the PD140 has a narrower range, the PD will stop reving at about 4,500 where as the FSI will keep going to somewhere around 8k.

Think it's down to how you like to drive really. Petrol cars are certainly quicker for off the line races, myself I don't care for that and would far rather be able to drop my foot down in 5th and accelerate. I mean as a comparison can the 2.0 FSI happily trundle around in 5th at 35-40mph? I know a TDi can do.

Yes it can

in a similar petrol car i'm always having to think ahead.

Is yours fitted with snooze control? Like most of the TDI rep mobiles I see on my way to work in the morning?

Whatever happened to being ivolved in the drive? Taking some pride in driving well, anticipating and thinking? Maybe we should all get diesel CVT cars?

lol I could drive an XUD without a turbo charger very fast and throw it around the bends when required. I could still have plenty of fun in a 306TD until some ****e wrote it off. Ditto goes for the TDI. At the same time I get over 50mpg without even trying.

Drop the petrol car into 2nd and oh the diesel is already a good way ahead as you wasted time off the power changeing gears. :P

Either way this is just turning into a ****ing war between what we all like to drive more

Some of us like to rev up to the redline, some of us prefer to drive easy and have fun when we want.

My main take from it, sure a T/Charged petrol can get some torque up, but not quite as much and more importantly, IMHO, fuel economy is much lower, revs are much higher and things get hotter (esp the turbo )

So to summarise i know diesels are better :P

So to summarise i know diesels are better :P

Sorry, I just had to use it as it mad me laugh - no offence intended

Yes it can

Is yours fitted with snooze control?

I wish it was. I'm averaging 2 hours sleep these days. The joys of parenthood

So to summarise i know diesels are better :P

I think it depends on what you mean by better - had a go in a mate's 140TDI estate and didn't like it as much as my 2.0FSI - can't really list the "why's", just how it felt to me - horses for courses as usual. On reflection I think mine just felt more refined, which is why I bought it in the first place.

So to summarise i know diesels are better :P

I think it depends on what you mean by better - had a go in a mate's 140TDI estate and didn't like it as much as my 2.0FSI - can't really list the "why's"' date=' just how it felt to me - horses for courses as usual. On reflection I think mine just felt more refined, which is why I bought it in the first place.[/quote']

You will notice the troll tags mate

Oh and Tavia VRs, none taken, but why is that bloke riding a raw sausage :S

Sausage jockey