Hi

I am looking at fitting a dogbone mount insert. I have already read numerous posts here on the subject on different colour poly ones verses Billet inserts. I am leaning towards the APR one. I am expecting some initial vibration issues after fitting though. I would just like to know how long the worst of the vibration lasts and how much better is it after a few weeks. Not sure I can live with too much vibration, as I do like a smooth drive.   

Evening!

 

I've had both the 034 Motorsport billet alu and APR stainless steel fitted to mine for the past 2.5 years; the 034 first, and the APR one earlier this year due to 034's admittance that additional strengthening was needed to avoid warping - which, once removed, had not occurred on mine.

 

In terms of noise, vibration, harshness (NVH) there is a noticeable difference in all those areas, but personally it's not that much. It's obviously difficult to describe on here, but I feel it mainly in vibrations through the floor. Everyone has their own tolerances around NVH and is totally subjective. For me, it meets my tolerance level but then again I have stiffer springs and an aftermarket exhaust - so it only adds minor NVH to what was already a noiser (AKA "more purposeful...") car.

 

I fitted it because I wanted reduced (if not eliminated!) wheel-hop, better manual gear changes, and peace-of-mind knowing I had some better components fitted to make the car 'feel' sportier, since it's Stage '1.5' remapped (additional components on Stage 1 map). Gears are easier to select and the manual throw is much less vague - not that it's a bad 'box to begin with, but you definitely get a lot more consistency with the 'felt' changes. It really optimises the car for me, and makes it even more enjoyable, so for that reason I can stand the NVH.

 

Based on your initial post, if you want a 'smooth drive', it's perhaps not the best choice for you as it never really 'beds in' - you just get more used to it.

 

In real terms:

• Noise - it took about 1 week for me to get used to it on daily drives, but doesn't add a great deal (especially not to mine). It's just more noticeable at lower revs.
• Vibration - You'll feel it in low rev maneuvers a lot more; reversing particularly. This does add to the 'harshness' factor, but the fix is to rev more OR just get on with it... It feels a bit like a 90s diesel Volvo occasionally, especially on cold start up. So if you do a lot of stop-start / commuting, it's probably not a great idea if you want a quiet, comfy drive.
• Harshness - The only thing I can add here is when you release the clutch without accelerator for a slow take-off / maneuvers, you'll feel more vibration. But it doesn't affect the drive much IMHO. If anything, the 'pros' that I added above re: accuracy of gear changes and the 'tightening' up of the whole car under revs is hugely addictive.

I personally love it, but I am aware that I've optimised mine for performance where it counts, rather than make it the comfiest it can be. Swings and roundabouts 😃

 

My recommendation would be to really consider what you want to achieve by adding it, and whether it'll bug you having the vibrations. Good thing is it's not an expensive part to buy or fit, and - so long as you replace the bolt each time - its's easy to refit the old one if you test the APR one for a few weeks / months.

 

EDIT: If you do go for it, be sure to identify the right part as there are 2 different shapes available depending on your individual car.

Edited 20 November, 20205 yr by Ads230
Clarification re: refit and sizing

26 minutes ago, Ads230 said:

Evening!

 

I've had both the 034 Motorsport billet alu and APR stainless steel fitted to mine for the past 2.5 years; the 034 first, and the APR one earlier this year due to 034's admittance that additional strengthening was needed to avoid warping - which, once removed, had not occurred on mine.

 

In terms of noise, vibration, harshness (NVH) there is a noticeable difference in all those areas, but personally it's not that much. It's obviously difficult to describe on here, but I feel it mainly in vibrations through the floor. Everyone has their own tolerances around NVH and is totally subjective. For me, it meets my tolerance level but then again I have stiffer springs and an aftermarket exhaust - so it only adds minor NVH to what was already a noiser (AKA "more purposeful...") car.

 

I fitted it because I wanted reduced (if not eliminated!) wheel-hop, better manual gear changes, and peace-of-mind knowing I had some better components fitted to make the car 'feel' sportier, since it's Stage '1.5' remapped (additional components on Stage 1 map). Gears are easier to select and the manual throw is much less vague - not that it's a bad 'box to begin with, but you definitely get a lot more consistency with the 'felt' changes. It really optimises the car for me, and makes it even more enjoyable, so for that reason I can stand the NVH.

 

Based on your initial post, if you want a 'smooth drive', it's perhaps not the best choice for you as it never really 'beds in' - you just get more used to it.

 

In real terms:

• Noise - it took about 1 week for me to get used to it on daily drives, but doesn't add a great deal (especially not to mine). It's just more noticeable at lower revs.
• Vibration - You'll feel it in low rev maneuvers a lot more; reversing particularly. This does add to the 'harshness' factor, but the fix is to rev more OR just get on with it... It feels a bit like a 90s diesel Volvo occasionally, especially on cold start up. So if you do a lot of stop-start / commuting, it's probably not a great idea if you want a quiet, comfy drive.
• Harshness - The only thing I can add here is when you release the clutch without accelerator for a slow take-off / maneuvers, you'll feel more vibration. But it doesn't affect the drive much IMHO. If anything, the 'pros' that I added above re: accuracy of gear changes and the 'tightening' up of the whole car under revs is hugely addictive.

I personally love it, but I am aware that I've optimised mine for performance where it counts, rather than make it the comfiest it can be. Swings and roundabouts 😃

 

My recommendation would be to really consider what you want to achieve by adding it, and whether it'll bug you having the vibrations. Good thing is it's not an expensive part to buy or fit, and - so long as you replace the bolt each time - its's easy to refit the old one if you test the APR one for a few weeks / months.

 

EDIT: If you do go for it, be sure to identify the right part as there are 2 different shapes available depending on your individual car.

Thank you for an extremely informative response. I know I need version 2 mount, as have already got under the car to find out. I am just in two minds whether to go for it or not. You may have seen another post of mine concerning bangs underneath the car when accelerating and going over a piece of very uneven road. It really does bang hard sometimes and I wonder over long term whether damage will occur because of this. Of course this started after I had the car mapped. Never had this problem with my previous mapped MK2 Octavia VRS. It can even bang when accelerating half throttle, when you hit an inch or two deep cut in the road. So do I put up with the odd bang and get an overall smooth ride, or fit a dogbone insert to vastly reduce the bangs underneath and put up with a bit of vibration. Decisions, decisions!   

PS- I never get this banging problem when accelerating hard on a smooth road mind. I do however have slightly wider 235/35/19 Mitchelin PS4S tyres, which give me the good grip I am after.   

Edited 20 November, 20205 yr by roaddetective

Great post by @Ads230 in line with my own experiences. I had the 034 insert for maybe 3wks, was great at first exactly as above but then I had some axle tramp return (the banging you've mentioned). That was when I discovered the additional advice on 034 Motorsport's website about needing the upper insert to prevent the lower insert from failing. My car had been tuned by the previous owner (output TBC) and made quick work of the lone lower mount, which had a noticable bend upon removal.

 

I've since had a replacement sent out + the upper insert, but am yet to install it (hopefully this weekend).

Just search for "dogbone" in this forum. Plenty of threads.

11 minutes ago, ords said:

Just search for "dogbone" in this forum. Plenty of threads.

Have already done so, but hardly any members have the fitted the APR Billet one. 

I fitted the (version 1) 034 Motorsport Billet Aluminium MQB Dogbone Mount Insert from awesomegti.com back in March 2018.
I obviously checked out the 034 site at the time and there was no mention of an upper Dogbone Mount Insert being needed.  

My 1.4L is unmodified, I am a low mileage user and I never push it. The billet eliminated practically all judder 
and I noticed no additional vibration or noise. There has been no return of tramping, the billet is not twisted and the
mount is as good as the day I fitted the insert. 

I assume the problems experienced by others are related to greater power delivery, but there is little real information out there.

 

gregsko

On 20/11/2020 at 18:33, roaddetective said:

I know I need version 2 mount, as have already got under the car to find out.

It sounds like you and I are running basically exactly the same cars 👍 - manual 230 hatches (albeit yours 2 years younger + FL), both Stage 1 Racingline maps with 330bhp, both 235/35 R19s.

 

I should have added that the APR and 034 (without the additional part they require) mounts do operate exactly the same and have absolutely zero discernable difference in NVH properties from each other.

 

I did see your other thread, I think I also commented (can't remember!), but given what you've described, I'm pretty convinced that the noise is axle tramp under the increased power - especially since we've extended stock BHP by +100 or thereabouts. Mine did it before I replaced the mounts, although I don't tend to pull away hard that often to save the stock clutch for now. 

 

Personally, I would go for it to see how you get on with it 😊  It's not an invasive mod, it's not that expensive for a test, and it's fully reversible - so long as you ensure you replace the bolts each time to prevent stripping.

Edited 22 November, 20205 yr by Ads230

1 hour ago, Ads230 said:

It sounds like you and I are running basically exactly the same cars 👍 - manual 230 hatches (albeit yours 2 years younger + FL), both Stage 1 Racingline maps with 330bhp, both 235/35 R19s.

 

I should have added that the APR and 034 (without the additional part they require) mounts do operate exactly the same and have absolutely zero discernable difference in NVH properties from each other.

 

I did see your other thread, I think I also commented (can't remember!), but given what you've described, I'm pretty convinced that the noise is axle tramp under the increased power - especially since we've extended stock BHP by +100 or thereabouts. Mine did it before I replaced the mounts, although I don't tend to pull away hard that often to save the stock clutch for now. 

 

Personally, I would go for it to see how you get on with it 😊  It's not an invasive mod, it's not that expensive for a test, and it's fully reversible - so long as you ensure you replace the bolts each time to prevent stripping.

Yes mate, same car same power same tyre width.  I can't seem to make a decision as yet. Have been on some Audi forums and a few of the petrol guys have been fitting the Powerflex red poly insert. Usually the red one goes in the diesel cars, but as it is softer than the yellow poly bush, they say they are getting less vibration. Just looking to make sure I get the part number correct first. Mine is a version 2, or also described as B.   OEM part number is  5Q0198 037B. It looks like the correct Powerflex poly insert part number should then be, PFF85-833 for yellow and PFF85-832R for the red one. Must make my mind up this week. 

Edited 22 November, 20205 yr by roaddetective

The main thing which I'd say is if you like a smooth ride, don't touch the dogbone mount.

 

I appreciate my findings come from using a lower hybrid bush on diesel (as opposed to a billet mount on a petrol) but the increase in NHV did spoil the car and it was amazing to see / hear / feel how the rubber bush dampened down the NHV from the engine.

 

I understand people on here with just the inserts have found things to be manageable, but I certainly won't be going back and looking for other bits in this section.

7 hours ago, tunedude said:

The main thing which I'd say is if you like a smooth ride, don't touch the dogbone mount.

 

I appreciate my findings come from using a lower hybrid bush on diesel (as opposed to a billet mount on a petrol) but the increase in NHV did spoil the car and it was amazing to see / hear / feel how the rubber bush dampened down the NHV from the engine.

 

I understand people on here with just the inserts have found things to be manageable, but I certainly won't be going back and looking for other bits in this section.

I have been thinking and have made a decision at last. I am going to try a Powerflex red poly insert. This one I have read is the softest and is meant for the diesel motor, but my thinking is, fit it to a petrol motor and I might get rid of the odd banging with only slight or hopefully none of the annoying vibration issues. I just really hate that banging underneath! If it ends up after a period of trial to cause a vibration problem I can't live with, out it comes to get back to standard. It's worth a go and I will keep you all updated as to my progress.  

On 22/11/2020 at 16:50, Ads230 said:

It sounds like you and I are running basically exactly the same cars 👍 - manual 230 hatches (albeit yours 2 years younger + FL), both Stage 1 Racingline maps with 330bhp, both 235/35 R19s.

 

I should have added that the APR and 034 (without the additional part they require) mounts do operate exactly the same and have absolutely zero discernable difference in NVH properties from each other.

 

I did see your other thread, I think I also commented (can't remember!), but given what you've described, I'm pretty convinced that the noise is axle tramp under the increased power - especially since we've extended stock BHP by +100 or thereabouts. Mine did it before I replaced the mounts, although I don't tend to pull away hard that often to save the stock clutch for now. 

 

Personally, I would go for it to see how you get on with it 😊  It's not an invasive mod, it's not that expensive for a test, and it's fully reversible - so long as you ensure you replace the bolts each time to prevent stripping.

Hi Ads230. You don't happen to know the part number of the bolt that goes up through the mount do you?  

3 minutes ago, roaddetective said:

Hi Ads230. You don't happen to know the part number of the bolt that goes up through the mount do you?  

 

N91201001

1 minute ago, tunedude said:

 

N91201001

Fantastic mate. You just can't beat this site and the guys on here for information. 

@roaddetective if you're doing it yourself (on the drive) you need....

 

a pair of ramps (unless you've a pair of jacks that can get it high enough of the ground)

a pair of chocks (safety first)

a socket set

a breaker bar (the stretch bolt is in under some ridiculous torque setting) 

a torque wrench

a rubber mallet (makes getting the insert in easier

a choice of colourful phrases when removing the old bolt and tightening the new one 

 

if you're a competent person, it's a half hour job to fit. Take the car round the block and retorque the bolt again (just need a quick drive to ensure it settles into place)

 

I popped a smidge of the 'grease' which comes with it on the entry of the top mount to aid it getting in. I'd advise doing the same on the entry bits on the lower section which you'll be putting the insert into. I used the whole sachet, but a bit smeared out. I'd probably say just coat the surfaces of the insert lightly with it.

 

As you're installing an insert you shouldn't need to remove the dogbone mount itself, but when you go to insert the new bolt, you will need to push the engine unit away from you so the hole in the dogbone lines up with the holes on both sides on the bushes.

1 minute ago, tunedude said:

@roaddetective if you're doing it yourself (on the drive) you need....

 

a pair of ramps (unless you've a pair of jacks that can get it high enough of the ground)

a pair of chocks (safety first)

a socket set

a breaker bar (the stretch bolt is in under some ridiculous torque setting) 

a torque wrench

a rubber mallet (makes getting the insert in easier

a choice of colourful phrases when removing the old bolt and tightening the new one 

 

if you're a competent person, it's a half hour job to fit. Take the car round the block and retorque the bolt again (just need a quick drive to ensure it settles into place)

 

I popped a smidge of the 'grease' which comes with it on the entry of the top mount to aid it getting in. I'd advise doing the same on the entry bits on the lower section which you'll be putting the insert into. I used the whole sachet, but a bit smeared out. I'd probably say just coat the surfaces of the insert lightly with it.

 

As you're installing an insert you shouldn't need to remove the dogbone mount itself, but when you go to insert the new bolt, you will need to push the engine unit away from you so the hole in the dogbone lines up with the holes on both sides on the bushes.

Although I have worked on cars for a number of decades, I was even an apprentice mechanic in my youth, I am leaving this job to my local garage. I have all of the above apart from some good ramps. A girlfriend of mine around 1972 bought me my Britool torque wrench, which I still have. Not sure how accurate it will be now though. I just don't fancy getting underneath the car with one hydraulic jack and 2 axle stands, trying to undo as well as do up a bolt that has to be bleeding tight. Half an hours labour charge at the garage will do me.