REVO Stage 2 for GPF cars - 400PS / 562NM ​​without dp/gpf upgrade?!​​​​​

[newbie69]

This took a couple of years but it's finally out. REVO now offer a Stage 2 pack for GPF cars with a claimed  400PS / 562Nm

These are just incredible figures because they are achieved without upgrading the downpipe and without removing the GPF's as REVO aimed to keep the cars fully road legal and avoid MOT issues. In some countries it's suspected that removal/absence of GPFs could result in direct MOT fail so maybe they wanted to play it safe?

 Essentially this "stage 2" is only backed up by an intake kit, an intercooler and a charge pipes upgrade, I'd personally call it a stage 1+++ more likely as there is no modification on the exhaust system whatsoever.

Now, I'm still trying to get my head round what magic REVO did to hit such figures, and in particular to achieve more torque on a GPF car (562Nm) than what a pre-GPF stage 2 with upgraded catalyst (!!!) was making (520-540Nm) ...
I've seen hybrid turbo MQBs at 460-480bhp that don't make much more torque than that to be honest.


I don't take dyno figures too seriously as they don't always reflect reality, so I'd like to see some road performance data between stage 1 and stage 2 GPF cars to quantify the performance upgrade  but since I have an intake kit already on mine and the remap for upgrading customers is reduced to a mere 100EUR currently, I'm only looking at the cost of the intercooler, charge pipes and installation to switch to Stage 2 which I think would be reduced to around 1K so this sounds extremely tempting...


https://www.onlyrevo.com/product-details/mqb-20tsi-is38-gpf-performance-pack
 

 

Edited 5 December, 2020 by newbie69

[Ootohere]

Strange that English speakers in the UK use the term 'Good Quality Fuel' when surely they are meaning 'Super Unleaded 97 or more likely 99 octane.'

@4 minutes.  (So they show a Shell V-Power Nitro + pump.)

Why not say what they actually mean and 99 ron if that is what it is? And 'Lower Octane' if that means 95 ron.

 

There is no 'Lower Quality' 95 Ron Unleaded sold in the UK,  just not a higher octane, or Lower quality 97 ron Super Unleaded.

For 99 Ron it will be Esso Synergy 99, or Tesco Momentum 99 or Shell V-Power Nitro + in the UK,  unless anyone is maybe buying 102 ron.

Edited 5 December, 2020 by e-Roottoot

[newbie69]

Update on this as the car was flashed with the stage 2 software last week  

I already had the intake mods suggested by REVO, so this was only a remap job. I didn't touch anything hardware wise (no inter-cooler or charge pipes upgraded). Reason is the GPF Stage 2 is developped to be run on stock downpipe anyway, and an upgraded inter-cooler would only prevent possible power loss from high ambient temps and heat soak that currently are not an issue where I'm based or for the type of driving I do (no extended full throttle application...) so I just went ahead. Car seems to be running fine after some logs and I will keep an eye on logs and timing as getting closer to summer in case I see a noticeable drop in performance but for now it all looks good.

Performance wise I'd have been glad to see half a sec off my previous average 100-200 time of 11.7"  but I was in for a surprise. The car was indeed feeling as if it pulled somewhat stronger but I was shocked to see my best runs between 10.1" - 10.3"  .
Subsequent testing showed a consistent average of 10.5-10.7" too which is still more than I could have wished for.






For a 1630kg car with 272bhp stock, and just software, an intake, and a turbo inlet pipe done, those times are very impressive. For reference, my 360bhp/1470kg GTI before was managing 10.9-11.0" at best. Also, every stage 2 Superb 280 I'd seen so far was closer to 11", and that was with an upgraded downpipe and no GPFs on obviously so maybe the GPF catalysts are somehow less restrictive? Can't really explain it otherwise.

Anyway, I have a dyno planned soon not for peak numbers but rather about the new torque curve but i can say that REVO's claims about 400bhp on the stock downpipe on GPF cars don't sound exaggerated at all. 

My only concern with boost now peaking at ~1.8bar (up 0.2 from 1.6bar before) is the turbo longevity so I might consider some LM upgrade options come spring time...

 

Edited 13 January, 2021 by newbie69

[TheBinarySheep]

1.8 bar of boost.... GULP!!!

How are they able to get this power form the 272 without too many supporting mods, but not from the 280? or can they?

[newbie69]

18 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

1.8 bar of boost.... GULP!!!

How are they able to get this power form the 272 without too many supporting mods, but not from the 280? or can they?

Actually, 1.8bar is the typical pre-GPF stage 2 peak boost too, nothing different here. Hits it around 3500rpm then tapers down to 1.5 to the limiter.

The impressive bit is this is achieved on the stock exhaust system without any timing being pulled, let alone fault codes etc. Will need to confirm it when temps hit 20-25 degrees regarding the need for an intercooler but REVO have been testing this map for some time now so it must be within the system's capabilities.

My only guess is the GPF main catalyst could be slightly less restrictive as the GPFs are also there so the work is shared, but then the overall limitation should have been the same, or maybe this is not how the main + secondary catalyst combo is working. I mean, we've seen from stage 1 already that GPF engines were making similar gains to pre-GPF somehow.

We'll see how it fares in the long run.

Edited 13 January, 2021 by newbie69

[TheBinarySheep]

4 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

Actually, 1.8bar is the typical pre-GPF stage 2 peak boost too, nothing different here. Hits it around 3500rpm then tapers down to 1.5 to the limiter.

The impressive bit is this is achieved on the stock exhaust system without any timing being pulled, let alone fault codes etc. Will need to confirm it when temps hit 20-25 degrees regarding the need for an intercooler but REVO have been testing this map for some time now so it must be within the system's capabilities.

My only guess is the GPF main catalyst could be slightly less restrictive as the GPFs are also there so the work is shared, but then the overall limitation should have been the same, or maybe this is not how the main + secondary catalyst combo is working. I mean, we've seen from stage 1 already that GPF engines were making similar gains to pre-GPF somehow.

We'll see how it fares in the long run.

It's annoying because I was told if I wanted 400hp then I needed an intake, intercooler and downpipe. It's not fair if the 272 can make better power with less add-ons!

[newbie69]

13 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

It's annoying because I was told if I wanted 400hp then I needed an intake, intercooler and downpipe. It's not fair if the 272 can make better power with less add-ons!

Intake and intercooler are requested from REVO too to hit 400bhp, i guess the meaning is we tune the map so that with intake and charge pipes it can provide 400bhp and to have it available all the time under all conditions, an I/C is needed. On mine it seems to be working for now on the stock i/c but I wouldn't be too surprised to see timing pull back and worse acceleraiton numbers in the summer so nothing new there.

The real question is how the GPF cats are able to flow the gases of a stage 2 @ 1.8bar if the pre-GPF's only main cat couldn't but it's a new setup and it's normal that things move on I guess.
The Mk8 R with supposedly just 320bhp is hitting mid 11's in the 100-200 as stock   (consequently pushing closer to 340-350bhp in reality), and who knows where stage 1 will get it with the evo4 EA888 variant and the new turbo.

I don't think you shouldn't get too upset about it! Especially since you have a strong turbo that can push 420 easily if tuned accordingly...

[Bigeater]

I'll be able to give you some 280 stage 2 figures to compare to on friday. Tomorrow i'm having the downpipe done, and friday it's booked in for the stage 2 flash and RR session.

Keep up the good work newbie 

[Roscio]

17 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Update on this as the car was flashed with the stage 2 software last week  

I already had the intake mods suggested by REVO, so this was only a remap job. I didn't touch anything hardware wise (no inter-cooler or charge pipes upgraded). Reason is the GPF Stage 2 is developped to be run on stock downpipe anyway, and an upgraded inter-cooler would only prevent possible power loss from high ambient temps and heat soak that currently are not an issue where I'm based or for the type of driving I do (no extended full throttle application...) so I just went ahead. Car seems to be running fine after some logs and I will keep an eye on logs and timing as getting closer to summer in case I see a noticeable drop in performance but for now it all looks good.

Performance wise I'd have been glad to see half a sec off my previous average 100-200 time of 11.7"  but I was in for a surprise. The car was indeed feeling as if it pulled somewhat stronger but I was shocked to see my best runs between 10.1" - 10.3"  .
Subsequent testing showed a consistent average of 10.5-10.7" too which is still more than I could have wished for.

 

These are truly impressive numbers, although I believe that the low temperatures contribute in this moment to increase the air flow and get this power output. I believe this summer you will experience a remarcable power loss without a bigger ic. Anyway good job! 

 

17 hours ago, newbie69 said:

My only concern with boost now peaking at ~1.8bar (up 0.2 from 1.6bar before) is the turbo longevity so I might consider some LM upgrade options come spring time...

 

Now your turbo works almost to its limit, as is normal with a stage2, but I think that its most important how carefully you drive your car, this is what can make a difference in its longevity.

 

Also impressive is that you're using stock exhaust! 

 

ps. i am waiting for your long term feedback on haldex controller 

 

12 hours ago, Bigeater said:

I'll be able to give you some 280 stage 2 figures to compare to on friday. Tomorrow i'm having the downpipe done, and friday it's booked in for the stage 2 flash and RR session.

 

Wich downpipe did you choose? I Look forward to your numbers 

[newbie69]

2 hours ago, Roscio said:

These are truly impressive numbers, although I believe that the low temperatures contribute in this moment to increase the air flow and get this power output. I believe this summer you will experience a remarcable power loss without a bigger ic. Anyway good job! 

Now your turbo works almost to its limit, as is normal with a stage2, but I think that its most important how carefully you drive your car, this is what can make a difference in its longevity.

 

Also impressive is that you're using stock exhaust! 

 

ps. i am waiting for your long term feedback on haldex controller 

Current weather definitely helps, we have between 0-2 degrees here over the last 10 days, but because of that I did a 100-200 run one day before the flash and it was a 11.7" so the gains are real.

I'll monitor closely as I said for possible power loss when temps get hotter but it is not worrying me that much. For starters I could add some ethanol as it is available in the fuel stations here, and run a E10-E20 mix, that should take care of timing issues to an extent. There's also the option to switch to the 97RON or 95RON version of the map (while running 98RON of-course) for a milder operation, and of-course nothing stops me from adding an i/c in the end if that's really deemed necessary, we'll see.  The impressive thing is as you say the achievement of such performance and smooth operation on the stock exhaust...

Probably, I will only upgrade the i/c if i decide to upgrade the turbo too with something like the LM440. Not to use it to its full potential as that would be impossible without a downpipe upgrade but as a preventative measure for the turbo. Car is our primary driver so the trouble of having it off the road for an unknown time if the turbo blows is something much worse than the upgrade cost (Can't imagine fitting any of our stuff in the wife's Corsa ) . Also because the plan is for a long road trip this summer and a couple of months being away (haven't left Sweden since summer '19...) assuming the whole situation gets back to normal-ish, so that's probably the worst place to be having a failure and looking for repairs.

Not much to report about the Haldex controller as I've only driven the car to the tuner and back, and did some testing, drop me a PM about what you'd like to know in specific, I also have an idea if you're really interested in finding out how it drives 

[Roscio]

11 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Probably, I will only upgrade the i/c if i decide to upgrade the turbo too with something like the LM440. Not to use it to its full potential as that would be impossible without a downpipe upgrade but as a preventative measure for the turbo.

Yeah, but without using its full potential (wise choice) you'll be fine with stock intercooler, even with a LM440.

 

11 hours ago, newbie69 said:

Not much to report about the Haldex controller as I've only driven the car to the tuner and back, and did some testing, drop me a PM about what you'd like to know in specific, I also have an idea if you're really interested in finding out how it drives 

Ok, thanks, i will ask you later. For now mod season is closed.

DSG map improvement and B6 damptronic are for now on top of the list, then haldex controller and maybe rear brakes.

 

 

But, again, low 10s is such a great result with almost only a software remap, truly mindblowing. REVO guys did a great job for sure, TVS too on dsg IMO, but this DNUA engine is better than expectations. Good to know!

[newbie69]

12 hours ago, Roscio said:

1. Yeah, but without using its full potential (wise choice) you'll be fine with stock intercooler, even with a LM440.

2. But, again, low 10s is such a great result with almost only a software remap, truly mindblowing. REVO guys did a great job for sure, TVS too on dsg IMO, but this DNUA engine is better than expectations. Good to know!

1. Yeah but paying 1860EUR for upgrading my own turbo to a LM440 IS38 and still making just... 400bhp is kinda hard to swallow you know   I'd like to see mid 9's at least. So I'm afraid I won't stop at an upgraded turbo but continue to an upgraded intercooler, a downpipe etc....

2. You know I could troll like some people on FB groups and post just one Dragy run showing 10.1" but that was more of a fluke in the best conditions possible.
I don't want to fool myself (or others) that's why I wrote that the repetitive performance is closer to mid 10s and even just slightly above that, which is of-course an amazing time as it matches a non-GPF stage 2 car with upgraded catalyst, but you know what I mean.

But there seems to be something with GPF engines I have to admit. I've seen two GPF Cupras ST 4Drive (1550-1580kg depending on equipment) do 8.5"-8.8" with a real stage 2, upgraded catalyst and GPF removed from an independent tuner .  Even if they are closer to 9" this is a huge time for a GPF stage 2 1550+ car.

Edited 15 January, 2021 by newbie69

[Bigeater]

I've got a paltry 390ps and 558nm. Money not well spent then!

Roscio - It's a cobra sport downpipe and a mid pipe without resonator.

It's a bit loud, but it is a bit more savage than a stage 1.

[shyVRS245]

16 minutes ago, Bigeater said:

I've got a paltry 390ps and 558nm. Money not well spent then!

Roscio - It's a cobra sport downpipe and a mid pipe without resonator.

It's a bit loud, but it is a bit more savage than a stage 1.

Reminds me of my spending on my 2017 Vrs245. £500 for the remap to get it to 302bhp, then another £2,500 to squeeze a further 34bhp and 50nm more torque (from 467 to 517nm). Sometimes stage 1 seems more appealing.

[newbie69]

21 minutes ago, Bigeater said:

I've got a paltry 390ps and 558nm. Money not well spent then!

Roscio - It's a cobra sport downpipe and a mid pipe without resonator.

It's a bit loud, but it is a bit more savage than a stage 1.

Don't get too fussed up about dyno numbers, they don't tell all the story and with that much torque (558Nm is A LOT!) I bet it flies now... You went with APR? How do you feel it?

I'm sure it should be in the 10s in the 100-200 run. Mine didn't even get that high in terms of torque, at least from the ECU readings, seemed to be topping about 515Nm but that wasn't on a dyno, maybe there it shows a higher figure (not that I care too much really, but I have booked a dyno session later this month so I will report back with the figures shown there.

Get a Dragy! That's all that counts! 

 

Edited 15 January, 2021 by newbie69

[vankissa]

Hey @newbie69

It's almost a year after your Stage2 upgrade. 👍

How was the summer for you and have you faced any issued with the turbo?

 

p.s.

I am running Stage1 for almost the same time and I'm now considering Stage 2 + DSG TCU Update all from Revo so I\ll really appreciate any feedback from anyone that has already gone through this path.

Thanks!

 

[newbie69]

Reliability wise I never had any issue until September when the car was sold. That included a 2 day road trip of 14hr drives with one high speed acceleration after the other, including several pulls close to 240-50km/h on the Autobahn (and a few quite higher than that) without absolutely any hiccup. I was very impressed actually during those two days because the car was really put to a test but apparently REVO's work on these is very solid.

Following that trip I spent a couple of months in 30 deg C+  temperatures even in the evenings. Again no issues (overheating, CEL etc.) at all but the one thing I noticed was that the car in these 30+ deg C conditions became a bit slower, clocking the 100-200 in high 12s, even very low 13s in some cases, as opposed to the average of low 11s the rest of the year when I was in Sweden. I guess that means that an intercooler is indeed a good idea if you want to have all the extra performance at your disposal unless you're in a cold ( < 10 deg C) place for most of the time.

Also to update on those times posted above in the original posts, they were really the fastest ones I had achieved, probably an ideal combo of barometric pressure, humidity, wind etc. the average times as wrote just before was low 11s.

PS. Retrospectively, I'd say the cost of stage 2 vs the gains is not worth it, nothing like stage 1 value for money at least, but I know how the itching feels like when you're already stage 1 and have no better uses for some spare hundreds of EUR 😄

Edited 25 November, 2021 by newbie69

[vankissa]

😃

Yeah, you are totally right!

 

Actually I saw your other posts related to the trip you mentioned and I already knew that the car was sold. Thank you for answering me though! I really appreciate it!

 

Back on my use case... I started this because of the gearbox behavior. I really do not like how it is striving to a higher gear all the time, effectively moving forward to the 5th and 6th gear with about 1200rpm and even lower. It is a real problem when I'm driving in the city or in a heavy traffic with about 50-60 km/h. So I was thinking about TCU upgrade by TVS. I knew, however, that I won't stand of the Stage1 ECU upgrade itching for long, as you said 😄, and decided to do that first.

They've been about 10K km from that moment and I already have more options for the TCU upgrade. Revo have released their own recently that seems to be very promising especially when coupled with their ECU software. So I'm really excited going that path to full Performance Pack + Stage 2 + TCU DSG upgrades, all from Revo.

[newbie69]

 

On 26/11/2021 at 11:06, vankissa said:

😃

Yeah, you are totally right!

 

Actually I saw your other posts related to the trip you mentioned and I already knew that the car was sold. Thank you for answering me though! I really appreciate it!

 

Back on my use case... I started this because of the gearbox behavior. I really do not like how it is striving to a higher gear all the time, effectively moving forward to the 5th and 6th gear with about 1200rpm and even lower. It is a real problem when I'm driving in the city or in a heavy traffic with about 50-60 km/h. So I was thinking about TCU upgrade by TVS. I knew, however, that I won't stand of the Stage1 ECU upgrade itching for long, as you said 😄, and decided to do that first.

They've been about 10K km from that moment and I already have more options for the TCU upgrade. Revo have released their own recently that seems to be very promising especially when coupled with their ECU software. So I'm really excited going that path to full Performance Pack + Stage 2 + TCU DSG upgrades, all from Revo.

Yep, I have no experience of the REVO TCU remap but I would imagine it's been developed in the same high standards as the ECU one, especially since it took them so much time to come out, and that it will be working well together with their ECU remap.

When i said about the cost, I meant if you do it "properly" and add the intercooler too, otherwise if just a reflash to stage 2, especially if in a discounted price as they go from time to time then it's more palatable.

Edited 30 November, 2021 by newbie69

[vankissa]

I agree...

I spoke with the Revo representative in BG earlier today and I gave up going for "proper" Stage 2 Upgrade .

The price listed in the Revo Web Page will be doubled, almost, because of the delivery cost from UK to BG, the duty and VAT taxes, and also the installation fees which already makes the package not so attractive.

 

I'll go with the TCU Upgrade only, at least for the moment. Thank you for your thoughts on this!

 

[newbie69]

8 hours ago, vankissa said:

I agree...

I spoke with the Revo representative in BG earlier today and I gave up going for "proper" Stage 2 Upgrade .

The price listed in the Revo Web Page will be doubled, almost, because of the delivery cost from UK to BG, the duty and VAT taxes, and also the installation fees which already makes the package not so attractive.

 

I'll go with the TCU Upgrade only, at least for the moment. Thank you for your thoughts on this!

 

Any decent intercooler for this platform (Wagner, Do88, Forge etc.)  would do just as well, doesn't need to be the REVO one. But then if the installation is not a DIY then it will get expensive anyway.

And I can think of many other better uses for ~ 1500 EUR (or more) spent on the car...

[vankissa]

The exact number in the Revo Web Site is 1900 EUR for the whole Performance Pack assuming that you have already got the Stage 1 ECU and TCU Upgrades.

BUT since the UK is not in the EU, already, we have 20% duty taxes, 20% more VAT, delivery and installation, so the number gets really fat to about 3500 EUR. So this sounds ridiculous and I decided to live with Stage 1 ECU and TCU Upgrades only.

Unless Revo decide to change something and to start shipping to EU from an EU based warehouse that will eliminate those 40% of price raise.

 

 

[Awesam]

Why not go for a TVS ECU & TCU tune instead of REVO if its more cost effective?  Their TCU tune is 2nd to none.

 

Also in my recent ventures in concsidering turbo upgrades, its become apparent that the REVO ETR V1 and the Racingline OEM Turbo are a rebadged/larger exhaust housing Turbo Technics V4.    

Edited 2 December, 2021 by Awesam

[vankissa]

7 minutes ago, Awesam said:

Why not go for a TVS ECU & TCU

There is no reliable TVS representатive in BG. There are several really impressive projects (550-600bhp) here but all the work was done in the Netherlands which doesn't sound good for me in a long term perspective.

[newbie69]

1 hour ago, vankissa said:

The exact number in the Revo Web Site is 1900 EUR for the whole Performance Pack assuming that you have already got the Stage 1 ECU and TCU Upgrades.

BUT since the UK is not in the EU, already, we have 20% duty taxes, 20% more VAT, delivery and installation, so the number gets really fat to about 3500 EUR. So this sounds ridiculous and I decided to live with Stage 1 ECU and TCU Upgrades only.

Unless Revo decide to change something and to start shipping to EU from an EU based warehouse that will eliminate those 40% of price raise.

 

 

That's mad expensive for the (minimal) gain that will be obtained, as mentioned you could probably get a big turbo setup locally for that amount of money, not worth it by any means.

Imo, it's only worth spending money on the intercooler if you do plan to go stage 3 etc, otherwise stick with stage 1. Maybe add an intake and turbo inlet pipe just to scratch that itch of a few more easy bhp (if you haven't already) and call it a day.