Building a new PC

[Alex-W]

So, it's been a while since I build/upgraded a PC.  My present one is about 10 years old.

 

I gave up on PC gaming many years back and went to consoles (xbox and then 360) but hoping to get a little bit of time in the future to play a few games.   By no means a 'gamer' but hopefully a few hours a week to chill and a weekly session with mates one evening.  I'll only be looking at 1080p and I'm not overly convinced by the whole 'I need 100fps' stuff as back in the day I was quite happy with 30-40 and still enjoyed playing.  

 

I've been doing a fair chunk of research into what's available now.

Have settled on building an ITX machine.  The reality is, my present PC has a single graphics card and a USB 3.0 card in and that's it.  Other than not being fast enough these days it's actually ok.  Given USB3.0, ethernet, bluetooth, wifi all comes built into many of the ITX motherboards I can't see why I'd need more and it allows me to have a smaller metal cube kicking around housing it all.

 

I'm likely going for a NZXT H210i case, which isn't a tiny one, it's essentially just a normal tower that's smaller in height and depth to remove wasted space but can still take everything you need.  

 

The GPU will be on hold for now as prices and availability are stupid.  When it goes back to normal I'll be looking around the £200 mark for a 1660 Super or 2nd hand 1070/1080ti or something.

 

 

The real question lies in the CPU though.  I'm looking at the 6 core ones as beyond that is pointless for my use and a fair bit more expensive.

 

I have friends who swear intel is better.  Look online and AMD is more popular by far.

Lots of people (reviews etc) suggest the Ryzen 3600 is the one to go for as it's better value and outperforms intel.

I'm not convinced this is the case.

 

From what I can tell they perform in this order (worst to best) - i5 9600k, Ryzen5 3600, i5 10600kf, Ryzen 5 5600X

 

The 9600k is old and clearly not as good, so I've removed that from the mix.

The others though are £180, £185, £320 respectively.  To me, the obvious choice is the Intel i5 10600k as it's about the same price as the Ryzen, it's far newer, faster (albeit not hugely)  and the same price as the Ryzen, with higher max clock speeds.

The advantages of the Ryzen as far as I can see are that it's got a lower TDP, however pretty sure that's just the max theoretical heat, IF you overclock.  Also it comes with a cooler.   But most people swap out the cooler anyway (I would plan to for an ITX case).

 

So.....  why is the Ryzen 3600 the go-to cpu?   They really don't look to be 'far better value' as they're claimed to me.  They pretty much the same value, slightly cheaper, slightly lower performance?

 

BTW, the current proposed build spec is this (GPU missing as that's tbc based on availability) https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/user/Sheaf/saved/W7FPFT

 

Alex

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 February, 2021 by Alex-W

[Ttaskmaster]

All depends what you're using it for, really, and it's an age-old internet war over Red vs Blue.

Intel will be 'better' in some roles, while AMD will 'destroy' the competition in others... and each different CPU has its own merits. AMD have upped their game recently, to the point where they are now matching and sometimes beating Intel on performance, rather than undercutting with much lower prices for a bit less performance as they previously did. This is one reason why they're so popular.

 

While AMD are often better in performance benchmarks, I think Intel still have the edge in actual gaming. Their architecture is a bit older, but more refined and generally higher power. It also depends what the particular game is optimised for. Very few make full use of hyperthreading.

 

A friend of mine is one of the top overclockers as well as a heavy gamer, and he quite happily runs a 10600K with a 3080 in his main rig, getting steady 60FPS playing Cyberpunk 2077 in 4k with very high settings.

I run a 5960X and 980Ti in 1440 and get around 80FPS.

60FPS is generally reckoned to be a good minimum for modern games. There are a lot more things that go into the games and lower frames can make them look quite janky as a result.

[robt100]

PC Prices are silly at the moment, I've put a partial hold on any builds till things calm down as you have to pay 50-100% more than you did 18 months ago!

Id say go for the AMD platform, usually the selling point would be the ability to upgrade to later-generation CPUs further down the line, but the AM4 platform has reached its final iteration with the 5000 series CPUs. So both platforms are a bit of a dead end, but for casual gaming at 1080p 60fps, it wont be a problem. Also, as you're wanting to go ITX, you may not get as good power delivery options to the CPU on the motherboard with VRMs etc, so AMD's lower power architecture may be of benefit.
Intel WERE the best gaming CPU and close on non-gaming workloads, now AMD win on both counts, intel is well behind where they used to be. The landscape has changed in the last 3-4 years by a long way!

AMD are the fastest CPUs in all areas now with their latest processors, and you have got the flexibility to maybe buy a new motherboard and an 'old' CPU (2000 or 3000 series) to save some money and add in the 5000 series later. The 3000 series is a little slower than the intel 9 and 10 series, but you're only going to notice it if you're running the top ranking GPU like an RTX3090 or 6900XT. I play some CPU intensive games, but as im 1440p 144hz with only a 1660ti, Im nowhere near CPU bottlenecked. In 'nomral' gaming it really wont make a difference.

Here is an example AMD system
I've also used an SFX power supply as im not sure a standard one fits in an ITX case. But this would be a case of just dropping in a 5000 series CPU if you ever wanted/needed to.

[MikeTheThinker]

Just a thought on motherboard vs add-ins; is the price/performance for on-board SSD drives (i.e. the chip versions) good enough to move to that form as opposed to external SSD drives?

[Alex-W]

2 hours ago, robt100 said:

Here is an example AMD system
 

 It's set to private.

 

2 hours ago, robt100 said:

AMD are the fastest CPUs in all areas now with their latest processors, and you have got the flexibility to maybe buy a new motherboard and an 'old' CPU (2000 or 3000 series) to save some money and add in the 5000 series later. The 3000 series is a little slower than the intel 9 and 10 series, but you're only going to notice it if you're running the top ranking GPU like an RTX3090 or 6900XT. 

 

This is where I'm confused.  The 5600 seems to be better, and the 5700 more so, but they're also far more expensive than their equivalents.

 

Price wise 10600k is the same as the 3600

And the 5600 is a bit more than the i7 10700k

 

But apparently the intel wins in performance..

 

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-10600K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-3600/4072vs4040

 

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-10700K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-5600X/4070vs4084

 

 

As for upgrade path, yeah I suspect sensible upgrade would be new motherboard anyway.   By the time you but a cheap one and then another later you may as well get a decent one now I'd have thought.   Realistically they'll only go down to £150 and that twice is 10700/5600 territory now.  I think it only works if you can jump generations and make a big step change without changing board.  Hence I want to get it right this time...

[Alex-W]

Incidentally, my last 2 desktops have been AMD (athlon and phenom, before it was cool...) And my laptop is an i5, so I have no loyalty 🤣

[Alex-W]

2 hours ago, MikeTheThinker said:

Just a thought on motherboard vs add-ins; is the price/performance for on-board SSD drives (i.e. the chip versions) good enough to move to that form as opposed to external SSD drives?

From what I've read and been told, it's faster, it's worth getting if you need a new drive, but unless you're a very heavy user or really really want to shave 5 seconds off your windows boot time, it's not worth spending loads of money on.  I plan to get one as I need more storage anyway but that's the only reason.

 

The change from hdd to sata ssd was way more needed/noticable by the average user I believe.

 

[cheezemonkhai]

M.2 pci drives are good, not really more expensive...

 

However not a patch on the different between a hdd and a sata ssd.

[robt100]

Should work now https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/MW6sBc

Also, userbenchmark isn't always the best source for working out performance, they switched out how they bias their results between tasks to favour Intel about 12 months ago

the main reason for the price jump is the shortage in availability, the actual MSRP for the 5600X is meant to be about £250 I believe? The had a few over at Aria for £270 today on a limited special but i think they sold out in minutes!

To be honest, either the 3600 or 10600k will be perfectly fine, my only worry with the intel is the heat and power requirements in such a small case. But with gaming your main performance maker is the GPU, that will be the make or break of a system.

[cheezemonkhai]

Getting rid of heat is the biggest problem, after getting the power in....

Intel and AMD have different metrics for how they calculate the stated TDP, but frankly neitehr are a problem compared to a 300W CPU

 

Just plan how you're going to get the cool air in and the hot air out, don't try to complicate the air flow (in at the front, out at the back works well for a reason) and you'll be fine. That and getting a good, stable PSU.

[Alex-W]

After doing a bit more digging I've come to the conclusion that the statement that the Ryzen is better value is kind of true.

 

A significant saving is in the motherboards.  If you want to overlock with a Ryzen you can use most boards and can pick them up cheap.  If you want to overclock with an i5 you need a Z490 board which is more more expensive (£150 vs £90 for ATX or £200 vs £150 for ITX).  

The CPU is a little cheaper but not much and you also don't have to buy a cooler if you are within the limits of the stock one.

 

If you're not interested in overclocking though I think it could be argued that actually, the i5 10400 (£30 less than than the R5) is more of a comparison though and (if you also don't want the other Z features) you can just buy a cheaper intel motherboard and they're about on a par.  

 

Annoyingly, I actually want the higher spec motherboards for non-OC traits such as the USB 3.2 headers, the wifi and BT all integrated.  I'd like to keep it simple and if I want to move the machine, just have to plug in an HDMI and a kettle lead.  

 

I'm not really sure it makes a huge amount of difference, from what I can tell for 'normal' computer use and casual gaming either will blitz what a CPU needs to do (many say a quad core will).   

 

I can't help wondering what people are doing on PCs that needs 8+ cores though.  

[cheezemonkhai]

VMs... development etc?

[Aspman]

Last PC I built I put in a Ryzen 7 first gen

I'm not sure I needed it but I was intending to build a rig that could last.

I was happy with the CPU it gave me no problems (it's been in storage for a year).

 

I've a laptop with an intel core i7 as well and it's plenty fast too.

 

TBH you looking at bang for your buck and tbh that's the only way to go. The Ryzen 5 is probably the sweet spot for that.

Better to spend money on a decent SSD and more RAM

[Alex-W]

From what I can tell, the pricing seems to have changed and it's swung from a clear AMD win for value to about equal.

The i5 is a touch better now, however is a touch more expensive when you consider the motherboard price (the actual CPU is literally £7 different, the motherboards are about £50 more).

 

I'm considering both tbh.   I suspect that both do more than I'll need for quite a while.  

From the reviews/price/features it seems that for Intel it's best to go with the MSI MEG Z490i Unify

For the AMD ones it's best to go for the Gigabyte b550i Aorus Pro ax

 

The latter doesn't have a USB-C front head is the only issue which would be needed/desired for the NZXT case.  

 

Now considering the CM NR200P case.  Only 18.5L and apparently really good airflow/cooling.  Just need to find a cooler that fits under the glass!

 

[gon]

I am a bit in to computers and used to work in the area.

I agree with everything said here but one thing that one must consider is the manufacturing process.

Please don't underestimate the importance of the manufacturing process on the discussion amd vs intel.

AMD is using 7nm whilst Intel is still on 14nm.

 

This mean the actual size of the die inside the CPU is much bigger in the intel, meaning it will generate more heat and when under load it will reduce its own speed to stay cool (unless you go in to water cooling).

Specially considering you are aiming for a small computer case, heat management is of high importance and AMD is just plain better.

 

 

I would go with the 3600 (or the 3500 if you are on a tight budget) unless your budget can stretch to the 5600x.

Please also don't forget you can pair a 3600 or 5600x with a B450 motherboard without much of a performance degradation.

reasonable good ITX MB can be found for <£100

e.g. https://www.cclonline.com/product/258109/B450I-GAMING-PLUS-AC/Motherboards/MSI-B450I-GAMING-PLUS-AC-AMD-Socket-AM4-B450-Chipset-Mini-ITX-Motherboard/MBD2484/

 

 

 

[Aspman]

^ good points.

 

Personally if you've got space I like a full sized case.

Also I like to fit the largest fans I possibly can. A 140mm fan can move the same volume of air as an 80mm but rotating much slower, it keeps the noise down a lot (anyone old enough to remember the old 80mm Deltas screaming away in a case?).

Ducted fans are also great if you can get them.

[robt100]

If you did want quiet fans, id recommend BeQuiet Silentwings. got 3 120mm ones in my rig and at idle they run at less than 10db when the soundmeter is less than 20cm away. Noisest thing is the GPU fan!

[Alex-W]

8 hours ago, gon said:

I am a bit in to computers and used to work in the area.

I agree with everything said here but one thing that one must consider is the manufacturing process.

Please don't underestimate the importance of the manufacturing process on the discussion amd vs intel.

AMD is using 7nm whilst Intel is still on 14nm.

 

This mean the actual size of the die inside the CPU is much bigger in the intel, meaning it will generate more heat and when under load it will reduce its own speed to stay cool (unless you go in to water cooling).

Specially considering you are aiming for a small computer case, heat management is of high importance and AMD is just plain better.

 

 

I would go with the 3600 (or the 3500 if you are on a tight budget) unless your budget can stretch to the 5600x.

Please also don't forget you can pair a 3600 or 5600x with a B450 motherboard without much of a performance degradation.

reasonable good ITX MB can be found for <£100

e.g. https://www.cclonline.com/product/258109/B450I-GAMING-PLUS-AC/Motherboards/MSI-B450I-GAMING-PLUS-AC-AMD-Socket-AM4-B450-Chipset-Mini-ITX-Motherboard/MBD2484/

 

 

 

 Many thanks for that, I didn't appreciate the power difference. Less heat is Def better.

Since had a read (skim) of this https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/features/amd-vs-intel-cpus. Which basically says the same.  

 

It does however point out that the 3600 is at the bottom of the pile really. 

Wondering if it's worth waiting for the 5600x to drop a bit (I assume it'll drop to the £200 mark).  

[Alex-W]

5 hours ago, Aspman said:

^ good points.

 

Personally if you've got space I like a full sized case.

Also I like to fit the largest fans I possibly can. A 140mm fan can move the same volume of air as an 80mm but rotating much slower, it keeps the noise down a lot (anyone old enough to remember the old 80mm Deltas screaming away in a case?).

Ducted fans are also great if you can get them.

 

I think things have moved quite a bit with the sff cases, certainly the ones I'm looking at take up to 5 or 6 120mm fans if needed.  I definitely don't want loads of noise so was going to get quiet ones (noctua most likely).  

There's an arguement that you get more movement of air in a little case as you don't have stagnant volume.  

I mainly just want to stop having a big tower under my desk, getting the dust in it from the floor, free up leg room and have a little one up top.

[robt100]

16 hours ago, Alex-W said:

 

It does however point out that the 3600 is at the bottom of the pile really. 

Wondering if it's worth waiting for the 5600x to drop a bit (I assume it'll drop to the £200 mark).  

To be honest you will only notice the difference if you're building a rendering machine, or trying to game at 720p using an RTX3090. In 'normal'  GPU/CPU combinations there might be at most a 10fps difference, and if youre only running a 60hz screen then there will be no difference at all. HERE is a good video looking at CPU/GPU scaling, looks at all 4 AMD ryzen generations, and 2 generations (And tiers) of GPU in games at 1080p, 1440p and 2160p. Its probably one of the very few 'reviews' that actually shows the real world difference.

 

 

[Alex-W]

So, as an update, I built this:

 

Asus B550i Motherboard

Ryzen 5 5600X CPU

ID Cooling se224XT Tower Cooler

Adata 1TB NVME

Corsair SF600 PSU

MSI GTX970 GPU (Second hand one from a friend as you can't buy anything newish right now)

Cooler Master NR200P Case

2 x Arctic P12 fans 

 

There's my old SSD/HDDs in there too.  They'll be replaced in time.

 

I got the 5600X in the end, not for performance now as I'll never notice that but more than it'll just last longer and as there's no more AM4 generations I'd rather what I have last as long as possible.

 

Pleased with it though.  Under non gaming loads it's silent.  When playing games it's still quiet.  All stays cool, it's compact, does what I need it to.

Shame I couldn't get a new GPU but I'm playing older stuff right now anyway and the 970 copes fine.  Eventually I'll upgrade.

 

 

 

[AnnoyingPentium]

Lovely build! This year, I decided to upgrade my laptop from a Dell Latitude E6540 to an HP OMEN 15 (model slips my mind currently) in the hopes that my now 10 year old desktop will cling on for just a little bit longer haha

[cheezemonkhai]

On 19/02/2021 at 11:43, gon said:

I am a bit in to computers and used to work in the area.

I agree with everything said here but one thing that one must consider is the manufacturing process.

Please don't underestimate the importance of the manufacturing process on the discussion amd vs intel.

AMD is using 7nm whilst Intel is still on 14nm.

 

This mean the actual size of the die inside the CPU is much bigger in the intel, meaning it will generate more heat and when under load it will reduce its own speed to stay cool (unless you go in to water cooling).

Specially considering you are aiming for a small computer case, heat management is of high importance and AMD is just plain better.

.....

 

Just wanted to clarify that whilst the TMSC 7nm process is more efficient than the 10nm, it in itself doesn't determine the power use of the chip.

Give or take the different methods for calculating it, the TDP is what matters.

 

Why? Just because you can use a 7nm process, if you are to use a different core design that isn't as efficient, then you might need to cram in more transistors and burn the same or more energy for the same performance. Just look at the power used by the 7nm GPU vs a 14nm ARM chip (Obviously very different use cases, but you get the idea).

 

  

On 19/05/2021 at 23:16, Alex-W said:

So, as an update, I built this:

 

Asus B550i Motherboard

Ryzen 5 5600X CPU

ID Cooling se224XT Tower Cooler

Adata 1TB NVME

Corsair SF600 PSU

MSI GTX970 GPU (Second hand one from a friend as you can't buy anything newish right now)

Cooler Master NR200P Case

2 x Arctic P12 fans 

 

There's my old SSD/HDDs in there too.  They'll be replaced in time.

 

I got the 5600X in the end, not for performance now as I'll never notice that but more than it'll just last longer and as there's no more AM4 generations I'd rather what I have last as long as possible.

 

Pleased with it though.  Under non gaming loads it's silent.  When playing games it's still quiet.  All stays cool, it's compact, does what I need it to.

Shame I couldn't get a new GPU but I'm playing older stuff right now anyway and the 970 copes fine.  Eventually I'll upgrade.

 

 

 

 

That's a nice tidy build. Can't say I like the shark fin wifi aerial, but that's completely personal preference.

For an ITX case it looks well thought out.

 

One question, I can see the CPU cooler with the fan, and the fan behind the HDD, but where is the 2nd P12 fan?

I only ask, because as it stands the airflow feels as if it would be a bit weird.

I assume the CPU fan is pushing air through the heatsink to the back of the case, but which way is the fan behind the HDD pushing/pulling?

 

Otherwise it will be interesting to see how the case works out for you as I'll look to replace a very old system in a full tower in the future.

I'd have done it already it it wasn't for supply issues, but waiting for supply to improve on various parts, now means I might as well wait that small bit longer for the next gen memory and PCIe technologies to appear.

 

 

Edited 22 May, 2021 by cheezemonkhai
Typo

[Alex-W]

Behind the HDD is just the PSU, which is pulling air in from the back of the case (vented panel) and pushing it out the top of the case.

 

The PC is on in the picture, however the PSU stops the fan altogether at low loads.

 

The two P12s are at the bottom, under the gpu and there's 2 cooler master sickleflow fans at the top that came with the case, so the general airflow is bottom to top.  

 

The additional P12 on the tower cooler (I swapped out the stock fan as the p12 is quieter) presently exhausts out theb back yes, however I may swap to rear inlet so it gets fresh air rather than warm air from the gpu.

 

Temps are good though.

Under gaming loads the CPU temp maxes out at maybe 65, even with the rear exhaust config.

Under stress test on the cpu it also reaches around the same (no gpu).

Idle is about 37 degrees.

 

I originally had a 3600 in there before the the 5600x and the latter dropped temps by about 10 degrees across most of the range.

 

The case also came with a vented side panel as well as glass and you can mount additional fans on there or an aoi if preferred but that's overkill for a 5600x.

[Alex-W]

This photo better shows the fans pre gpu/CPU/cooler