Has my local garage ruined my snow monster?

[peeeturrrr]

Hello everybody!

 

I've been the proud owner of a Yeti Adventure 63 plate from new.  Never had a problem and for the first five years had it serviced at dealer with that service plan thing which they sold me.  I read about the Haldex change at 40K and insisted that was done despite them not doing in the first instance.

 

This last November the MOT was due again and I took it to local garage who passed it with an advisory that the propshaft balance weight be replaced due to worn rubber.  They explained that if it were to fail it can result in an expensive repair because it is next to a wiring loom that might be severely damaged.

 

So I had the work done, cost about £350 I think.  On driving off from the garage, straight away I noticed a droning, humming sound coming from the rear.  My Yeti had never made any sound like that before so it was instantly apparent.  The frequency of the sound is commensurate with the speed of travel.  It's far more noticeable on the run-on (as I now know it to be called).  Above 60mph and it is so loud that my 5yr old in the back seat cannot understand me even if I raise my voice.

 

Obviously I've read the forums and the posts about similar but frankly I am none-the-wiser because I'm far more a computer person than a mechanic!

 

I haven't driven it much recently and hardly ever at high speed so wasn't too bothered until we visited grandparents over Easter.

 

So I took it back to the garage last week and complained about the noise.  He had it for a day and on collection said there was hardly any oil in the rear diff, which he replaced foc after draining, and that what came out was a metallic colour.  He said the noise remained and that might cure over time with the new oil.

 

Anyway I've done a few hundred miles, and the noise is as bad as ever.

 

I don't know what to do.  Can anybody on here offer some advice please?

 

Peter

[xman]

Oooh... @J.R. and others will explain but afaik its likely the wrong drain plug was removed, instead of draining the haldex, he drained the diff and presumably tried refilling the haldex, leaving the diff dry which is now completely knackered.

[J.R.]

I doubt that the problem was caused when they changed the propshaft Guibo coupling unless you asked them to service the Haldex at the same time.

 

The problem is as Xman points out and the guilty party will be the last person to have (made a mess of) changed the Haldex oil.

 

It will not get better, the most that you can hope for is that it does not get any worse, mine hasn't but the noise would only be noticable to someone like me with a sympathetic mechanical ear and who had driven the car before, yours sounds terminal I'm afraid to say.

 

Second hand diffs on ebay start at £240 delivered.

[Trevor M]

If the local garage serviced the Haldex and / or diff. and then the same garage confirmed there was little/ insufficient oil in the diff., it is clear where the blame lies I would have thought.

You may have made a mistake in not returning to the garage immediately you noticed the noise in any case. It is probable you could have avoided too much damage; continuing to use it is also likely to mean there is a cost to you because of the resulting damage.

 

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh (it is not meant to,) you have my sympathies.

 

PS: If the local garage only changed the coupling (and did not work on the Haldex / diff.) immediately before the noise started, it may be the new coupling and / or fitting of same is at fault and the low diff. oil is a coincidence.

[Ootohere]

@peeeturrrr Welcome to the forum.

?

How many miles has the car done?

 

In the 5 years you have had the Yeti what servicing has the Haldex had, is it just the once?  Not the rear diff, but the haldex.

ie, 

& What year was the 40,000 mile Haldex Service done?

 

 

It should have been serviced in 2016 or 2017, and if first @2017  then serviced again in 2020?

The service interval is @ 3 years / 30,000 miles, but before that it was said by Skoda Dealership staff as being at 4 years. Some even said @ 40,000 miles.

 

Best ask at the Dealership which hole they say the technician used to top up the diff.

Edited 15 April, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[J.R.]

Its unclear from the postings who did what and when but I can dispel some of the suggestions from my own experience, low diff oil, to be more precise "virtually empty and came out black and discoloured" is in no way a coincidence, it is 100% proof of what occured.

 

When I made the same mistake myself the diff oil that came out after 82000 miles of forestry use was like virgin oil and so clear you could have used it for a salad dressing.

 

After driving 200 miles on what was left coating the internals what drained out was a carbonised black mess full of fine metal particles.

 

I dont think the OP could have driven any great distance or time since the error was made which sounds like it could have been the new garage, however its encouraging that they are not trying to hide what they have found.

[xman]

Apparently its easy to confuse which are the drain and fill plugs for both the Haldex and the Diff which are situated close together. So they could drain the diff thinking it was old Haldex oil, and refill the diff with Haldex oil which is totally different, "non lubricative" fluid used to promote friction on the haldex clutch plates. So will actually destroy a diff in next to no time.

[J.R.]

As someoen who has made the mistake what happens is that you drain the diff as you say and then refill through the Haldex filler leaving the diff dry.

 

A garage that does not do the job properly by removing the pump to clean the filter is more likely to spot the error, that is because a significant amount of Haldex fluid is lost when the pump is removed, when you refill it takes quite a bit but not as much as you expect, you scratch your head, check the internet again for the refill quantity & read conflicting info, you look at what you drained off, it does not look or smell like hypoid EP90 and its far too clean to be diff oil that has done 82K miles, it's not at all viscous, it must be Haldex fluid surely?.....................

 

Very hard to mix up the filler plugs but the diff drain plug is directly underneath the Haldex filler plug, the Haldex drain plug does not look like a drain plug, its just one of the casing securing bolts that when removed you find is longer than the others and does not go into a blind hole.

 

I'd like to say that if I were using a ramp instead of struggling on my back, if the lighting were better, if I were not a senile Mr Maghoo the mistake would not have happened........................ but it probably would

 

It sickens me everytime I read of someone being presented with a £4.5k estimate from a garage to put right their mistake.

[peeeturrrr]

Very useful, thanks...

 

@J.R. you hit the nail on the head, "unless you asked them to service the Haldex at the same time".  So I've spent the evening sifting through my "filing cabinet" and found two receipts from the local garage.  First for service and MOT 26-11-2020, 69562 miles.  Second for "RENEW HALDEX OIL.  SUPPLY AND FIT NEW REAR PROPSHAFT COUPLING", 17-12-2020, 70054 miles.  I think he recommended the Haldex service if I recall.

 

@Trevor M Yes I feel I will come to regret not returning to the garage immediately.  I just assumed the noise was because they fitted what was described as an "aftermarket propshaft balance weight" and that it was just noisy than an original part.

 

@e-Roottoot It has averaged 10K each year from new.  So hats off to the local garage for recommending the Haldex service then!?!?  It's just clicked over 72K now.

 

So it is very clear now what has gone on.  I thought I might take it to a different garage for an assessment as to whether the Haldex oil has actually been changed, as that might prove they drained the rear diff by mistake.  But thinking about it, when I took it back to the garage last week they had it in from 9am til 5.30pm so I suspect they may have covered their tracks.  He was also insistent I had a sniff of the oil container from which they had refilled the rear diff, which is heightening my suspicions.  Having said that he and the rest of the team do seem like very decent folk!

 

Is it safe to drive then?

 

I think I'm going email him a link to my thread on here and see what he comes back with.

 

Thanks again for all the replies!

 

Peter

[Expatman]

I don’t think I would be as understanding and kind as you. They did the work they need to repair it.

[J.R.]

So you have driven 2K miles since the Haldex service never at speed apart from at Easter, short local journeys?

 

Its looking cut and dried but I am surprised that you heard the noise immediately when driving out of the garage yet were able to do another 2K miles, I didn't notice mine until 200 miles and the last 100 were a heavily loaded motorway run.

 

I filled the diff immediately with a paraffin & oil mix, run it on axle stands then drained & refilled with diff oil, I have done 10K miles since, its noisier than I think it should be but has not got any worse thankfully, the car was new to me so maybe the transmission noise I have now is normal, I have dodged a bullet but I wont be confident on the long journeys towing a removal trailer that I have to do soon.

 

 

[peeeturrrr]

Yes, but we live out in the sticks so a short local journey comprises steep hills and sharp bends.  If I hit 60mph it's for a brief moment before slowing down again for the next bend.  The maxidot reports averages of around 25mph.  I should call them arduous short local journeys from the perspective of the Yeti.  From my perspective it's an awesome car especially with the winters on steel rims in the 2020/21 winter we just had.  It does get a hammering.

 

The new noise was absolutely evident on the one mile journey from the garage back to home.  It would be hard to say if it has got worse since then because I don't think a gradual deterioration would be noticeable.  Save to say the difference after it came back from the garage on that fateful day was like night and day.

 

Last weekend I did about 50 miles on the A1M with three passengers and it was terribly, worryingly loud.  I think if you only think it's noisier than it should be, then it ain't nowhere near as bad as my SM .  You likely did dodge that bullet, and from what you've said it's increasingly evident I haven't.  Because it drives perfectly fine, like I said I thought it was just because I opted for the cheapo aftermarket part.

 

Also have a trailer myself and I shall dare not tow it now I know this is related to load.

 

What will happen in a failure then?  Is it dangerous?

[Ootohere]

The threads are on here with the pics of holes in the rear diff where it has turned to shrapnel. Several threads including recent ones.  Best get the Haldex checked. The pump removed and cleaned if not done and the correct fluid in. Then the rear diff oil changed. Just to be sure to be sure.     ? What was the cost already of the Haldex Service. Or was that just included with the other labour cost.     In the Yeti Guides section there is a very good guide to the Servicing of the Haldex, just so anyone can see what is required.

Edited 16 April, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[J.R.]

4 hours ago, peeeturrrr said:

What will happen in a failure then?  Is it dangerous?

 

Impossible to say without knowing what parts have worn, the crown wheel & pinion, the planet gears, the pinion bearing, the crown wheel bearings etc.

 

I have had a diff on a Suzuki SJ410 that made a screeching noise and would grind the car to a juddering halt with people 200m away turning round staring, when I removed it it was in pristine condition, simply resetting the pinion to crownwheel mesh and the bearing pre-load cured it completely, I had one on an Escort that made no noise but would lock up randomly on roundabouts or when on lock turning into a parking place.

 

As has been said some Skoda rear diffs have exploded when run dry of oil but they were all very soon after the deed had been done.

[Ootohere]

For the sake of an hours labour and oils best not gamble & be sure the correct work has been done..

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/447657-rear-differential-destroyed-help-please

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/428562-rear-diff-failure-following-haldex-oil-change

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/356099-octavia-rear-differential-failure

 

[J.R.]

Reading through the various topics linked from other Haldex failure topics it appears that very little has been learned in the last decade.

 

I am quoting from a 2012 posting:

 

However Skoda have a tech note to warn of mechanics mistakenly draining the final drive oil instead of (or as well as) the clutch oil and not reflling it causing final drive failure.

[Dale_Stevens]

Sadly it's not surprising that garages are making these kind of mistakes. When I wanted my Haldex oil changed and pump cleaned I visited a few independent VW garages, only to find most of them didn't have a clue what I was on about. Eventually I found one garage that knew all about the issue, so I had them do the work.

 

When dropping the car off I commented that I daren't trust myself not to drain the diff by mistake, and were pleased they were doing the work for me. They cleaned the pump and took before and after photos for me. 

 

Even so, when driving out of the garage I was concentrating on listening for any tell tale noises as a sign that the diff oil had been drained by mistake. I daren't even have the car radio on for the first few days, so paranoid was I. If I wasn't the type of person who researches almost everything, I wouldn't;t have know about the need for the pump tp be cleaned, and like so many others I would perhaps have suffered from Haldex failure.

 

 

Edited 17 April, 2021 by Dale_Stevens

[Dale_Stevens]

By the way, at what point would the diff oil need changing, as I can't find any reference to it on any service schedules?

[J.R.]

Never would be my answer seeing how virgin like mine was after 82K miles.

[peeeturrrr]

A quick update, and another question please...

 

Took my car to another garage in town and had them check it out.  Didn't really tell me a right lot I don't know from Briskodian's already, other than to confirm it was definitely the diff causing the noise and that there was no oil leak from the diff.  Ruled out other sources of the noise.

 

So I went back to my local garage to "have it out" with them, and like I said before they're very nice and genuine folk.  He denied draining the diff, and I agreed I should have brought the car back as soon as I noticed the noise.

 

Anyhow if I buy the diff he will fit it f.o.c. and go 50/50 on the cost of the oils etc.

 

Question - are all Yeti diffs the same?  Pre and post facelift? Auto / manual?  I've no idea.  There are plenty on eBay, like @J.R. has noted previously, starting at around £240.  Also got some quotes through from PartsGateway but they're substantially dearer for what seems to be the same thing.  Any advice on purchasing a diff most welcome please!

 

The noise is getting worse, got to drive to Sheffield in the morning so I hope it doesn't die on me!!!

[J.R.]

I believe that the ratios are all the same as they simply have to be the same as the front transfer box, the various front differential ratios take care of the various gearing configurations for the different engines.

 

What will be different on the differentials will be the haldex coupling and its controller, MK4, MK5 etc (if I have got that right)

 

I got the part  number for mine from 7 zap and all the ones that I saw on E-bay for later vehicles had the same part number, its visible on a plate or a sticker.

[J.R.]

No labour for the fitting and a contribution towards the oils etc is actually a good result if the garage are otherwise good guys and you want to continue using them, it allows them to save face.

 

I know many wont agree with my sentiments but were they to insist on the garage shouldering their responsabilities they would end up paying the labour at another garage and losing the future service of the good (most of the time) guys.

 

Everybody makes a mistake at some time, they have as good as admitted that they did.

[Dale_Stevens]

54 minutes ago, peeeturrrr said:

 

The noise is getting worse, got to drive to Sheffield in the morning so I hope it doesn't die on me!!!

I live in Sheffield and If things don’t work out with your garage I can recommend a good VW independent garage in Sheffield. They were the only ones that knew about the need to clean the Haldex filter and took before and after photos for me. Non of the other places I visited knew anything about cleaning the filter. 

[peeeturrrr]

update

 

Got a diff from the popular auction site and guess what?!?  The Haldex connector is different!!!  The seller agreed to take it back and has arranged the collection for tomorrow so I'm not out of pocket.  I did put in my reg and the part was listed as compatible with my model.  Unfortunately the seller says they don't have a diff that will fit.  Anybody have a diff for sale?

[ejstubbs]

On 22/04/2021 at 21:14, J.R. said:

Everybody makes a mistake at some time, they have as good as admitted that they did.

 

But AFAICS the mistake which they have admitted making basically destroyed the differential.  They may deny draining it, but there was "hardly any" oil in it when the OP took it back so...

 

IMO they aren't behaving in quite such a "nice and genuine" way as the OP believes.  Asking the OP to pay for a replacement when it's their fault the original became irreparably damaged  sounds like some serious mickey-taking to me.  I'd be seriously considering setting Trading Standards on to them, they love this kind of thing.