hydrogen powered cars

[Stuart-h]

With the ban on "new" diesel and petrol ban in a few does the vag group plan to build hydrogen powered cars along side the electric equilverent?

[skomaz]

Don't think so - they seem to be backing BEV's with only Mercedes, Honda, Hyundai and Toyota actively looking at Hydrogen fuel cells (Toyota have just launched the new Mirai)

[wyx087]

All other coloured hydrogen are such a con, they are like "self charging hybrids", the energy still comes from fossil fuel. Only viable alternative to power trasnports besides using batteries would be green hydrogen and possibly synthetic fuel for existing engines.

 

But green hydrogen only retains about 70% of its input power when you get it into your car. From electricity production to wheel efficiency is shockingly bad. Until we have completely limitless free energy, wasting efficiency like this simply does not make any sense what so ever.

 

Currently, there is a paradigm shift in how we fuel our cars. It makes total sense to use this opportunity to use the most efficient approach.

 

 

Hydrogen has its place for energy/weight critical applications. That would be shipping industry from giant container ships to long haul trucks. Passenger cars can already do 300+ miles range and recharge in 20min, we really don't need to suffer the horrendous efficiency loss.

[dieselV6]

These graphs completely neglect energy storage. Fossil fuels as well as synthetically made fuels using green electricity have storage and transport costs over magnitude lower than electricity stored in current batteries.

For starters, for the same amount of energy stored, you need 40x - 50x heavier storage for electricity in a lithium battery than for kerosene or diesel.

 

300miles is still not sufficient range for significant percentage of cars, mine included (I need 1500, or 400 under worst of winter/night,  with <15min refuel).

 

I think that to completely remove fossil fueled cars, ships and planes, humanity will eventually need to go back to liquid organic fuels, only made using wholly renewable means.

Biodiesel from algae, anyone (harvested/processed using offshore wind electricity)? Not a solution for town centres, but certainly for ships and planes.

 

[wyx087]

14 hours ago, dieselV6 said:

These graphs completely neglect energy storage. Fossil fuels as well as synthetically made fuels using green electricity have storage and transport costs over magnitude lower than electricity stored in current batteries.

Energy storage is only really required for synthetically made fuel, where it has to be generated from electricity and stored waiting for fuel-up.

How much time does a passenger car typically spend parked? When it is parked, it can be plugged in. When it is plugged in, battery EV is in effect a connected battery that can take (or even give) energy according to fluctuating energy production/demand. This effectively cuts out the unnecessary intermediate storage part completely.

The vast majority of cars is parked somewhere overnight. Overnight is least carbon intensive and the grid has the most spare capacity: https://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-UK-grid-CO2-intensity-variations-by-year.html#fullyear2009

 

14 hours ago, dieselV6 said:

300miles is still not sufficient range for significant percentage of cars, mine included (I need 1500, or 400 under worst of winter/night,  with <15min refuel).

This is rather unrealistic, EV range only really need to satisfy either daily driving requirement or single leg of a journey between rest-stops.

I'm sorry that you have to drive 400 miles almost everyday. Driving continuously for 400 miles is ~7 hours non-stop on the motorway, this is very dangerous.

 

14 hours ago, dieselV6 said:

I think that to completely remove fossil fueled cars, ships and planes, humanity will eventually need to go back to liquid organic fuels, only made using wholly renewable means.

As long as combustion of those new fuels have been extensively researched and have zero tailpipe emissions that could turn out to be a serious health risk, then I'm all for it.

EV in its current form (overnight charging) isn't for everyone, there is still need for direct replacement to petrol station forecourt refuelling model.

[KenONeill]

32 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Energy storage is only really required for synthetically made fuel, where it has to be generated from electricity and stored waiting for fuel-up.

With a BEV, we call this a "battery" (strictly an accumulator but still), and I'm afraid that this is exactly what it does: Store (electrical) energy, waiting for it to be converted into kinetic energy by using the vehicle.

[cheezemonkhai]

Those graphs neglect transmission losses on the grid or the energy costs of upgrading the grid.

 

What about the mining of lithium etc?

 

New battery tech is needed and hydrogen produced using off peak renewable electricity is a good energy store.

 

The sheer weight of batteries, combined with how nasty they are to make and limited range/charge times are all serious problems.

 

I say this even as we consider a BEV for the shorter journeys.

[wyx087]

43 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Those graphs neglect transmission losses on the grid

I believe that is listed as "Transportation, storage and distribution" on the graph.

 

44 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

energy costs of upgrading the grid.

 

hydrogen produced using off peak renewable electricity is a good energy store.

 

I think you've answered your question on upgrading the grid: it doesn't need upgrading. Vast majority of all vehicles are parked overnight during low demand periods. So battery electric vehicles can be used as energy storage as well as current vehicle duties.

 

46 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

What about the mining of lithium etc?

 

New battery tech is needed

 

The sheer weight of batteries, combined with how nasty they are to make and limited range/charge times are all serious problems.

I completely agree with these points. Mining lithium is the least of the worries, it's the other materials that's the bigger problem, mainly cobalt. When we get better battery tech, I'm sure car manufacturers will be eager to adopt.

 

But on the other hand, turning one ICE sale to EV sale today means (on average) 10+ years of zero tailpipe emissions from today, We cannot afford to wait for the next best thing. Cars live a long life and a polluting ICE car will pollute for the duration of its lifetime.

[KenONeill]

18 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

So battery electric vehicles can be used as energy storage as well as current vehicle duties.

So you're happy for me to siphon half the diesel out of your Octy the night before you go off on holiday. That's exactly analogous; removing the fuel from your vehicle when it suits me.

[cheezemonkhai]

Transmission losses are definitely more than 6%.
 

As for the upgrades, IMHO totally required at any point of large demand. For example charging points on motorways, car parks etc. Even a lowly home charging point at 3kw is a kettle on for 8-12 hours to slow charge. 
In the UK 3 phase to the home is very unusual, so it’s thicker cables (higher currents and more transmission losses) or 3 phase upgrades that will be required.

 

Also people need to understand that a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is an EV.

Getting localised pollution down is achieved and green hydrogen is no harder than green electric.

 

Goal 1 is to get people off ICE. Range and charging infrastructure are issues for battery EV. I’d happily have one BEV and one fuel cell for longer journeys. As things stand today it’s one BEV and a new diesel.

[J.R.]

On 14/07/2021 at 13:27, wyx087 said:

 

 

 

Can someone please explain to me how they make petrol and diesel from green electricity by electrolysis CO2 capture and synthesis?

 

Or even why anyone would consider doing so? It says clearly power to liquid.

 

Bull***t baffles brains and this has baffled mine.

[Pagan-Image]

The biggest issue I have with EVs is the longevity of the batteries. You may well get 300 miles per charge when new, but as the batteries gets older this decreases. This has been proven true for many EVs, I have yet to see any statistics from newer generation EVs that show that this has changed.

 

As someone who does drive longish distances for work (250miles per time generally) I could justify a 300 mile range as I could recharge when I get to my destination, but if that range decreases after a year I would spend more time filling up, and I'm sorry but my time is more precious to me than that, especially as its not exactly a quick pit stop.

 

A Hydrogen powered car may not be as efficient, but it would be consistent in its range and performance over time.

 

All of these technologies will need to significantly improve to match what we have now before they become a realistic alternative for many.

Edited 28 July, 2021 by Pagan-Image

[Ootohere]

I watched War Factories last week and it was about Germany and WW2 and the production of Synthetic Fuel and the Hydro Power Generators that were built for Hitler and how much the Allies wanted these sites destroyed and the US Oil / Fuel producers wanted all trace of them to gone after the war, and any

thought of synthetic fuels.

 

@Pagan-Image

Business users & individuals leasing or even buying EV's have the Warrantied Life of Batteries to deal with worries.

Then there is real life and not just 'myths'.

 

You need to go look in the EV section here and the Vids and links to the over 10 year old EV's getting new Batteries fittted, or new cells and they live on.

Older EV's that have more issue with rust than they do with Motors or Batteries.

Then the modern batteries & Motors going into Classic Vehicles to give them a new life.

 

Hydrogen Vehicles are doing pretty well in the North East of Scotland where Hydrogen fillups are possible and where there is so much Electric Generation going to waste if not used and no way of storing other than producing Hydrogen with it.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/440073-first-hydrogen-taxi-in-scotland-aberdeen

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/455800-hydrogen-fuel-cells

 

Edited 28 July, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[Pagan-Image]

14 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

I watched War Factories last week and it was about Germany and WW2 and the production of Synthetic Fuel and the Hydro Power Generators that were built for Hitler and how much the Allies wanted these sites destroyed and the US Oil / Fuel producers wanted all trace of them to gone after the war, and any

thought of synthetic fuels.

 

@Pagan-Image

You need to go look in the EV section here and the Vids and links to the over 10 year old EV's getting new Batteries fittted, or new cells and they live on.

Older EV's that have more issue with rust than they do with Motors or Batteries.

Then the modern batteries & Motors going into Classic Vehicles to give them a new life.

 

I have no issue with EVs, as such, it is just for me the range is not enough yet to generate enough confidence that I could use one for all my driving needs.

 

Even a 10% decrease in an expected range of 300 miles would significantly impact on what I need to do.

 

This is also taken from my own experience, I rented a Tesla when i was between cars and used it to go to the office (Basingstoke) at the start it had more than enough range (340 Miles IIRC) by the time i got to the office (230 Miles) , driving in a economical way the range was at under 40 miles.

When we get to the point (and we will) that these vehicles have a 400-500 mile range, then I could be confident that one would fulfil my needs. When I have to drive to Basingstoke from North Lincolnshire one day, then go to Gateshead the next then home, neither I or the company I work for can justify the time taken to recharge during the journey.

 

For me the technology is not quite there YET!

Edited 28 July, 2021 by Pagan-Image

[Ootohere]

Maybe you can not use where you drive or need to charge, but there are reps driving many hundreds of miles daily and weekly that are doing just fine.

They pay less taxes and even charging at the most expensive public chargers they save hundreds of quid a month compared to the diesels they used to drive.

I meet them all the time.  

It is a lifestyle change, they have to decide what to do with the extra cash they have now.

 

 

Edited 28 July, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[Pagan-Image]

@e-Roottoot I watch the development of the technologies with a lot of interest, as I certainly don't enjoy paying for the fuel I do, which is one of the reasons that I trialled the tesla, and I will certainly be making the change at some point in the future to a more sustainable method of propulsion. 

 

I need more confidence that EVs will do what I need them to do. To bring the thread back on track, I think Hydrogen or synthetic fuels will be a more realistic alternative.

[Ootohere]

The Renewable Energy Producers do not want to change easily generated electricity to hydrogen to then put into vehicles, they want to be able to have electricity stored in vehicles and vehicle to grid.

 

They want Hydrogen used to heat buildings, be used efficiently when it is used, and they do not want to store large amounts or be moving it around in hydrogen powered tankers at sea or by road.

 

Synthetic Fuels require huge amounts of electricity to produce, just as Diesel / Petrol and other fuels or petrochemicals do.

Grangemouth requires Oil & Gas from the North Sea and Gas from the US just to run the refinery and cracking plant.

They generate their own electricity from oil & gas to produce liquid & gas fuels.

 

.............................................

This is what 132 Solar Canopy parking places with 70 EV charging points looks like in Scotland.

Only issue is not enough Rapid Charging points but that will get addressed.

Government / Local Authority / Public funded, not a commercial enterprise. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 July, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

So you're happy for me to siphon half the diesel out of your Octy the night before you go off on holiday. That's exactly analogous; removing the fuel from your vehicle when it suits me.

Energy storage can mean:

1. Used as a sink, storing the energy when there is excess demand
2. Used as a two-way buffer, storing and then retrieving the energy when needed

We have already achieved number 1 on a large scale with today's technology. You are thinking of #2 and it is entirely configurable, you can say "tomorrow morning I need 100% battery at 7am", this is achievable with today's tech, but not yet widely available.

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

As for the upgrades, IMHO totally required at any point of large demand. For example charging points on motorways, car parks etc. Even a lowly home charging point at 3kw is a kettle on for 8-12 hours to slow charge. 
In the UK 3 phase to the home is very unusual, so it’s thicker cables (higher currents and more transmission losses) or 3 phase upgrades that will be required.

Don't necessarily need large upgrades at large charging hubs. You can put in energy storage as buffer. Existing examples are Tesla South Mimms services 12 stall supercharger (which continued to operate even during power cut), Braintree GridServe electric forecourt.

 

For homes, 3 phase is definitely not needed. 7kW charging will be the standard. It is 32 amps (out of 100 amp house fuse) will top up almost 50kWh over 7 hours, meaning recharging 150-250 miles everyday during off-peak periods.

 

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Also people need to understand that a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is an EV.

Getting localised pollution down is achieved and green hydrogen is no harder than green electric.

 

Goal 1 is to get people off ICE. Range and charging infrastructure are issues for battery EV. I’d happily have one BEV and one fuel cell for longer journeys. As things stand today it’s one BEV and a new diesel.

Agree with these. The metric is both localised pollution and also vehicle lifetime greenhouse gas emission.

But even with greenest hydrogen, I'm guessing lifetime greenhouse gas emission will be not much better than existing most efficient ICE cars. Green electricity isn't  emission free unfortunately.

 

Have you seen my 2 family cars? As you've pointed out, current public charging infrastructure is not there yet. (perhaps except for a Tesla)

 

 

23 minutes ago, Pagan-Image said:

Even a 10% decrease in an expected range of 300 miles would significantly impact on what I need to do.

Have you considered buying an EV with 350 miles range for your very regular and time-critical 300 miles journey? The long range versions of Tesla you've tried can easily achieve over 300 miles. They've been shown to degrade around 5% after 100k miles.

 

Do remember there are low-spec petrol cars with shorter range....... you wouldn't buy a 300 miles range petrol car (eg. my parent's Volvo S40 mk2 1.6l) for your use-case either.

Edited 28 July, 2021 by wyx087

[cheezemonkhai]

On the house point, yes your house has 100A fuse, but all the points leading up to the house don’t assume a 100A draw from everyone at the same time.

If everyone is charging 1 or 2 cars at 32/64 Amp in the street, then the infrastructure will need an upgrade.

 

Hydrogen from excess wind/hydro is a lot cleaner than petrol of diesel and you might as well do something useful with that electric.

 

On the life time costs… I imagine batteries and the sheer weight of BEV means a hydrogen and BEV are probably a lot closer than you expect.

 

At the end of the day there is room for both, particularly with freight or industrial buildings needing clean energy.

 

On the front of your cars, no I’ve not seen your two cars, what do you currently use? Things don’t currently work for us as both being BEV as when I was travelling it was almost nothing or 500-700 miles a day.

 

Another consideration that many forget is the cost of even a small BEV is way above a fiesta and that will price many poorer families off the road. That’s not going to be popular or fair if only those with lots of money can have a car.

 

Edited 28 July, 2021 by cheezemonkhai
Clean up

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

On the house point, yes your house has 100A fuse, but all the points leading up to the house don’t assume a 100A draw from everyone at the same time.

If everyone is charging 1 or 2 cars at 32/64 Amp in the street, then the infrastructure will need an upgrade.

This is only really needed if everyone drives 200 miles every day. The average commuting distance is something like 35 miles IIRC? That means a 1-2 hours top-up every day, easily manageable for the whole neighbourhood, where it is likely to have been provisioned for at least 3kW load (mid-match kettle) from every house.

 

Today's OLEV grant approved chargers all will automatically load-balance the EV charging against home electrical uses. They also all must be "smart" perhaps for the same reasons you've stated.

 

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

At the end of the day there is room for both, particularly with freight or industrial buildings needing clean energy.

Totally! Hydrogen has its places for much larger applications, where size constraint won't hamper its efficiency.

 

It's just, passenger cars doesn't really make sense to feed the already low efficiently produced green-hydrogen into very the tiny low efficient hydrogen fuel-cell. It simply doesn't make sense to turn 1kWh of energy that could have powered a very capable and convenient car 4 miles, into a less capable and not as convenient car that can only drive 2 miles.

 

We, as a species, has already wasted enough energy........

 

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

On the front of your cars, no I’ve not seen your two cars, what do you currently use? Things don’t currently work for us as both being BEV as when I was travelling it was almost nothing or 500-700 miles a day.

 

Another consideration that many forget is the cost of even a small BEV is way above a fiesta and that will price many poorer families off the road. That’s not going to be popular or fair if only those with lots of money can have a car.

Guess you are on mobile? it's in the nameplate. I drive the family Skoda Octavia when wife wants to drive her Nissan Leaf. Otherwise I drive the Leaf. Octy is for long distance or boot size required. Leaf covers the other 80+% of our daily uses.

 

The second hand Leaf was very cheap to buy, no more expensive than a Yaris hybrid or similar aged Golf. But since 2017, where demand for EV have picked up, EV prices, even for used, is higher than comparable fossil cars.

 

However, one has to remember the vastly cheaper running cost of EV's. You can effectively spend 2/3 of your fossil fuel cost on EV's, wasn't this the reason many people man-maths justified for diesel? Many people lease or PCP their car, so this means prices are actually comparable between a £200pm Golf vs a £250 pm ID3.

Edited 28 July, 2021 by wyx087

[Ootohere]

Angus Council have Dozens of EV's on lease sitting doing nothing lots of the time, and no Car Club arrangement allowing them to be hired by the public when available like over night, holidays / festive season etc like other Local Authorities do.

 

There could be Hydrogen Cars and Vans as well as Electric Ones available to Employees & the Public and Hydrogen Filling Stations like in Aberdeen.

 

I think as Honda leave the UK the possibility for more affordable Hydrogen Vehicles for the UK will reduced. 

 

All sorts need developed and invested in.    Hydrogen Commercials make more sense for those needing towing ability and load carrying and not just the likes of Commercial EV's that can not travel City to City if that means more than 120 miles.  If they are to do that distances they need guaranteed rapid charging facilities to be able to allow them to keep on working.

[Ootohere]

More easy hiring of Alternative Fuel Vehicles are required Nationwide, and collect and drop off, or turn up with a vehicle needing charged and drive off in another.

 

BMW were the ones that were going to have Hubs where you drive in with your or your leased vehicle and drive out with another, car, van, motorcycle you are borrowing.

 

The New Subscription Schemes that the Government and the Government Special Friend that helped in supplying the money to  pay for 10 (11) Downing Streets redecoration is behind will lead to ease of changing vehicles that are on rent.

Edited 28 July, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[cheezemonkhai]

I'd certainly appreciate a hydrogen filling infrastructure and no doubt it would help some of the larger O&G companies transition (or die if they don't) to using oils for materials not burning and generating clean hydrogen for example.

 

For me I just think it's not a solved problem and range anxiety/lack of range without a big spend is a real issue.

 

As an example and to make use of a BEV, I need to:

 

 - Put in a charging point (no government grant as a car with the range I need would be over the low limit)

 - Buy the car (A big expense)

 - Plan every journey a lot more carefully and put at least a single 1 hour break into longer journey (And hope a fast DC charger is available and working)

 

Really to do it right I also need to:

 - Put in solar panels or find a suitable electric tarif.

 - Add solar batteries, so I can top the batteries up in the day and charge the car from them when I am home and it's dark

 

To do the same for hydrogen:

 

 - Find a fuel station that sells hydrogen (Yes a big problem currently)

 - Buy a car and use it

 

If they were to fix the fuel stations selling hydrogen (Not hard really, just some tax relief on sites selling it), you could move people from petrol and diesel very easily.

Even if they're not the final answer, it's a big step in the right direction with minimal distruption. Plus as you say, the infrastructure can be used for HGV etc.

BEV certainly make more sense for a 1-30 mile commute as you can charge that overnight from a wall plug without any issue, I just don't think we're there yet.

 

It will of course be interesting to see where it's all at in 10-20 years time.

 

As for your choice of car (I was on mobile), then yes that's where we are at. BEV for up to 100 miles in each direction (Assume no charging at the other end) and ICE for when I need certainty on time/load carrying or just into remote areas.

 

To be honest the whole grant for BEV situation is currently rediculously confusing and restrictive that it doesn't seem to incentivise me at all (But that's for another thread I will start elsewhere).

 

FWIW if Merc offered a fuel cell vehicle, which could do say 30 miles on the smoothing battery, I'd be very interested in an estate.

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

As an example and to make use of a BEV, I need to:

 

 - Put in a charging point (no government grant as a car with the range I need would be over the low limit)

 - Buy the car (A big expense)

 - Plan every journey a lot more carefully and put at least a single 1 hour break into longer journey (And hope a fast DC charger is available and working)

The OLEV home charge point applies to all cars purchased, from second hand to the most expensive EV. It's the EV purchase grant that has been restricted to £35k.

 

Yes, it's stupid that we are in 2021, 10 years after first mass produced car with rapid charging capability (Nissan Leaf), we still have to carefully plan the journey. So many places have just a single charger and so many of those charger are unreliable. But for motorway/A road services, a few months ago, GridServe have just started to change that.

 

 

Having the ability to charge at home, I don't think I've ever felt range anxiety in our in winter 60 miles Leaf. Unlike ICE cars, getting stuck in slow moving traffic doesn't increase consumption. Just a quick glance at distance and we can set off every morning knowing exactly how much range the car will have left on returning.

 

Driving EV, I've only ever experienced one anxiety: charger anxiety. Whether the charger I'm driving approaching is available, working and connected to its network.

 

To be honest, if I had a 200 miles range (that's over 3 hours motorway driving, we usually rest every 2 hours) car that can access Tesla level charging network (6-12 stalls per location, high up-time), I don't think there's any reason to drive ICE or hydrogen cars at all. Sure, on the odd days we go somewhere 150 miles away, 300 miles return trip, we will need to stop for a charge on the way home. But 90% other times I'd be charging at home. As long as I don't have charger anxiety for that 10%.

Edited 28 July, 2021 by wyx087

[Ootohere]

If this is the future then just bring it on.   Just forget the silly light colour seat & door card materials.