4 minutes ago, Wino said:

Huh?

STP EZ Chill says R134a (even though it isn't), that's not the current AC gas. Which product do you mean in the first bit of your sentence?

 

The way I read the Halfords/STP  guff was that it was for R134a systems, but the actual wording, I seem to remember did not say that explicitly, which will be why they can legally sell it as it is not an F gas.

 

Edit:- yes I know that R134a is not the current "in use for new cars" AC gas, I was referring to the fact that STP also sell a product for the 1234yr or whatever it is called.

Edited 29 July, 20214 yr by rum4mo

If anyone actually cares what's in STP EZ chill, allegedly if you buy some at Halfords in store they will allow you to see the MSDS if you ask. 

I imagine they'd be less reluctant to offer this if the customer in question was using a trade discount card, if such things still exist.

 

Edited 29 July, 20214 yr by Wino

OK so today I went to Kwik fit to regas our 2011 Octavia, so I will describe the experience and correct some of what I posted earlier.

 

Background: Aircon had stopped working a couple of months ago, maybe longer. IIRC, it had been regassed just over a year ago, (could have been two), and back then it had zero gas in but came back to life after the regas. So I knew it had a slow leak and possibly may not work this time round.

 

Today: The Kwikfit manager explained what they would do, asked me to hang around for 5 mins while they connected the (Robinair) machine and did a pre check. Informed me that there was no pressure in the cars system and advised that 9 out of 10 times it probably indicates a significant leak/fault. However he was perfectly happy to proceed on my instruction with the proviso he could not guarantee how long the ac would continue to work after regassing, maybe only a few weeks.

 

After a further 45 mins, he broke the bad news that even though the regas was successful, the ac was still not blowing cold, for some unknown reason the compressor wasn't doing its job. Explained the car compressor is a continuous variable type, ie no clutch so it may be an electrical or sensor issue.

 

Showed me the log on the machine's screen:

 

26g gas extracted

10 minute vacuum hold test succesful

Succesfully refilled with 500g gas (didnt notice until later that should have been 585g but still should have worked)

 

So given 2 options

 

1. Leave the gas in the cars ac , required if further fault diagnosis is to be undertaken (which kwikfit don't do). In this case kwikfit would have to charge the full £60 to cover the cost of the gas.

 

2. Recover the gas back to their machine in which case there would be no charge at all. He said I can come back anytime to refill it.

 

So went with option 2, until I decide how to proceed. Took a further 10 mins to recover the gas and no money changed hands.....

 

I asked if recovered gas is reused and he explained recovered gas is filtered and goes back into the machine's internal tank to be reused. This bit surprised me, so on that point I was wrong in my previous post, and got me thinking that maybe its a bad idea, depending on what cars it's been connected to previously to mine. There was only 1.5kg left in the machines 9kg? capacity tank, so theres a strong possibility the gas pushed today was a significant mix of recovered gas. Hopefully not ebay stuff from DIYers cars.

 

But as these machines are ubiquitous, I guess thats a risk anywhere.

 

Overall, a no hassle professional service, no upsell or pushing the cost option.

 

Soon be autuum anyway....

 

Edited 29 July, 20214 yr by xman

Yes, it is a bit of a game, if anyone does end up with a cocktail then that is not good, ideally the recovered gas should get sample checked while it is being recovered and diverted into a waste recovery cylinder for sending away for disposal and not into what will be a decant cylinder inside the all singing and dancing recovery/vac/charging machine.

 

That could be one reason why to get a mobile operator to come to your house and only accept the use of a cylinder with R134a written on it - and a legal one with a one way valve, so that means virgin R134a from a reputable supplier.

 

I'm booked in or my wife's 2015 Polo is booked into ATS Euromaster for a recharge next Wednesday and I'd doubt if I'd get very far asking them if they are using what is currently in the decant cylinder or using virgin R134a - I'll need to remember this time to remove the Lo side dust cap so that I will not have to buy yet another one, a bit of sticky tape will keep that area clean for a few hours.

I would think that the overall rarity of anyone attempting DIY refills - plus the fact that most people going for regassing tend to have very little refrigerant left to extract - would mean the dangers of receiving tainted refrigerant would be negligible.

I would have thought he only recycled the gas back into the machine as he had run a vacuum and knew it was pure r134a.

I suspect that any existing gas in the system is sent for recycling not least because it could be contaminated with moisture from the leak?

^ Logical, yes. 

 

Look, there's a lot of righteous and officious guff being bandied about in here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%2C1%2C1%2C2-Tetrafluoroethane?wprov=sfla1

 

R134a really isn't dangerous to the environment, the only reason it's restricted at all is its GWP and in the quantities we're talking about it's really neither here nor there.

 

So quit it with the traffic warden mentality already.

Edited 29 July, 20214 yr by sepulchrave

Who said R134a is dangerous? The discussion is whether Halfords STP EZ chill is really R134a (as described by Halfords webite) and how can they sell it as such considering its illegal to do so. 

 

3 hours ago, rum4mo said:

ideally the recovered gas should get sample checked while it is being recovered and diverted into a waste recovery cylinder for sending away for disposal and not into what will be a decant cylinder inside the all singing and dancing recovery/vac/charging machine.

Hint - The guy who does my car uses separate, and differently shaped and labelled, drain and recharge cylinders.

https://www.coolingpost.com/uk-news/uncertified-persons-can-buy-f-gas/

Out of date, dude:

Selling F gas or equipment - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

On 28/07/2021 at 17:45, KingTui said:

Hello,

 

A quick search online and I found this MSDS for the recharge gas. Very interesting and helpful post from Xman, I will consider this next time i need to re-gas my AC. 

 

Tui

 

I hope that you are not a Rainbow Trout!

I struggled to find anyone to sell me a 13kg R134a cylinder as a private individual EU resident, there is always someone that wants to do a deal though, mine came from Latvia I think.

 

I have no idea what is in it but it cools and has topped up partially charged R134a systems which then cooled, I'm looking for a Rainbow Trout to use as a Guinea Pig!

 

If you look into the sky Southwards on the 51st parallel & see a hole in the ozone layer its my one!

 

What is GWP please Sepulchrave?

Global Warming Potential

I think this loophole is probably related to the small amount of actual virgin R134a in the cylinder, anything under 120ml is classed as a limited quantity and is probably exempt.

 

When I said dangerous, I meant dangerous to the environment and have therefore edited my response to avoid misunderstandings from spitting literalists.

The canisters that I used to buy from China were illegal even then but of course that never stopped anything, then someone must have toughened up as the listings were taken down as quick as they went up, they started calling them all sorts of inventive names like "AC deodoriser" or "AC leak tester" all but one order failed to arrive.

 

These were the sealed cans without a valve like the old Camping Gaz cartridges where the valve screwed on and punctured a hole in the can, when it would yield no more and you unscrewed the valve to fit another can the 20% or more remaining was simply vented to my personal hole in the ozone layer.

 

I think the Halfrauds deposit scheme is a good idea and should stop mots if not all negiligen discharges but they hadn't reckoned on people like the OP, I am still chuckling at the question he asked, "should I let all the gas out before returning the can for my deposit?"

I looked up GWP and found it quite enlightening

 

Global Warming Potential of gases are referenced to CO2 which is defined as having GWP of 1

 

Gas                              GWP

CO2                                   1

R600a Iso Butane           3

R1234yf                            4

Methane                        28

R134a                        1300

R12 (old Freon)        10200

 

 

So releasing 500g of R134a into the atmosphere is equivalent to releasing 650kg of CO2. For those old fridges and vehicles (pre 1994) that had R12 - a typical American car of that era had over 1kg, that released is equivalent to over 10 tonnes of CO2

 

Interestingly Mercedes Benz and VAG have developed systems using CO2 currently only on their top end models such as S class and E class. I wonder how expensive that gas is to refill?

 

7 minutes ago, xman said:

using CO2 currently only on their top end models such as S class and E class. I wonder how expensive that gas is to refill?

Just DIY it with a fire extinguisher, innit. 

On 29/07/2021 at 20:37, KenONeill said:

Hint - The guy who does my car uses separate, and differently shaped and labelled, drain and recharge cylinders.

 

Sounds like he only ever charges from a trade virgin gas cylinder and gets supplied with industry standard (for that gas type/pressure) waste recovery cylinders which tend to built like brick toilets as they will have a long and tough life as well as needing properly cleaned out and vac'd down ready for any other gas within that pressure range being loaded back into them by the next user.

 

A smart cookie, playing safe, maybe even replacing the filter in his recovery unit after every recovery - happy customers maybe even.

I have worked out that if I stop breathing for 5 years I will have a CO2 credit big enough to regas my home aircon system!

 

I am practicing my apnée but fall a little short at present.

 

My reaction to that chart, - 'kin ell!!!!

Back in the sixties, in an aircraft factory, we'd drop a bearing into a bucket of freon to shrink it so that we'd get a good interference fit.

7 minutes ago, totoro said:

Back in the sixties, in an aircraft factory, we'd drop a bearing into a bucket of freon to shrink it so that we'd get a good interference fit.

 

Even in the 70's nothing beat a beaker filled with Freon to clean things up, it used to be one of our preferred cleaning agents, whoops. Even in ultrasonic baths - it used to disappear quite quickly,  strange eh!

 

Latterly  I handled maybe a ton of R245fa a year, I'm not sure that was listed as being toxic back then, we knew it was maybe addictive though, not good when it was so difficult to minimise leakage - zero ozone depleting figures though, but a significant GWP figure. Anyway, no gain without pain!

Edited 30 July, 20214 yr by rum4mo
dropped tons to a ton!

10 hours ago, rum4mo said:

A smart cookie, playing safe, maybe even replacing the filter in his recovery unit after every recovery - happy customers maybe even.

Yes, and about half the quoted Halfrauds price for the job as well.

11 hours ago, rum4mo said:

 

Even in the 70's nothing beat a beaker filled with Freon to clean things up, it used to be one of our preferred cleaning agents, whoops. Even in ultrasonic baths - it used to disappear quite quickly,  strange eh!

 

Latterly  I handled maybe a ton of R245fa a year, I'm not sure that was listed as being toxic back then, we knew it was maybe addictive though, not good when it was so difficult to minimise leakage - zero ozone depleting figures though, but a significant GWP figure. Anyway, no gain without pain!

 

For information, R245fa GWP = 1030