Crush washer size? Doing oil/oil filter change..

[CReese123]

Hi, does anyone know the crush washer size for the oil sump plug on the Fabia MK3? Intend to do an oil/oil filter change but replace the crush washer at the same time. Not comfortable reusing the washers. 

[AGFalco]

Don't think it has one.

 

Thanks, AG Falco

[CReese123]

Just now, AGFalco said:

Don't think it has one.

 

Thanks, AG Falco

Really? I assumed you'd need one to be on the safe side and prevent leakage?

[AGFalco]

My car has had 6 services and there is no oil leaks.

 

The last three services I did and I don't remember a crush washer. 🤔

 

Thanks, AG Falco

[CReese123]

10 minutes ago, AGFalco said:

My car has had 6 services and there is no oil leaks.

 

The last three services I did and I don't remember a crush washer. 🤔

 

Thanks, AG Falco

Thanks buddy. Not done an oil change yet on the Fabia. So just a case of oil and filter change, reuse the old sump and whatever is attached? 

[AGFalco]

Sump plug is 19 mm bolt so if washer is required 14 mm internal diameter and 22 mm outside diameter.

 

Thanks, AG Falco

[CReese123]

1 hour ago, AGFalco said:

Sump plug is 19 mm bolt so if washer is required 14 mm internal diameter and 22 mm outside diameter.

 

Thanks, AG Falco

Thank you for this I appreciate it.

Just visually inspected and noticed as you say no copper crush washer. However there is an aluminium looking (shiny) flat surfaced thick ring around the sump plug, sat between the sump and pan. Is this what you meant? I find it odd there's no crush washer mind. I struggle to see how flat surfaced rings truly act as sealants. 

[HeavyMetalRich]

Sump plug is the same as the one discussed in this thread.

 

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/498443-skoda-fabia-sump-plug/

[rum4mo]

Depends on the engine series, the 1.2TSI 16V both have a folded steel crush washer seal on the sump plug, I tend to buy them in in "4" 2 year's worth for my 2011 S4 and wife's 2015 Polo 1.2TSI - I've only ever bought from VW Group sources.

 

Edit:-  Washer  N 0138157 (14 X 20)  Torque 30Nm    

Edited 23 October, 2021 by rum4mo

[nta16]

It might depend on what engine you have but if it's the same as my wife's like many things VAG and motor trade it all gets too complicated, I can explain what I mean if you want but for now I'll just say what I'd do if it were my car (and takes the same fittings as my wife's Fabia hatch which I think they all seem to but don't know for sure).

 

I'd buy a new good quality sump bolt and a separate removable sealing washer, then in future I have the choice to just replace the sealing washer, which I know the part number, type and size or replace both screw and washer if I want/need.

 

I'm pretty sure any decent type of sealing washer ID 14mm and OD 20-22mm would do the job.

 

See photos below for part numbers and type of fittings, on some invoices from the Dealership there's a K at the start of the part numbers.

 

Unless before you has damaged the threads, or you do, then in my experience of even leaky old cars you don't get leaks from the sump drain area but of course gravity being what it is it can be that oil is around that area simply because it's at a low point or edge so some think there might be a leak there.

 

Edited 23 October, 2021 by nta16

[CReese123]

21 minutes ago, nta16 said:

It might depend on what engine you have but if it's the same as my wife's like many things VAG and motor trade it all gets too complicated, I can explain what I mean if you want but for now I'll just say what I'd do if it were my car (and takes the same fittings as my wife's Fabia hatch which I think they all seem to but don't know for sure).

 

I'd buy a new good quality sump bolt and a separate removable sealing washer, then in future I have the choice to just replace the sealing washer, which I know the part number, type and size or replace both screw and washer if I want/need.

 

I'm pretty sure any decent type of sealing washer ID 14mm and OD 20-22mm would do the job.

 

See photos below for part numbers and type of fittings, on some invoices from the Dealership there's a K at the start of the part numbers.

 

Unless before you has damaged the threads, or you do, then in my experience of even leaky old cars you don't get leaks from the sump drain area but of course gravity being what it is it can be that oil is around that area simply because it's at a low point or edge so some think there might be a leak there.

 

I suspect ever so slight seepage and from experience sorting out the misses' car I'm assuming the washer has been reused instead of replaced by the previous owner. 

[CReese123]

21 minutes ago, nta16 said:

It might depend on what engine you have but if it's the same as my wife's like many things VAG and motor trade it all gets too complicated, I can explain what I mean if you want but for now I'll just say what I'd do if it were my car (and takes the same fittings as my wife's Fabia hatch which I think they all seem to but don't know for sure).

 

I'd buy a new good quality sump bolt and a separate removable sealing washer, then in future I have the choice to just replace the sealing washer, which I know the part number, type and size or replace both screw and washer if I want/need.

 

I'm pretty sure any decent type of sealing washer ID 14mm and OD 20-22mm would do the job.

 

See photos below for part numbers and type of fittings, on some invoices from the Dealership there's a K at the start of the part numbers.

 

Unless before you has damaged the threads, or you do, then in my experience of even leaky old cars you don't get leaks from the sump drain area but of course gravity being what it is it can be that oil is around that area simply because it's at a low point or edge so some think there might be a leak there.

 

I also found a copper crushable washer from Euro Carparts for less than £0.80, inner diameter 14mm and outer diameter 20mm. I did try to find 22mm outer diameter but I'm hoping 20mm should do the job. I've never been fussed on the flat style washers. I've always preferred the round crushable ones (like shown in this pic) that shape themselves with tightening. 

[nta16]

27 minutes ago, CReese123 said:

I suspect ever so slight seepage and from experience sorting out the misses' car I'm assuming the washer has been reused instead of replaced by the previous owner. 

 

In that case I'd definitely buy a new good quality sump bolt and a separate removable sealing washer to replace anything a poor quality PO has done and if you can borrow or have a correct size tap* I'd carefully check the thread, I always do a hot oil change left to drain as long as possible and sacrifice some warmed fresh new oil as a final small flush before refitting the plug so that'd also hopefully take care of any bits at the bottom for any reason.

 

* as far as I can tell from internet (not real life) N 0138157 is 14 x 1.5 screw thread

 

ETA: You don't have to crush too much as 30Nm is only 22 ft lbs (I know this as the Midget's wheel nuts only torque to 45 ft lbs and that only 61Nm as I have to inform anywhere that will be removing and putting a wheel back on, especially place that use a 300Nm rattle gun before their torque wrench pre-set to 120Nm.

 

[CReese123]

19 minutes ago, nta16 said:

 

In that case I'd definitely buy a new good quality sump bolt and a separate removable sealing washer to replace anything a poor quality PO has done and if you can borrow or have a correct size tap* I'd carefully check the thread, I always do a hot oil change left to drain as long as possible and sacrifice some warmed fresh new oil as a final small flush before refitting the plug so that'd also hopefully take care of any bits at the bottom for any reason.

 

* as far as I can tell from internet (not real life) N 0138157 is 14 x 1.5 screw thread

 

ETA: You don't have to crush too much as 30Nm is only 22 ft lbs (I know this as the Midget's wheel nuts only torque to 45 ft lbs and that only 61Nm as I have to inform anywhere that will be removing and putting a wheel back on, especially place that use a 300Nm rattle gun before their torque wrench pre-set to 120Nm.

 

I'll give a new washer a try. For me to call it even seepage is extreme. It definitely appears to be some build up however. Though it may be possible the previous owners or garage they used were careless to clean up after themselves and left residue. Or maybe they didn't bother leaving the oil drain properly and done the sump up with oil still dribbling out. The only reason I say this is because the oil filter had oil residue on it yet the seals all around it are bone dry (I inspected close up umpteen times). I've not changed a sump plug before. I'll inspect it but ideally like to keep the original. Fingers crossed a new washer will do the job. And I'll go from there.

Edited 23 October, 2021 by CReese123

[nta16]

Let us know how you get on.

 

I'm particularly interested as I'm considering doing a 6-month change as the car does such short journeys or putting in a really good oil and do the change myself annually, though I loathe working on our cars, don't mind so much with other peoples just ours.

 

[CReese123]

On 23/10/2021 at 22:41, nta16 said:

Let us know how you get on.

 

I'm particularly interested as I'm considering doing a 6-month change as the car does such short journeys or putting in a really good oil and do the change myself annually, though I loathe working on our cars, don't mind so much with other peoples just ours.

 

The existing washer is built into the nut and cannot be removed from above the bolt thread. Interestingly the bolt thread is bigger than the washer and that's why it cannot be removed.

 

So I placed a copper crush washer over the washer that's built into the nut and it appears to have done the job. No more seepage! Just means the copper crush washer will undoubtedly need replacing each oil change but for a washer that costs pennies I am not complaining. I also never reuse washers given past experience anyhow.

 

PS. I inspected the bolt and thread before hand; it's flawless. 

Edited 25 October, 2021 by CReese123

[nta16]

1 hour ago, CReese123 said:

The existing washer is built into the nut and cannot be removed from above the bolt thread. Interestingly the bolt thread is bigger than the washer and that's why it cannot be removed.

 

So I placed a copper crush washer over the washer that's built into the nut and it appears to have done the job. No more seepage! Just means the copper crush washer will undoubtedly need replacing each oil change but for a washer that costs pennies I am not complaining. I also never reuse washers given past experience anyhow.

 

PS. I inspected the bolt and thread before hand; it's flawless. 

Edited 1 hour ago by CReese123

Now you're dragging out of me what I think is the complications of the motor trade and VAG in this particular case, I didn't want to throw it in before to avoid confusion.

 

I'm going to give VAG and/or the last garage that serviced your car some leeway and not give you fully what I think/speculate.

 

You will see I cropped the photo I put up previously to avoid showing the plug with non-detachable (unless you really want to) washer (N90813202), they come as a pair so you replace the plug/bolt with it's washer each time rather than the two separate parts of bolt/plug (N90288901) and washer (N0138157) where you could replace the washer only.

 

Some may show dismay at two washers fitted but if it doesn't leak before the next service it's worked.

 

Edited 25 October, 2021 by nta16

[CReese123]

10 hours ago, nta16 said:

Now you're dragging out of me what I think is the complications of the motor trade and VAG in this particular case, I didn't want to throw it in before to avoid confusion.

 

I'm going to give VAG and/or the last garage that serviced your car some leeway and not give you fully what I think/speculate.

 

You will see I cropped the photo I put up previously to avoid showing the plug with non-detachable (unless you really want to) washer (N90813202), they come as a pair so you replace the plug/bolt with it's washer each time rather than the two separate parts of bolt/plug (N90288901) and washer (N0138157) where you could replace the washer only.

 

Some may show dismay at two washers fitted but if it doesn't leak before the next service it's worked.

 

Pretty much what you say. The top image is the design of the bolt on my vehicle. I dislike using two washers but it certainly has worked. So for reference it's the top bolt and the lower crush washer in the image you've attached. 

 

I let the engine run for 10 mins before doing the oil change and discovered the seepage. I've had a long drive since and checked the sump plug for seepage on two seperate occasions. It's definitely held up and done the job which is the main thing. 

Edited 26 October, 2021 by CReese123

[nta16]

30 minutes ago, CReese123 said:

So for reference it's the top bolt and the lower crush washer in the image you've attached. 

No, the top bolt and its washer (N90813202) are a pair, they are together (like Ant & Dec).

 

This can be changed to the bolt (N90288901) and a separate washer (N0138157 in this case) where if wanted you could reuse the bolt and just replace the washer.  I hope that makes sense.

 

[rum4mo]

There does seem to have been some at least of the 1.2TSI 16V engines, maybe only the later ones, were sent out of the engine plant with the older version of "bolt+washer" combo instead of the bolt and a separate rolled steel crush washer, my wife's 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI 16V certainly came new with the sump bolt and separate washer version.

 

I always thought the change to separate crush washer would have been with the plan to avoid millions of drain plugs getting dumped into landfill, from what I remember, the separate crush washer costs slightly more than than the "bolt+washer" combo when buying from VW Group parts departments.

[nta16]

By the look of the WSM, altho' it isn't that clear to me so I might have it wrong, it seems you swap the bolt c/w washer for bolt with separate washer and then just change the washer next time.

 

I did wonder if the bolt c/w washer was perhaps softer material so as to be less likely to damage the thread on the sump pan but the separate plug is listed as steel, and sometimes shown with flat copper washer.  You can also buy copper crush washers and I'd imagine in the correct size.  Flat washers used to seal fine.  If you go to a place that sells farm stuff and/or hydraulics you can find all sorts of sealing washer that  I'm sure would work fine.

 

Edited 26 October, 2021 by nta16

[rum4mo]

As I had only ever seen and touched the version that has the captive washer, its material always seemed as hard as ----- and the version with the softish rolled steel washer would end up softer against the sump pan, but, both cars I have currently, have steel sump bases and have these maybe softer sealing washers, my previous two cars that used the bolt cw washer, had soft alloy sumps and these hard flat solid washers.

 

All good stuff, what tended to annoy me while I was using these drain plug with captive washer, and buying from VW Group outlets, was the need to dress the threads of the plugs to keep my alloy sumps happy, it looked like tons/tonnes of these plugs were getting dumped together and handled roughly at some stage in their life!

Edited 26 October, 2021 by rum4mo
spelling!!!

[nta16]

That seems to be the way now with nuts and 'bolts'.  I always run a nut or bolt against three samples of the other threading by fingertips, turning each nut for both sides so six runs against nut or bolt.  Any that snag I put aside for non-critical use, don't get many but a few I might even bin .  My problem is all my stock is just about UNF with a smattering of a few very small nuts and 'bolts' of various threads including metric and I don't have any M14 nuts to run against, I'll have to buy some when I restock my UNFs..

 

It was only a few years ago I discovered there's three different metric threads, no wonder my imperial spanner was a snug fit on the nut, I just thought it was the surface rust left after wire brushing.

 

VAG dealers probably have thousands of stock of the bolt/washer (N90813202) and using them up on service and repair work, probably quicker to fit than fitting just a washer.  The N90813202 plug/washer is listed on the service invoices each time, I've no idea what is actually used but I did notice the one time I was under the engine that the sump plug looked to be new and not the dark metal type IIRC.

 

I've just ordered two (x5) boxes of these, should last me at least 5 years, perhaps 10, or depends if I also have full stock of can-be-arsed or enough money to pay someone else to do the work as has been the case so far. - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174613262625

 

[nta16]

10 drain plugs have arrived (2 times, x5) and they look to be fine, I've no need of fitting yet so can't confirm that but the one I opened to inspect looks good.

 

Just over £13 for ten (inc. P&P) so about £1.30 each - £6.75 for one lot, £6.55 each for two and less for three and four-plus.

 

I know it's wasteful but buying a small quantity of decent loose copper washers is a bit of a pain now.

 

I'm no more than a satisfied customer. - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174613262625

 

Edited 30 October, 2021 by nta16