This might well be a help to many wanting to move to driving an EV.

 

 

 

Boost? More like trickle charge. 3.5kW from a 100+ bhp diesel engine...... that's like idle consumption. When I saw the type 2 plug, was expecting 7-11 kW at very least.

 

"cost of petrol around 10k miles is around £1500."

Is that right? 15p per mile sounds high? I was estimating 10p/mile based on my 53mpg diesel averaged over last 4 years.

Basing the the UK Average petrol car fuel use on 10 miles per litre so 45 MPG might even be too high,  222 Gallons a year over 10,000 miles.

 (1,100 litres @ 135 pence = £1,485)

Even 40 mpg average might even be high for those that only average 27 miles per day.   

 

 

Those that can get 53 mpg from a tank fill might just as well stick using their ICE unless they are using cheap or free electricity when getting an EV IMO. 

Edited 20 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

3 hours ago, roottoot said:

This might well be a help to many wanting to move to driving an EV.

 

 

 

 

• Always like the RAC but a few little comments.  I would be ashamed to need a charge from them but I suppose it might happen with some bad luck on faulty public chargers etc.
• 3.6 Kw is a bit girlie for a rescue.
• Octopus is 17% cheaper than RAC lecky.
• What I would hope rescue service woud use are these but they are only just starting to come out in the UK......
•   

 

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Boost? More like trickle charge. 3.5kW from a 100+ bhp diesel engine...... that's like idle consumption. When I saw the type 2 plug, was expecting 7-11 kW at very least.

 

"cost of petrol around 10k miles is around £1500."

Is that right? 15p per mile sounds high? I was estimating 10p/mile based on my 53mpg diesel averaged over last 4 years.

 

Even an efficient diesel will be pushed to hit 11p a miles under the current price of diesel ie as my Fabia 3 1.4 90 hp is doing with its 62 mpg but on a run it would get under 10p a litre but I find I can only get that 70 to 80 mpg on runs of 50 miles or over when one can overcome that first 5 mile leg that the diesel is in reality on doing 40 mpg or so ie until it gets up to temperature and gets worse as the temperature drops as well as the winter fuels anti coagulant additive which lowers calorific value.  Always think that one should add in the 5 litres of engine oil that one has to change every 10k or so as well that adds a few tens of pence per mile as it seems the principal cost of a minor A service.

 

Max is in the UK and Pro due here shortly.  Could work as Home backup, part of solar equipment and take away out on journeys. fast recharge too.

 

 

Edited 20 November, 20214 yr by lol-lol

@lol-lolReally does the winter spec diesel from mid October to April in the UK which is to inhibit waxing reducing the MPG of diesels?

As in up to now that people have been using it if they filled up at a filling station since the start of November and before it now is away to get colder!

 

I think not,

but then those that monitor fuel use like Transport / Fleet Managers or just individuals will know. 

9 minutes ago, roottoot said:

@lol-lolReally does the winter spec diesel from mid October to April in the UK which is to inhibit waxing reducing the MPG of diesels?

As in up to now that people have been using it if they filled up at a filling station since the start of November and before it now is away to get colder!

 

I think not,

but then those that monitor fuel use like Transport / Fleet Managers or just individuals will know. 

 

It is probably so small as to be less of a factor than wind direction etc.  The additive is only 0.1% of the volume of the winter diesel so even if it had virtually no calorific value it might only effect ones fuel consumption by about 0.1 mpg or less.  More important to get tyre pressures right, a clean air filter and the other usually fuel efficient measures.

Pro...

 

 

@lol-lolThe nice  fresh denser oxygen going through into the air intake and the less traction from the slightly cooler road surface in the past weeks since people got winter grade diesel will maybe have improved their efficiency / economy. 

That is if it has been cooler where they are driving. 

Edited 20 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

7 minutes ago, roottoot said:

@lol-lolThe nice clean fresh oxygen going through the air intake and the less traction from the slightly cooler roads in the past weeks since people got winter grade diesel will maybe have improved their efficiency / economy. 

That is if it has been cooler where they are driving. 

 

Bit of snow tomorrow for you......

 

8 minutes ago, roottoot said:

@lol-lolThe nice  fresh denser oxygen going through into the air intake and the less traction from the slightly cooler road surface in the past weeks since people got winter grade diesel will maybe have improved their efficiency / economy. 

That is if it has been cooler where they are driving. 

 

Remember there is less and less oxygen in the air as ICE cars use it up and put more CO2 in to the air..

Less oxygen in the air in winter due to less photosynthesis adding O2 to the air mix also.

 

Re the question of pence per mile for a diesel. It very much depends on which car you compare. My previous Karoq 2.0 4x4 averaged 45.3 for the 3 years 37k miles I had it,  so basically 10 miles per litre. Yesterday I noticed the average price of diesel is £1.50 a litre! 15p a mile in my old car. So I don't think the RAC figure is wildly out.

 

Even on my peak tariff of 23p per kWh my ID.4 gave 6.7p per mile yesterday over 180 mixed miles. (3.4 miles per kWh) I'm off to Aldi / Tesco later to get some free electrons to lower that figure further. 

Just worked mine out and based on cost per litre of last fill and average mpg i'm just under 11.9 ppm...

Just worked mine out and based on cost per litre of last fill and average mpg i'm just under 11.9 ppm...

 

That average mpg includes lots of short journeys so i'd expect to better it with some longer journeys thrown in.  Not bad for something that cost a third of a Zoe when purchased with just a few hundred miles on the clock after sitting a showroom for a while...

42 or so years ago I was tooling around in a Triumph Stag getting 16mpg and petrol costing £1.60 a litre.

 

Its taken 4 decades to get back to 10p per mile albeit overtaken in recent months.

 

I fell on hard times then when my workshop burnt down and I could not earn my second living, my apprentice wages barely covered my rent, so I had to make economies, a pint of beer and a packet of fags also cost £1.60 so that was when I became an ex smoker.

 

TPF&T insurance on the Snag cost £120 and I still pay less than that now.

 

What are the relative costs of petrol, beer and cigarettes today?  I have since given up alcohol so don't know the price of beer, whenever I hear the price of tobacco I nearly fall over!

23 minutes ago, J.R. said:

42 or so years ago I was tooling around in a Triumph Stag getting 16mpg and petrol costing £1.60 a litre.

 

When I was a young petrol pump attendant (weekend job) it was only about 35p/gallon in the early 1970s if I remember correctly. It went up dramaticaly during the 1970s due to the Middle East petrol crisis (I still have the petrol coupons for my moped).

Edited 21 November, 20214 yr by Liger1956

42 minutes ago, J.R. said:

42 or so years ago I was tooling around in a Triumph Stag getting 16mpg and petrol costing £1.60 a litre.

Petrol was nowhere near £1.60 a litre in the 1980s. About 35p a litre.....

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1996/dec/11/fuel-prices

 

OT.

I earned my money in the early 70's to buy my first moped and first cars while still at school and working in a Shell Filling Station.

Redex was still popular then and it was 5 pence a shot.

The agency drivers filling their lorries or cars with Diesel or Petrol got a receipt with more gallons on it than went in the vehicle.

They got a 'Cash in hand' amount, the boss got the fuel not sold and paid for it and i got a nice amount of pocket money and free petrol and 2 stroke oil. 

 

Best was when the Gas was being changed from Coal Gas to Natural Gas in our area the Vans were fueled where i worked.

They must have looked to the Fleet Managers as having terrible fuel consumption.

Some might have as the 'Workers' decided who would work each day and who went on the skive by going fishing to the pictures or whatever.

Those vehicle might be doing more miles in the day than those with the workers doing the Gas Conversions. 

 

https://www.retrowow.co.uk/social_history/70s/how_much_did_things_cost.html

 

 

 

Edited 21 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

Just worked mine out and based on cost per litre of last fill and average mpg i'm just under 11.9 ppm...

 

That average mpg includes lots of short journeys so i'd expect to better it with some longer journeys thrown in.  Not bad for something that cost a third of a Zoe when purchased with just a few hundred miles on the clock after sitting a showroom for a while...

 

But one does not "purchase" the Zoe and certainly not pay £34k as there is so much other money thrown at the deal by Government, the Dealer and Renault which has £2.5k, £5, and £1k respectively and nice to get £1k more for the Octy than a thought I was going to get because of the nutty price of second hand cars. All that off the RRP price which went in to calculation, I recall the Renault finance deal is less than 4% APR, which is currently less than either the CPI and RPI rates so that the monthly PCP payment worked out at £284 and my only risk is that the car will still be worth £13k in 4 years with 24k miles on it by which time it will be my secondary car probably with a Megane EV as my main car.

 

Fuel saving is around £100 a month compared to buying a petrol and diesel, still buying one tankful of petrol and one tankful of diesel for the occasional really long trip.  Just need my company to trade the fuel card for an electricity card but the issue is which network. Will probably be GRIDSERVE.   

 

But always the principal reason is to stop producing CO2, even if it did cost be a few tenners a year.   Each gallon of fuel produces about 10 kgs of C02, 10 Kgs !!!!!

https://www.carbonindependent.org/17.html

Time is running out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2IuJPh6h_A

Edited 21 November, 20214 yr by lol-lol

38 minutes ago, roottoot said:

OT.

I earned my money in the early 70's to buy my first moped and first cars while still at school and working in a Shell Filling Station.

Redex was still popular then and it was 5 pence a shot.

The agency drivers filling their lorries or cars with Diesel or Petrol got a receipt with more gallons on it than went in the vehicle.

They got a 'Cash in hand' amount, the boss got the fuel not sold and paid for it and i got a nice amount of pocket money and free petrol and 2 stroke oil. 

Best was when the Gas was being changed from Coal Gas to Natural Gas in our area the Vans were fueled where i worked.

They must have looked to the Fleet Managers as having terrible fuel consumption.

Some might have as the 'Workers' decided who would work each day and who went on the skive by going fishing to the pictures or whatever.

Those vehicle might be doing more miles in the day than those with the workers doing the Gas Conversions. 

https://www.retrowow.co.uk/social_history/70s/how_much_did_things_cost.html

 

Friend of mine in Worcester got hell from his bosses as he did not get the fuel consumption published for his work Vauxhall Insignia, turned quite nasty.

 

Mileage claims with HMRC are quite a grey area and hence open to some exploitation in respect to company mileage claims.  Does not use the car's odometer which will often overread by about 5%, which also affects the car's computer readout of what it says one is doing in MPG ?  Or does one use Googlemaps or a Routeplanner to report the mileage.  Is it OK to divert off every hour or two and do a mile or two extra to stop for a comfort break ?  How about, here is a doozy, do a journey that is 55 miles by more direct A road and 75 miles by motorway and claim for the 75 miles as it was your choice to go the slower A road route using your personal time ?  

 

UK governments have kept the mileage rate at 45p fore the first 10k and 25p after than for about 3 decades now and hence there are few cars, actually only 6 according to Autoexpress than do...   https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars-vans/62858/cheapest-cars-run-2021

 

29 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

But one does not "purchase" the Zoe and certainly not pay £34k as there is so much other money thrown at the deal by Government, the Dealer and Renault which has £2.5k, £5, and £1k respectively and nice to get £1k more for the Octy than a thought I was going to get because of the nutty price of second hand cars. All that off the RRP price which went in to calculation, I recall the Renault finance deal is less than 4% APR, which is currently less than either the CPI and RPI rates so that the monthly PCP payment worked out at £284 and my only risk is that the car will still be worth £13k in 4 years with 24k miles on it by which time it will be my secondary car probably with a Megane EV as my main car.

 

Fuel saving is around £100 a month compared to buying a petrol and diesel, still buying one tankful of petrol and one tankful of diesel for the occasional really long trip.  Just need my company to trade the fuel card for an electricity card but the issue is which network. Will probably be GRIDSERVE.   

 

But always the principal reason is to stop producing CO2, even if it did cost be a few tenners a year.   Each gallon of fuel produces about 10 kgs of C02, 10 Kgs !!!!!

https://www.carbonindependent.org/17.html

Time is running out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2IuJPh6h_A

 

but that's a comparison of apples with oranges if you compare renting a Zoe with outright purchase of another car - it's simply invalid.  The last few cars I've kept for around 12 years which would make the cost per year of the swift about £800, so  less than £70 per month with only servicing and fuel on top.  Even at 10,000 miles per year fuel works out at about £99 per month and servicing at £25 per month.  Total 194 per month - significantly less even without the cost of your electricity.  Add that in at a cheap 6p per mile and your Zoe costs about £334 per month, a difference of £140 - not far off double?

 

Again not a strictly valid comparison but gives you an idea of how many people us and buy (as opposed to 'rent' cars.

44 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

but that's a comparison of apples with oranges if you compare renting a Zoe with outright purchase of another car - it's simply invalid.  The last few cars I've kept for around 12 years which would make the cost per year of the swift about £800, so  less than £70 per month with only servicing and fuel on top.  Even at 10,000 miles per year fuel works out at about £99 per month and servicing at £25 per month.  Total 194 per month - significantly less even without the cost of your electricity.  Add that in at a cheap 6p per mile and your Zoe costs about £334 per month, a difference of £140 - not far off double?

 

Again not a strictly valid comparison but gives you an idea of how many people us and buy (as opposed to 'rent' cars.

 

I always buy the car after the PCP time and the reason why 90% of cars obtained are "leased" via PCP in the initial phase is to avoid the massive VAT hit when one buys.

Every buy after PCP period I have done ends up with me having a car that is valued at a grand or two more than the balloon payment I have made.

It can go wrong if one bought a diesel and because diesels have been worth so much less one might have lost out but even that has now not valid as I imagine almost any decent smallish car, diesel or petrol, in worth more than it was a year or two ago but I have certainly not done badly out of PCP in that whilst I may have paid £260 in the case of the Octy or £284 in the case of the Zoe I will be amazed if it eventually works out closer to £250 pm as I end up with a car with substantial equity above the balloon price.

 

As to electricity/energy for fuel it is 1p a mile as the mixture of home electricity at 5p per Kwh, and I am getting 4 miles per kWh even when tanking it around currently, and then the occasional free half a battery of electricity at offices/warehouses I visit work out at 1p a mile and therefore £5 a month for motive power.  I gather servicing costs work out about £8 a month for EVs as there is no oil, oil filter, plug washer, air filter and time to do only the pollen filter and checks to do ie cost are between a third and a half of ICE so whole mot under £300 I reckon for a high spec car with numerous safety features like EBA, lane departure and assist, road sign recognition, blind spot warning etc etc.

 

Very happy with it as a machine and it environmental credentials which I struggle to put a price on but I would be happy to pay £50 or £100 more not to be burning fossil fuel but overall I feel it is more like cost neutral over the Octy though I might miss the space one day if I want to help somebody move stuff but then I might just have to hire a van.   

 

5 hours ago, Luckypants said:

Petrol was nowhere near £1.60 a litre in the 1980s. About 35p a litre.....

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1996/dec/11/fuel-prices

 

My mistake, I meant £1.60 per gallon, 16 mpg = 10p per mile.

7 minutes ago, J.R. said:

My mistake, I meant £1.60 per gallon, 16 mpg = 10p per mile.

 

Two shillings.  In the eighties bought a flat for £23k.

 

The time of real fun with fuel was the early 70s and the Arab petrol crisis. So we are up with the all time expensive of fuel ie 150 a litre.

 

In the US they introduced the double nickel ie 55 mph speed limit to control supplies so they did not run out completely.

 

https://rdrf.org.uk/2010/05/08/a-very-moderate-suggestion-part-2-increase-the-price-of-petrol/

 

Average income using the Average Earnings Index (figures go back to 1963):

PETROL PRICES	Cost per litre (pence)	AVERAGE EARNINGS INDEX (2000 IS 100)	Price now, factoring in average earnings, based on 2010 price
1960	5.18	c.3 (1963=3.9)	235
1970	7.15	6.5	150
1980	26.39	27.4	131
1990	40.92	63.9	87
2000	80.84	100	110
2010	120	136.4	120