9 hours ago, Gaz said:

 

An interesting perspective:

 

Gaz

 

Obviously, by someone who is unable to provide a credible source...... All I am seeing is a lot of ranting based on one man's perspective. Unlike the article I posted, the video contained: no scientific study referenced, not referencing any sources of his information.

 

@11:05, he ranted about EV trucks needing to charge 12 hours, not understanding EV's have rapid charging.

 

@15:10, he goes on a rant on EV servicing cost without research. EV's should always be cheaper to service. From my experience, servicing plus fixing cost of a many-years old car will be as much as standard servicing of regular fossil car at main dealer. Over 3 years it costed me £690 average per year for a 9-11 yr Mercedes C coupe. Over 5 years it costed me £320 average per year for my 4-9 years old Skoda Octavia, that that was on a shoe-string 2yr service interval at cheap chain tyre place.

 

The only credible point is the debunk article's author, where he digs out the funding organisations behind the scene. But I see major benefits with organisations supporting tackling climate change and scientific data driven fact check websites.

 

Mr Atkinson was promoting inaction, keep waiting for the next miracle technology. This is unacceptable from climate emergency point of view.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/20/ipcc-climate-crisis-report-delivers-final-warning-on-15c

BBC 1 Panorama tonight.  Electric cars: Is it time to buy? 

41 minutes ago, toot said:

BBC 1 Panorama tonight.  Electric cars: Is it time to buy? 

 

 

Ford don't seem to think so, at least not a battery one. Although I feel a hydrogen car (using a cell) is still an EV. the title of the video is a bit misleading, but the CEO does have serious doubts about battery EVs. There's quite a bit online where he states about his concerns of Ford carrying on down the battery route ie infrastructure, Range, mining and minerals used etc. I'm quite excited by this news as I feel I can get behind Hydrogen cars  (obviously many hurdles to overcome with them still), but Rolls Royce too are looking at Hydrogen fuel cells (but not hydrogen I.C.E.), as are many others in this growing area of potential alternative power 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, toot said:

BBC 1 Panorama tonight.  Electric cars: Is it time to buy? 

This thread sums it up nicely:

https://www.speakev.com/threads/panorama-bbc-right-now-20-00-12-06-new-hatchet-job-or-progressive-discussion.178097/

It sums up how many are with getting an EV and no prep, or none before trips.   The first charger used are a PITA when the things reactions are slow and the buttons not clearly marked. There are a few I use that work ok, the original at Stirling Park and Ride is just so unreliable and the single one in Tomintoul just not worth trusting to be working..

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

This thread sums it up nicely:

https://www.speakev.com/threads/panorama-bbc-right-now-20-00-12-06-new-hatchet-job-or-progressive-discussion.178097/

 

Face palm.

 

1. I know the Cotswolds, I drive my Zoe EV across there many times going from Worcester to Heathrow and back again.  Trying to charge at Morton in the Marsh, unbelievable, one is 19 miles from a hundred rapid chargers in Banbury.  Point One.
2. Point two.  it costs me about £4 ot charge my 52 kwh Zoe, not £20, and the Zoe has one of the biggest batteries for a B segment car, many B segment EVs will only take £3 or less of home charge to fill it up ie like a Mini EV.
3. There are over 70,000 public EV charge points not 40 odd thousands.

 

I was not taking notes but to send a complete novice out who does not even think their way through issues ie what chargers need an app and which use contactless is basic stuff.  Using ZAP MAP, or ABRP or the Google maps in may of our cars like I have in the Zoe.  A VW was not the best choice, better to choice a marque that has been doing EVs for longer ie Nissan, Renault, TESLA and someone who has done at least a few minutes thinking about the different technology.  SO much missed.  AllStar, Zap and Octopus have RFID cards combined that cover numerous chargers so you do not need a App and other major networks, like Instavolt but 41% of charger accept contactless payment cards, apps can give you a discount which is why I would use if I ever use a public charger, 13,000 miles and counting using home, free work, free client or free public/restaurant chargers.

As with life, using a bit of research, bit of planning pays back several fold over on acquiring and running an EV over the tax fleecing that is the owning of an ICE car ie not getting government assistance,  if one is fortunate to have access to salary sacrifice, and in running an EV using off peak home electricity and those occasional free charging places too rather than being hit by that considerable Excise tax of 53p a litre and 20% VAT rather than 5% for home lecky . 

 

Fortes fortuna iuvat.

Fortuna Eruditis Favet 

 

 

Edited 12 June, 20232 yr by lol-lol

Came across this article. I think it's quite a balanced view of current status of EV and both sides of the arguments: 

 

https://www.nationalworld.com/opinion/rabid-refuseniks-and-smug-evangelists-do-little-to-help-the-debate-around-ev-charging-4184653

On 08/06/2023 at 22:13, Luckypants said:

Unable to get a smart meter is one very common reason. 

 

I don't think being unable to get a smart meter is "very" common but I do know that it can happen. 

On 12/06/2023 at 20:40, Lady Elanore said:

 

 

Ford don't seem to think so, at least not a battery one. Although I feel a hydrogen car (using a cell) is still an EV. the title of the video is a bit misleading, but the CEO does have serious doubts about battery EVs. There's quite a bit online where he states about his concerns of Ford carrying on down the battery route ie infrastructure, Range, mining and minerals used etc. I'm quite excited by this news as I feel I can get behind Hydrogen cars  (obviously many hurdles to overcome with them still), but Rolls Royce too are looking at Hydrogen fuel cells (but not hydrogen I.C.E.), as are many others in this growing area of potential alternative power 

 

 

 

 

hydrogen will never be as efficient. Hydrogen is produced by burning fossil fuels. You can do it using renewables but you lose a lot of energy in the process of converting electricity into hydrogen and then using the hydrohen to produce electricity to power the vehicle. Rather than losing all of that energy in the process, it's much more efficient to jist take the renewable energy and power the wheels with it. The fficiency levels of an EV are staggeringcompared with hydrogen and ICE vehicles. As for Ford's concerns about using minerals it never seemed to bother them when using vast amounts of cobalt as part of the refining process for ICE vehicles. I thonk it is more to do with wanting to sweat the existing assets and protect their investment in petrol and diesel

 

17 minutes ago, domhnall said:

As for Ford's concerns about using minerals it never seemed to bother them when using vast amounts of cobalt as part of the refining process for ICE vehicles.

 

Would you care to explain that or did you mean in the refining of petrochemicals and fuels?

 

If so that is hardly Fords concern and as for vast amounts, it doesn't even register compared to the consumption of the EV battery industry.

 

https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/about-cobalt/cobalt-life-cycle/cobalt-use/

20 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Would you care to explain that or did you mean in the refining of petrochemicals and fuels?

If so that is hardly Fords concern and as for vast amounts, it doesn't even register compared to the consumption of the EV battery industry.

https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/about-cobalt/cobalt-life-cycle/cobalt-use/

 

Use of Cobalt is a rapidly dying usage in EVs as there is a rapid transition to Lithium Phosphate as car batteries.  I would have thought you are more likely to be buying items with Cobalt in your mobile phone and other items using Lithium ion items camera, shaver and numerous other small electrical items but not for many current EVs and for the future EVs which are and will not be using cobalt and rare earth elements.   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#:~:text=LFP batteries are cobalt-free,of LFP battery type production.

 

 LFP batteries are cobalt-free.^[7] As of September 2022, LFP type battery market share for EVs reached 31%, and of that, 68% was from Tesla and Chinese EV maker BYD production alone.^[8] Chinese manufacturers currently hold a near monopoly of LFP battery type production.^[9] With patents having started to expire in 2022 and the increased demand for cheaper EV batteries,^[

 

 

Edited 25 June, 20232 yr by lol-lol

In the Scotland part of the UK the loss of energy turning Electricity into Hydrogen is nothing compared to not having any use or storage for the Electricity that can be generated but is not because the Wind Farms and Turbine owners are being paid not to generate electricity because the National Grid does not want it or is not connected to the location where tye electricity is being generated. 

 

5 Cities in Scotland have Local Authority vehicles, bin lorries, vans and other light commercials and busses and taxis that can be in the mix running on Hydrogen as well as ones on electric.

Then there are HGV,s & plant running around docks, forests and routes that suit being hydrogen powered and being fuelled at the places hydrogen is being produced. 

But that is already starting to happen with schemes that are introduced or in the planning and running as trials.

 

http://energylivenews.com/2022/04/05/sse-unveils-plans-for-a-green-hydrogen-at-scottish-wind-farm

http://cne-siar.gov.uk/news/2023/may-green-hydrogen

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 June, 20232 yr by toot

On 09/06/2023 at 21:02, wyx087 said:

Mr Atkinson was promoting inaction, keep waiting for the next miracle technology. This is unacceptable from climate emergency point of view.

True, if you accept there is a "climate emergency".

There is an Energy Emergency for many places & people.

Also a drinking water shortage type emergency so much more energy to desalinate sea water is required. 

11 minutes ago, toot said:

There is an Energy Emergency for many places & people.

Also a drinking water shortage type emergency so much more energy to desalinate sea water is required. 

Agreed. Sometimes water shortages can be created by big business coming in, setting up a plant and taking huge quantities of the local water.

Coca-Cola have form for this.

https://waronwant.org/news-analysis/coca-cola-drinking-world-dry

 

However intensive farming (with the assistance of corrupt politicians) can do the same.

Nut farming in California has been accused of using too much water, but they have some powerful friends so are winning the PR war on that front.

It helps that they have the support of "climate emergency" allies keen to divert attention away from the huge use of water to grow almonds and point the blame for water shortages elsewhere.

31 minutes ago, toot said:

There is an Energy Emergency for many places & people.  Also a drinking water shortage type emergency so much more energy to desalinate sea water is required. 

 

Crazy the number of places with water shortages.  North Africa and Southern Europe one can half expect but SW England and Scotland, two places where one really does not expect such occurrences.

 

Water magazine predicting gradual worsening situation.... 

https://www..watermagazine.co.uk/2023/06/07/seven-regions-in-england-will-face-severe-water-stress-by-2030-as-brits-significantly-underestimate-their-daily-water-usage/

 

 

 

The more the manufacturers of EV,s in the UK want there to be battery manufacturers in the UK the less likely there are to be any new ones any time soon.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-66012303

 

6 hours ago, domhnall said:

 

I don't think being unable to get a smart meter is "very" common but I do know that it can happen. 

Large swathes of rural UK areas have jo coverage for smart meters. Usually because of no O2 coverage but plenty of other mobile coverage. Flats where the meters are buried in the basement of the block and have no signal. If you are not a town dwelling house owner, it's a problem. 

7 hours ago, domhnall said:

 

hydrogen will never be as efficient. Hydrogen is produced by burning fossil fuels. You can do it using renewables but you lose a lot of energy in the process of converting electricity into hydrogen and then using the hydrohen to produce electricity to power the vehicle. Rather than losing all of that energy in the process, it's much more efficient to jist take the renewable energy and power the wheels with it. The fficiency levels of an EV are staggeringcompared with hydrogen and ICE vehicles. As for Ford's concerns about using minerals it never seemed to bother them when using vast amounts of cobalt as part of the refining process for ICE vehicles. I thonk it is more to do with wanting to sweat the existing assets and protect their investment in petrol and diesel

 

 

 

I don't think that the inefficiency of renewables converting water to hydrogen is that much of a problem, especially when you consider the big impact that mining for minerals used in batteries is causing at the moment. But the 2 arguments for hydrogen are interesting.

 

The ICE one relies on the fact we already have the infrastructure and manufacturing in place to make them (a redesign of cylinder heads and injects notwithstanding). The building of so many mega factories, designing EV cars (huge amount of emissions from all that computing) and completely new manufacturing facilities has produced a massive amount of green house gas over the last few years and the break even for emissions of a large battery EV are only after a surprisingly high number of miles. I've seen JCB being quite open about the challenges of Hydrogen ICE and accept they had to do a fair bit of work to sort the emissions out. In an ICE car we would probably have to accept that we may have a decent amount of torque, but probably not a huge amount of power, more akin to an average family diesel in its performance and not like a 911.

 

Harry Metcalf got some Carbon-neutral fuel in, for his fleet and said he will report on it later. He did mention the cost, approximately three times the current cost of fuel, but that would come down to some degree if it was scaled up in its production. I like the idea of carbon-neutral fuel for pretty much the same reasons as hydrogen ICE, we don't need to add extra millions of tonnes of green house gases building and designing new 'stuff'.  The hydrogen fuel cell is also fine with me and there seems to be a genuine move that manufacturers are looking at this in earnest. 

 

As far as I know, the number 2 car on the Dust to dust rating is still the series 1 Land Rover. Something I doubt electric cars will ever come close to replicating. It's not that I don't like the idea of electric cars and I accept that although I will never have any real interest or feel any more passion towards them than I do my fridge freezer, we need to do something about global warming and cars are a contributor to its rising. I simply feel that of all the alternatives, the wrong direction to head in, is the battery electric vehicle. 

 

On a positive note, this super warm weather of late has brought about my best ever range in my PHEV, even with the air con on full tilt, as its batteries seem happier.

3 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

I don't think that the inefficiency of renewables converting water to hydrogen is that much of a problem, especially when you consider the big impact that mining for minerals used in batteries is causing at the moment.

The former is a continued waste of energy.

The latter is a one-time mining followed by the battery being constantly in-use, then re-used, recycled into new battery.

 

I don't have the data, but even if the latter is 10 times more harmful (both CO2 and ecological), it still makes sense to transition to the latter at a controlled pace in order to avoid waste.

 

Not to mention the infrastructure argument for hydrogen doesn't work. Unlike EV that can charge at home. Who is going to buy hydrogen car that can only refuel 80 miles away and range is only 400 miles?

 

4 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

The building of so many mega factories, designing EV cars (huge amount of emissions from all that computing) and completely new manufacturing facilities has produced a massive amount of green house gas over the last few years and the break even for emissions of a large battery EV are only after a surprisingly high number of miles.

Building new factories are only due to existing factories are still being used to produce ICE cars. Manufacturers need to stop the latter and commit.

 

Check out this peer reviewed published scientific paper on total CO2 emissions:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000867

Quote

For example, the additional production emissions of a Tesla Model 3 Standard Plus approximately correspond to the driving emissions of a Volkwagen Passat 2.0 TSI after 18 000 km.

(Audi g-tron 🤪 )

@wyx087Who buys and leases cars or vehicles that run on hydrogen might well be local authorities where they have filling station in their towns or cities and 400 mile range is just fine.

No need to travel 80 miles to fill up, that would be ridiculous.  Or not that different from areas in the UK where people do actually need to travel 40 miles to get to a filling station and 40 miles home.

Likely not something that one might experience in London. 

 

http://aberdeencity.gov.uk/net-zero-aberdeen/h2-aberdeen-hydrogen-here/projects-h2-aberdeen

http://greenfleet.net/features/25112016/fife-councils-hydrogen-plans

http://aberdeencity.gov.uk/news/aberdeen-city-council-adds-uks-first-hydrogen-fuel-cell-waste-truck-fleet

 

 

Edited 25 June, 20232 yr by toot

13 minutes ago, toot said:

Or not that different from areas in the UK where people do actually need to travel 40 miles to get to a filling station and 40 miles home.

Do people in those area have electricity at home?

Actually lots of people have not loads of money to go buy an EV that might not well do the job like being able to tow.

 

Certainly there are more with electricity available more than there appears to be in your area where there had to be payments made to have people use less. 

We are talking Council. taxis, commercials, heavy vehicles as well as private vehicles..

 

There is electricity in homes, in business,s and all over the place.  So much so that Scotland exports it to England.

 

But there needs to be an energy mix to reduce emissions.  

Edited 25 June, 20232 yr by toot

Oh yes, I totally agree there need to be an energy mix..... for commercial, heavy vehicles and up.

But for any other small passenger vehicle (private, taxi, <100 mi towing) , EV works perfectly.

 

When payments are made to get people to use less, is that only during peak hours? Does that ever happen the whole 24 hours? Would mass adoption of Vehicle-2-grid be beneficial in those areas?

Battery is the new frontier

Nuclear, wind and wave electricity generation built near to where it is going to be used by the most is what is needed.

Then the charging for all those that really do not have 'Home Chargers' off road parking, that is real world not some strange statistics that the various organisations come up with for the 4 countries of the UK.

 

EV,s really do not work perfectly well for many who have winter conditions more often / longer and colder than you might experience and where there is no local public  transport.

Hence people not wanting them, and that includes Nurses, carers, social workers and many that need to get a days work in and are not getting big battery cars.

Zoe, Leaf, Niro, Mini, Corsa, 208, ect etc that are fleet vehicles that the workers actually get provided with.

Then there are the trades people who actually do not work from home but drive vehicles and carry stuff and people.

 

.

The order books are full.

Those that need these and can afford them, and then there will no doubt be those that can afford them and not need them.

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 June, 20232 yr by toot