2 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

But according to reports not as fast as the rate of increase of EV sales, which is why some EV owners are finding it so difficult to charge they are switching back to ICE or PHEV.

 

I think it is a fairly roughly matched percentage increase, cars and chargers if not even across the country, and the range of these cars and the speed they can charge continues to increase exponentially as well.  More the worry should be that there is less and less ICE cars, vans, trucks on the road so petrol stations will sell less and less business, even more so because of not just pure electric cars but the self charging using less fuel, smaller fuel tanks so less bought per visit.  Some EV operators, most EV drivers will be leasing directly or on salary sacrifice schemes, who have not worked out a way to run their EV or their job has changed post pandemic, many companies are now insisting their staff attend the office at least 3 days a week rather than working from home.

 

At a worldwide level the change by car manufacturers to make EVs rather than ICE cars is happening even faster than most thought.  THe Tesla Model Y will be the best selling car in Europe this year replacing the VW Golf.  The European legacy manufacturers, and Japanese car manufacturers are seeing demands for their products half because they have only dabbled with EVs rather than gone in big time and now it is too late.  VW Group has $200B of debt and want to borrow another $200B to convert to proper mass EV production but the cost of borrowing has massively increased over the past few months and VW are not looking like as health as TESLA and even SAIC, BYD, Geely, etc. 

 

VAG, BMW, Mercedes and others may need to shout for protectionism from the EU ie raise the import duties, as for Anti-dumping investigations as TESLA and the Chinese can make cars at two thirds the price of the equivalent European legacy company and still make a profit whilst legacy European automotive companies, and US, have stated they are making EVs at a loss due to their antiquated battery tech and production techniques.  The writing on the wall is not only in China, where VW use to make half its profit, but in countries like Australia, Canada, the US, NZ and all the way to Norway where TESLA, BYD, MG are taking massive market share from the European, and Japanese and possibly Korean, who got the take up to EVs so wrong they have missed the boat.      

 

Edited 6 June, 20232 yr by lol-lol

4 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

But according to reports not as fast as the rate of increase of EV sales, which is why some EV owners are finding it so difficult to charge they are switching back to ICE or PHEV.

I think the crunch only happens during super busy times. It's still important to not have the bad experiences after sitting in motorway car parks, so I don't blame people switching to dino-juice.

Day-to-day use, most people would charge using own charge points because most EV buyers, even today, still able to charge on their driveway. So the problem of charger lagging behind isn't as problematic as not having enough petrol stations.

 

4 hours ago, J.R. said:

we now pay 20.62 cts per kwh = about 18p, off peak is relatively expensive at 16.15cts = 14p, these prices are fixed for a year, future increases are not likely to be any higher as 5% was far more than any previous increase and brought the strikers to the streets.

 

Did the UK government subsidise the cost of road fuel during the high period and also the cost of electricity?

Wow that's super cheap. That's what solid nuclear and less reliance on shaky geopolitical fuel does to a country.

 

I think after hitting £2 per litre diesel, in stations around Greater London, UK gov introduced a 5p reduction in fuel duty.

Between October 22 and June 23, a "price guarantee" was introduced for home energy. Electricity was reduced from 51.8p down to under 35p. Similar percentage reduction for gas unit rate IIRC.

 

 

Regarding the Japanese being too late to the party,  reckon that is their intended strategy.

 

I have been closely scrutinising Japanese cars since the 70's and their business practices and model since the late 80's, they have never been innovators but sit back and let others get burned with their innovative new features that become achilles heels and are usually dropped, some while later a Japanese manufacturer will introduce that feature without the fanfare and it will work faultlessly as all their systems do the result of patient design, testing and manufacture.

 

I can think of loads of quite benign things like a drum brake self adjust mechanism first used on Fiats that seemed a good idea but was rubbish in practice, a decade later it appeared on a Datsun and was faultless.

 

I reckon they will do the same with EV's and be the first real serious competitors to Tesla, I doubt we will see any public activity for a decade but you can be sure that they are already well on the journey, given the speed of innovation and progress in the EV market that 10 years will probably be 5 years.

 

Japanese, Korean and even Chinese EV's will be the long term winners I reckon, like me they play the long game.

12 hours ago, wyx087 said:

most EV buyers, even today, still able to charge on their driveway.

But especially in inner cities there are large numbers of properties that only have on road parking, not necessarily outside their own property.

 

So unless there is a significant increase in cheap charging away from homes that will cap the number of people able to charge an EV at an affordable price.

The issue for people who can't charge at home using home tariff has been discussed in the social divide thread. No doubt it's a roadblock for many, IMHO more in terms of convenience.

 

We are used to "EV is cheaper to re-energise" from last couple of years, we often forget other benefits such as much better to drive, servicing savings and environmental benefits. Charging cheaply is a bonus to EV ownership for some people but it would be foolish to expect this to last forever. As calculated earlier, around 40p/kWh (at poor 3.33 mi/kWh and 40p/kWh is Tesla supercharger price at any time not late afternoon) the per-mile cost is comparable to £1.50 at 50mpg. So it is still possible to own a Tesla and exclusively supercharge and still at price parity to fossil fuel.

 

 

The way I see it, get it cheap while it lasts.

Edited 7 June, 20232 yr by wyx087

I think if the Office for National Statistics or A.N.Other was to do the 'score on the doors' that 'most EV,s'  in the UK are Company Cars or for business use,  owned / leased by local authorities, NHS, Social Work, etc and not more than 50 % are privately owned or leased.

 

Someplace there might well be statistics by country or region.   

Statistics on  Vehicle & EV ownership in London with over 8 million or more of a population, or Scotland with under 6 million of a population.

 

This Off road parking, driveway stuff that keeps getting trotted out i suspect is total guff.

DVLA know registered keepers address's but not actually where vehicles are parked.   Insurance companies know where they are told vehicles are kept overnight.

I did some searching for the source of off-street parking stats, can't find the actual research. But did find varying statistics:

 

This 2012 fact sheet from  RAC, but top result in Google, says only a quarter of vehicles in GB are parked on the street, all others are in garages or driveways.

https://www.racfoundation.org/assets/rac_foundation/content/downloadables/facts_on_parking.pdf

 

Also from RAC, 2021, they say cars are parked 23 hours a day on average. Perfect to function as grid support battery IMO.

https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/cars-parked-23-hours-a-day

Quote

Breaking the numbers down:

• Wales – 75% of households have – or could have – off-street parking and EV charging
• England – 68%
• Scotland – 63%
• London – 44%

 

From government publications, DfT published "Public Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure" research report. In there, section 2.1, says 24% households in England do not have access to off-street parking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/public-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-drivers-without-access-to-off-street-parking

 

From government "Statistical data set, English Housing Survey data on amenities, services and local environments " , go down to "Parking and mains gas", the statistics for "garage" and "other off road parking" added together is just over 67%:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/amenities-services-and-local-environments

 

So we don't know how all the different data came about, but the conclusion I can draw from the statistics is that UK households that can charge at home is definitely well over half.

 

 

 

Related stats for public charger numbers. This report shows exponential growth for number of public chargers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/electric-vehicle-charging-device-statistics-april-2023/electric-vehicle-charging-device-statistics-april-2023

Scotland seems to have the best per capita charger numbers:

@wyx087 And it's taken you a whole 20 hours to get blocked on my new account.

8 minutes ago, Paws4Thot said:

@wyx087 And it's taken you a whole 20 hours to get blocked on my new account.

Who are you?

So many UK road registered cars are sitting in Long Stay or short stay at airports, and in compounds at hirers, then sitting at garages, as in dealership compounds, car super markets etc etc. 

You only need to drive about in the UK to see where cars are in council house estates, villages, towns and cities and look at 4 in a block housing, multi storey buildings and various types of housing, then semi detached or detached. 

 

the 24% of housing in England not having off street parking is yet another fantasy in a country where the government have no idea how many are in the country, how many properties are sub divided or illegal properties of multiple occupation.  

More importantly the UK government , Dft / DVSA have no idea how may illegal vehicles are on UK roads, but then they are unlikely to be EV,s and when illegals get parked 'Off road'.

1 hour ago, Paws4Thot said:

@wyx087 And it's taken you a whole 20 hours to get blocked on my new account.

Are you Canadian, @Paws4Thot?

Or a Fifer residing on the West Coast.

 

That got me in trouble from a Fifer last time i posted the likes.   

 

Plenty houses / homes in parts of Fife have the possibility of off street parking , just to get things back on topic.

 

Then for Electric Vehicles like at the Open Golf in St Andrews and the Executive Travel EV's they can just bring the Diesel Generators to charge them & still they had not enough range to get to Edinburgh or Glasgow airport and back without having to try and get on chargers. 

 

,...........................

Pathetic in Fife for 50 kW Rapid charging and 'Destination Charging'.

Edited 7 June, 20232 yr by toot

3 hours ago, toot said:

Then for Electric Vehicles like at the Open Golf in St Andrews and the Executive Travel EV's they can just bring the Diesel Generators to charge them & still they had not enough range to get to Edinburgh or Glasgow airport and back without having to try and get on chargers. 

It's only 82 miles from KY16 9PF to GLA. 50 miles to EDI. Are executive travel EV's first-gen Nissan Leaf's?

 

The thing with off-street parking is that allocated parking for flats or some cheaper new builds do count as off-street parking. So key here is somehow getting charge points installed in those parking spots, often across public space.

I see government support to help with those kind of charge point installs is still on-going: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/government-grants-for-low-emission-vehicles

Mercedes Luxury Minibuses.  Not the latest as you get now.

They had a 95 mile range.   So allow for the driver getting on a charger before collecting passengers from the airport requires them to get on any of the 5 Edinburgh Park & Ride chargers with usually 2 out of order and people wanting on them, and a max 30 minutes charge time.

(Me explaining to 2 drivers with their vehicles why the Charge Place Scotland cards they were given do not work and they might get the App to start the chargers if they put them on their phones, that they had not the accounts so they need to try getting CPS to start a charger or use a credit or debit card as i do, and all this while there are no chargers as me and other are on them and someone waiting, and the flights are due in that they are meeting people off of. It got no better as the week went on.)

 

Glasgow is even worse with a total lack of rapid chargers near.

So drivers that travel with the likes of events and unfamiliar with localities are virtually up creaks without paddles and back at base there with Diesel Generators charging the vehicles. 

That is Real World.

 

I see that the Westminster Government has different grants than the Scottish Government.

There is a different Secretary of State for Transport & Minister for Transport because there are devolved governments in Scotland & Wales.

http://transport.gov.scot/news/30-million-to-support-the-shift-to-zero-emission-transport

 

The Scottish Transport Minister resigned this week for health reason, he used to be the Minister for Mental Health & Well Being.

He was as hopeless as those that went before him were.

Millions and millions are thrown at getting EV,s on the road in Scotland and chargers and it is just wasted in many cases as the Maintenance of many Public Chargers is pathetic, and the speed with which planning, approval and then actually building and going live happens.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63371759

 

http://dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/over-1000-faults-found-ev-29239495

 

The actual key is getting on with it and not just announcing plans,

and the  then when people invest and build hubs and install chargers get them actually turned on.

 

Edited 7 June, 20232 yr by toot

6 hours ago, toot said:

Mercedes Luxury Minibuses.  Not the latest as you get now.

They had a 95 mile range.   So allow for the driver getting on a charger before collecting passengers from the airport requires them to get on any of the 5 Edinburgh Park & Ride chargers with usually 2 out of order and people wanting on them, and a max 30 minutes charge time.

(Me explaining to 2 drivers with their vehicles why the Charge Place Scotland cards they were given do not work and they might get the App to start the chargers if they put them on their phones, that they had not the accounts so they need to try getting CPS to start a charger or use a credit or debit card as i do, and all this while there are no chargers as me and other are on them and someone waiting, and the flights are due in that they are meeting people off of. It got no better as the week went on.)

Glasgow is even worse with a total lack of rapid chargers near.

So drivers that travel with the likes of events and unfamiliar with localities are virtually up creaks without paddles and back at base there with Diesel Generators charging the vehicles. 

That is Real World.

I see that the Westminster Government has different grants than the Scottish Government.

There is a different Secretary of State for Transport & Minister for Transport because there are devolved governments in Scotland & Wales.

http://transport.gov.scot/news/30-million-to-support-the-shift-to-zero-emission-transport

The Scottish Transport Minister resigned this week for health reason, he used to be the Minister for Mental Health & Well Being.

He was as hopeless as those that went before him were.

Millions and millions are thrown at getting EV,s on the road in Scotland and chargers and it is just wasted in many cases as the Maintenance of many Public Chargers is pathetic, and the speed with which planning, approval and then actually building and going live happens.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63371759  http://dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/over-1000-faults-found-ev-29239495

The actual key is getting on with it and not just announcing plans,  and the  then when people invest and build hubs and install chargers get them actually turned on.

 

Mercedes have sold some pretty lack lustre minibuses and vans and they have been built down to a low price and spec.

Unlike their big buses and trucks which are quality and have proper batteries and electric motors which make them impressive bits of kit Volvo similarly.

I will be visiting Multimodal at the NEC next week and I expect there will be kit like the Volvo Volvo FM Electric 6×2 tractor unit there, 666 hp and decent range. Lithium Iron Phosphate tech rather than LIthium ion it looks like.

Too many owners go for the lower spec batteries ie 60 kWh instead of 90 kWh which would have the faster charging too and then in winter they see the range decrease and moan when it is oft they did not do the research and buy the right tool for the job. 

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/latest-news/scotlands-first-on-road-all-electric-tractor-unit-goes-into-service/679983.article  

 

One of Scotland’s leading Scotch whisky producers, Chivas Brothers, has taken Scotland’s first on-road all-electric tractor unit into service in partnership with Volvo Trucks.

The truck is a Volvo FM Electric 6×2 tractor unit pulling a tri-axle box van trailer and operating at up to 44 tonnes gross vehicle weight. The truck is capable of hauling approximately 24 tonnes of whisky per journey and will cover between 250-300 miles per day, clocking up at least 62,000 miles per annum.  It forms the basis of a first-of-its-kind pilot programme, to be managed by McPherson’s, Chivas Brothers’ long-term haulage partner, designed to push the truck to its full capabilities and help the industry understand how electrification can benefit heavy trucks in the future. This truck alone will cut Chivas Brothers’ carbon emissions by 155 tonnes per annum,

  

On 04/06/2023 at 11:02, Warrior193 said:

Saw an interesting short interview from Rowan Atkinson (Independent) on EVs, his opinion is the 'honeymoon period' is coming to its end and says he feels 'duped' over some of the green claims for them. He was quoting recent data from Volvo, regarding production emissions compared to petrol vehicles.

 

This was mentioned in the other thread, but I think this thread is more suitable.

 

Original Mr Atkinson's article: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

 

The follow-up fact check: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles

 

The idea that keeping old banger produces less carbon emission is false:

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change/

(This is "assuming both cars drive 150,000 kilometres over a 12-year lifetime", lower annual mileage than UK average of 8k)

 

Mr Atkinson also talked about e-fuel, here's a timely summary video:

 

On 03/06/2023 at 22:15, toot said:

@domhnallthe car has been plugged in at home since 11am on a 3 pin charger, 

So that is at 33 pence a kWh. 

40 kWh will be £13.20 and that is ok for 135 miles or so.

 

Angus Council chargers are now 41 pence a kWh so £16.20

Tesco Podpoint for 7 kW charger is 44 pence.  £17.60

 

Aberdeenshire now 47 pence, £18.80 

Tesco Podpoint 50 kW charging is 62 pence, £24.80

Lidl Podpoint 65 pence, £26.00

Highland Region Rapid charging 70 pence, £28.00

 

Regardless of how crap a fossil car might be when paying your own money for getting about for private use 50 mpg is OK with me. 

Business use / HMRC generosity and bigger vehicles are a different kettle of fish or toasty machine. 

 

135 miles @ 50 mpg =2.7 gallons. (12.3 litres @ 150 pence £18.45) 

 

 

 

33p??? I pay 7.5p per kWh at home but for the last 3 weeks it's been free on solar. 

Even in winter because I am on intelligent octopus it's 7.5p and then the car means I often get that off peak rate right through to 11am. So having an EV actually makes my home energy cheaper whether I use it to heat the house, ciook a meal or put it into the car. There's no reason to be paying 33p if you have an EV

 

@domhnallIt was a one off, the only other time it was plugged in was to clear ice.

I have spent under £500 over 55,000 miles and maybe you could say how much you have paid for charging over that sort of mileage.

 

If you were my neighbour i could maybe get charged at your house then.

There is reason to be paying a standard tariff with no smart meter or charger. 

 

I was with Octopus, but still had no smart meter of charger, and am with Eon Next after them moving me from Eon and exactly the same no smart meter & no available EV / Off peak tariff.

Charging near home was free until last November so i had no need to charge actually at home.

 

But then on the bright side my Electric & Gas and standing charges cost me £2.41 a day presently.

Edited 8 June, 20232 yr by toot

1 hour ago, toot said:

@domhnallIt was a one off, the only other time it was plugged in was to clear ice. I have spent under £500 over 55,000 miles and maybe you could say how much you have paid for charging over that sort of mileage.

 

1 hour ago, toot said:

If you were my neighbour i could maybe get charged at your house then.

There is reason to be paying a standard tariff with no smart meter or charger. 

I was with Octopus, but still had no smart meter of charger, and am with Eon Next after them moving me from Eon and exactly the same no smart meter & no available EV / Off peak tariff.

Charging near home was free until last November so i had no need to charge actually at home.

 

1 hour ago, toot said:

But then on the bright side my Electric & Gas and standing charges cost me £2.41 a day presently.

 

About the same for me as 🐙 was 5p a kwh plus i charge at work for free so about a penny per mile for lecky.

1 hour ago, domhnall said:

 

There's no reason to be paying 33p if you have an EV

 

Unable to get a smart meter is one very common reason. 

1 hour ago, toot said:

But then on the bright side my Electric & Gas and standing charges cost me £2.41 a day presently.

That's waaaay too expensive. Any reason behind it?

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

That's waaaay too expensive. Any reason behind it?

 

Bit less than a quid a day for standing charge and about £1.50 for lecky and gas usage I presume.

 

Mine is probably about £3 a day currently down from more than £10 a day in winter and that includes running an EV for about 8k miles per year.

 

I use about two thirds of lecky at the cheap 7.5p a kWh and one third at the 40p per kWh by using solar generator batteries which down about 3 kWh of lecky to keep fridge freezer laptop etc thru the day.  Could fairly easily more to 80/20 or even 90/10 % use night/day electricity and will before next winter.

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@lol-lolexactly. 

No gas used just the daily standing charge and the electric standing charge and 4-5 units of electric.  If 5 kWh then you get to £2.41 a day. 

 

Those in the south seem to be unaware that were there is lots of electricity generated have the highest tariffs.

Even where the biggest pylons will be to transmit the electricity past their community to the south for it to be cheaper.

http://thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/angus-mearns/4458535/ssen-miss-forfar-out-on-pylon-project-briefing

The Forties Oil & Gas pipeline from the North Sea and from St Fergus to Grangemouth runs almost exactly in the same line as these pylons are going.

I have no objection to pylons, wind turbines, solar farms or hydro schemes nearby, just that where their are surpluses those nearest pay the most.

 

 

Edited 9 June, 20232 yr by toot

@toot Completely agree. In North Wales we have one of the highest standing charges, yet we have one of the largest off-shore windfarms in the UK off the coast. We have two large windfarms just up the road from our village. Like you, I have no objection but why do I pay more for my leccy than other parts of the UK that generate nowt? Even my suggestion that the windfarm community benefit fund money (bribe to objectors) should be used to subsidise the leccy bill of those affected was scoffed at by the powers that be, but was popular with bill payers. Instead, the money is used for grants for 'community projects' that should be funded by the council.

On 08/06/2023 at 08:36, wyx087 said:

 The follow-up fact check: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles

 

The idea that keeping old banger produces less carbon emission is false:

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change/

(This is "assuming both cars drive 150,000 kilometres over a 12-year lifetime", lower annual mileage than UK average of 8k)

 

An interesting perspective:

 

 

Gaz