12 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

My mx5 is 28 years old now and Euro 2...   I have no doubt it'll still be around in 2030 albeit probably not doing many miles... 

True, but the vast majority of cars that old and many more younger will have met their maker either by being written off in RTAs or through scrappage schemes etc as the authorities tighten the noose around their necks even more as the years tick by.

 

For example, this video gives loads of information and the information he is referring to can be found and downloaded here as a spreadsheet. Car scrappage scheme in 2009 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

 

  

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

In fact in the average house, levels are often considerably higher as a result of the gas being used for cooking or heating, means that more Londoners and indeed people anywhere, are daily exposed to poorer air quality in their own homes, schools, offices etc, so what is being done about those positions?

Nothing other than education is needed, the air quality in homes are by personal choice. Only need to bring awareness to this issue.

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

It is also highly likely also that by 2030, there may be hardly any Euro 5 cars left, as the emission standards will get progressively more draconian and the bad boy by then might Euro 6 or even Euro 7 which already considerably lower tailpipe emissions.

See, this is the issue with tailpipe emissions: ever moving goal post.

The issue can be entirely solved by removing the tailpipe. Centralise power production, which in turn, allows more control of the emissions and any upgrade also reduces emissions across the fleet.

 

Would they find another cash cow? Absolutely, I think the next one might be vehicle weight, if it isn't across all vehicles.

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol I think you will find if you dig into it a bit more that EV cars might not be the answer either. There can be no denying that our air has become massively cleaner over the years. I can remember in the 70s driving a lorry in London that on many occasions everything just ground to a complete halt, or at best a crawl with engines at idle in 1st gear as the air was so polluted that in places you could not see 3 bus lengths away, and the buses back then were only 27ft (8.2m) long. We have come a long way since then, coal was the fuel of choice for heating and London in those days had loads of industrial estates and heavy industry / foundries all contributing massively.

These days, those factories etc have gone (mostly overseas), industrial estates mostly now have become housing estates or retail parks and gas / electric is now used for heating and engines have grown to be more efficient and far cleaner and now of course we are on Euro 7 class of cleaner engines. Cars these days are also do not emit far less pollution than they used, but also many do massively more miles to gallon. Back then I had a 1.2L Ford Cortina which did in the low 20s to the gallon and now I have 2L Superb in which I regularly get over 60 mpg and way lower tailpipe emissions, thats a sign of how far we have come, for example almost a tripling of MPG and more likely a massive 10 times or higher less  emissions to boot.

 

In fact in 1952 London had pea-souper fog that lasted for 5 days and killed at least 4,000 plus people, some estimates say it was more like 12,000. Hmm, maybe that is where the current London Mayor plucked his 4,000 Londoners dying prematurely from air pollution.

 

The UK figure of shortened lives due to air pollution was 40k for the UK of which 10k were in London.  EVs are part of the solution but heat pumps attacking the domestic and industrial pollution from hydrocarbon pollution being added to the air, rather than heat pumps run on renewable energy should cut air pollution very significantly.

 

London air pollution is not a long solved issue which happened in the 50s and has been solved by moving to smokeless coal or banning log burning but is clear from my "digging", or actually just looking for the facts rather than digging up seventy year old mainly anecdotal information and pictures as is linked below.  Worth bearing in mind that the level of "moderate" can trigger health issues especially for those with pre-conditions....   https://www.london.gov.uk/mayor-london-issues-high-air-pollution-alert

 

12 June 2023  -   Air pollution alert issued   -   The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan has triggered a ‘high’ air pollution alert for tomorrow, Tuesday 13 June, as London experiences the effects of pollution which has travelled in from the continent alongside a build-up of local emissions and sunny weather with high temperatures.  Imperial College London forecasters advised the Mayor to issue the alert due to a strong likelihood of high ozone levels, caused by the hot, sunny weather tomorrow and south-easterly winds blowing existing pollutants from the continent towards London.  This is the second high air pollution alert this year. The last alert was in January, with one day of high pollution followed by three days of moderate air pollution.   Tomorrow will be the 201st day of either moderate or high levels of air pollution Londoners have experienced over the last five years. In total there have been 15 high pollution days (including tomorrow) and 186 moderate pollution days since the start of 2018.

 

25 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Nothing other than education is needed, the air quality in homes are by personal choice. Only need to bring awareness to this issue.

 

See, this is the issue with tailpipe emissions: ever moving goal post.

The issue can be entirely solved by removing the tailpipe. Centralise power production, which in turn, allows more control of the emissions and any upgrade also reduces emissions across the fleet.

 

Would they find another cash cow? Absolutely, I think the next one might be vehicle weight, if it isn't across all vehicles.

I'm not too sure what you mean when you say it is by personal choice, what other options do you have apart from gas or electric? Electric just really moves the pollution to somewhere else as a huge amount of our electric comes indirectly via the burning of fossil fuels, so other people near generating stations get to suffer the harmful air?

 

Ever moving goal post, yes this is a problem, but the fact is that tailpipe emissions have been reducing for years, and so has the amount of fossil fuels such as coal being burnt. In fact, it is on record that London and other major cities and towns had very poor air quality and bad fogs even back in the 1800s, so in real terms we have never had it so good, despite the increase of personal transport in the form motor vehicles. Back in 1952, London had 5 long days of continuous thick fog that also took the lives of somewhere between 4,000 and 12,000 Londoners according to historical records.

 

Just because EV's don't have a tailpipe, it does not mean that they themselves don't generate a large amount of pollution because that is simply not true, rubber wear, brake pads all contribute to air quality. They also generate huge amounts of pollution in the mining/extraction of the raw materials and the shipping of those across the globe as raw materials and then again as partly finished goods and then again as fully assembled cars. And there is a huge problem with exploitation, environmental damage and masses of water used in the extraction of the minerals to make up the batteries. This water is in a location that is also naturally challenged for water anyway which is having a huge impact on the populations in these areas and farming for food also suffers. So for us over here to enjoy less pollution, in other parts of globe others are getting that pollution. 

 

Lets make it clear, I'm not saying that I have or know the answers to the problems, but I do seriously doubt that making EV compulsory or even giving up our personal modes of transport for public mass transport is the answer either, it really ought to be down to personal choice as none of us know what breakthroughs are just around the corner.  

 

But I think that we can now make a big difference by not buying any more of these large engined vehicles when they are using same road network as the rest of us are and their enhanced performance cannot be realised anyway, a maximum capacity of 2L ought to be enough anyway.

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm not too sure what you mean when you say it is by personal choice, what other options do you have apart from gas or electric? Electric just really moves the pollution to somewhere else as a huge amount of our electric comes indirectly via the burning of fossil fuels, so other people near generating stations get to suffer the harmful air?

 

Ever moving goal post, yes this is a problem, but the fact is that tailpipe emissions have been reducing for years, and so has the amount of fossil fuels such as coal being burnt. In fact, it is on record that London and other major cities and towns had very poor air quality and bad fogs even back in the 1800s, so in real terms we have never had it so good, despite the increase of personal transport in the form motor vehicles. Back in 1952, London had 5 long days of continuous thick fog that also took the lives of somewhere between 4,000 and 12,000 Londoners according to historical records.

 

Just because EV's don't have a tailpipe, it does not mean that they themselves don't generate a large amount of pollution because that is simply not true, rubber wear, brake pads all contribute to air quality. They also generate huge amounts of pollution in the mining/extraction of the raw materials and the shipping of those across the globe as raw materials and then again as partly finished goods and then again as fully assembled cars. And there is a huge problem with exploitation, environmental damage and masses of water used in the extraction of the minerals to make up the batteries. This water is in a location that is also naturally challenged for water anyway which is having a huge impact on the populations in these areas and farming for food also suffers. So for us over here to enjoy less pollution, in other parts of globe others are getting that pollution. 

 

Lets make it clear, I'm not saying that I have or know the answers to the problems, but I do seriously doubt that making EV compulsory or even giving up our personal modes of transport for public mass transport is the answer either, it really ought to be down to personal choice as none of us know what breakthroughs are just around the corner.  

 

But I think that we can now make a big difference by not buying any more of these large engined vehicles when they are using same road network as the rest of us are and their enhanced performance cannot be realised anyway, a maximum capacity of 2L ought to be enough anyway.

 

You are so lacking in knowledge it is amazing you can write so much with so little knowledge of the actual facts.

 

Electric cars very rarely use their disc brakes and therefore produce brake dust.  EVs tend to suffer from their brakes being so inactive that they often suffer from under use, being partial seized because of so little use as commonly over 90% of the "braking" is done by the regen process.  Brake disc, pads etc will last many times longer in an EV than an ICE car. 

 

37 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Brake disc, pads etc will last many times longer in an EV than an ICE car. 

 

Skoda ones wont, the  software automatically adds the line "front & rear brake discs & pads 75% worn" to every service invoice.

49 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

You are so lacking in knowledge it is amazing you can write so much with so little knowledge of the actual facts.

 

Electric cars very rarely use their disc brakes and therefore produce brake dust.  EVs tend to suffer from their brakes being so inactive that they often suffer from under use, being partial seized because of so little use as commonly over 90% of the "braking" is done by the regen process.  Brake disc, pads etc will last many times longer in an EV than an ICE car. 

 

Not ever going to, or have I disputed that, but the fact still remains that they have brakes, and they do get used to varying degrees, as does my ICE car as it also has regenerative braking. So did my previous car and when we parted company at almost 80,000 miles in 9.5 years, it was only on its 2nd set of pads and original discs. Regenerative braking is good, but it can't slow a car quick enough to avoid accidents due to others actions on the road. So no I'm not lacking in knowledge, but I'm a realist and accept the facts that are there in full view for everyone to see. 

 

It is becoming increasingly clear that EV cars carry a significant fire hazard with them and I understand that some residential buildings in London area at least will not allow them into their underground car parks due to the insurance companies will not provide cover. Repair centres for EV cars that have been involved in accidents are being told by insurers that they must now store EV vehicles awaiting  repairs, outside in the open air and at least 15 metres away from other structures or vehicles. Hydrogen vehicles are also not the answer as they also carry a huge fire and explosion risk, and a hydrogen explosion is hugely destructive, many times more so than a current petrol vehicle.

 

I used to think that EV was the way forward until I looked into it more and I now I see that it is not the solution either but one thing for sure, I do believe that we will stumble upon something that will be far better than anything we currently have if we keep working on it.

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

 

Skoda ones wont, the  software automatically adds the line "front & rear brake discs & pads 75% worn" to every service invoice.

 

Dishonest practice.

 

One simply does not use the brake pedal in an EV, or one really should not as vast majority of quite recent EVs have massive regen braking, think my Zoe is whacking in 30 kWs ie 40 hp, 30,000 joules per second in "B" strong regen mode.  Some cars have even stronger regen ie LEAF, Megane-e have even stronger levels of reg which can add 10, 20% or more to the range ie the onboard computer shows I have started with say 52 kws but has have regen'd another 10 kWs which at say 4 miles per kW, not that hard as I have been getting more like 4.5 miles/kW in high summer, means my battery can take me say 220 miles and my regen'd power another 40 miles on top of that.  Regen cannot happen so strongly when battery is over 90% charge as it cannot take the 30 kW feedback in to the Traction Battery.

 

But as to brakes, as Clarkson said, if you using brakes you are not a good driver, paraphrased.  

 

Not everyone will drive in the same fashion as you do, many younger drivers will still rely heavily on brakes, They are also the drivers who tend to overtake you where others would hang back as they can see zero advantage in arriving at the next set of lights a couple of seconds before you, just to waste the fuel overtaking and then spend the time gained stationary at the lights while you roll up and stop right behind them. 

31 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm not too sure what you mean when you say it is by personal choice, what other options do you have apart from gas or electric? Electric just really moves the pollution to somewhere else as a huge amount of our electric comes indirectly via the burning of fossil fuels, so other people near generating stations get to suffer the harmful air?

Personal choice as in home owner get to choose between gas cooker or electric cooker to improve indoor air quality.

 

The idea is that electric powered cooking are centralised and can be cleaned up in due course. Right now 4pm-7pm cooking is mostly gas powered due to peak in demand and gas power plants can react quickly. This is less efficient than just burning gas at point of use. But as higher percentage of electricity is generated by renewables, the green house gas produced by cooking will be reduced.

 

The idea of shifting pollution get to be applied to EV as well, but people often forget, with batteries, one is not limited in power source. Batteries are energy storage, they don't need to be re-energised at a constant rate. We can and should use it as a sink for excess renewables.

For example, I'm charging from my roof-top solar from ~9:15. The charge rate closely tracks solar production in today's windy and mixed day:

 

 

43 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Just because EV's don't have a tailpipe, it does not mean that they themselves don't generate a large amount of pollution because that is simply not true, rubber wear, brake pads all contribute to air quality. They also generate huge amounts of pollution in the mining/extraction of the raw materials and the shipping of those across the globe as raw materials and then again as partly finished goods and then again as fully assembled cars. And there is a huge problem with exploitation, environmental damage and masses of water used in the extraction of the minerals to make up the batteries. This water is in a location that is also naturally challenged for water anyway which is having a huge impact on the populations in these areas and farming for food also suffers. So for us over here to enjoy less pollution, in other parts of globe others are getting that pollution. 

 

Lets make it clear, I'm not saying that I have or know the answers to the problems, but I do seriously doubt that making EV compulsory or even giving up our personal modes of transport for public mass transport is the answer either, it really ought to be down to personal choice as none of us know what breakthroughs are just around the corner.  

Rubber wear - same across all vehicles, variable is weight. Properly designed BEV doesn't weigh more than ICE. For example Tesla Model Y at under 2T vs other large SUV with similar interior space.

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

but it can't slow a car quick enough to avoid accidents due to others actions on the road.

Brake pads - yes, they do contribute in terms of particulate pollution. But at same time, EV's mostly do regen braking. So is guaranteed to generate less particulate matter than any electrified ICE car with a tiny battery. Larger battery EV's can do regen braking at over 100 kW. Meaning it can brake harder than typical small ICE can accelerate. It is still not enough to stop in time for emergency (hence friction brake are still installed), but it can be relied upon for pretty much all normal driving, even enthusiastic ones.

 

Mining/extraction/transport/manufacturing pollution - There's also massive amount of pollution for oil exploration, extraction, refinery and finally distribution for a one-time consumable!

On the other hand, the higher initial vehicle production emissions are offset during use. The production emissions are "paid back" in as low as 20 thousand km according to some studies. At end of life in a vehicle, the batteries are still useful in stationary applications. Finally, the rare earth materials can be recycled.

 

Fact checks:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change/

 

Breakthrough may be just around the corner, but what breakthrough are there that are ready for huge mass adoption within a few years?

The key question is, who really benefits when the transition to clean energy is delayed by waiting for the best solution? (fossil fuel industry)

Who really benefits when we delay transition to renewables because UK have no way to store the excess production? (gas supplying entities)

 

@wyx087 Look, we both make some good points that reflect how we use the vehicles, and we keep on scoring points off each other till the cows come home so I'm not going to continue this path other than to say that going full on EV adoption will just add yet more damage to the earth in addition to the oil wells, which we will still need in addition to the other resources for EV's as we still need plastics which are derived from oil, we still need grease and lubrication oils which are also by products from the production of petrol and diesel. Therefore, what are we going to use petrol and diesel for in the future?

 

Does it not make sense to continue using it like we do now, but carry on looking for ways to use it more effectively, so we use less of it to achieve the same result and also find ways to eradicate the harmful emissions without adding more problems. Just managing to use less with the same results is a major win because that also means less emissions at the same time.

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

It's not about point scoring, it's about getting the facts straight. I'm always happy to be corrected with good quality references.

 

I think we are in the process of transitioning away from plastic and other oil derived products. For example, "bag for life", rubber and lubricant can be produced using silicone rather than petroleum byproducts.

 

As always, reduce, reuse and recycle. In this order.

18 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

It's not about point scoring, it's about getting the facts straight. I'm always happy to be corrected with good quality references.

 

I think we are in the process of transitioning away from plastic and other oil derived products. For example, "bag for life", rubber and lubricant can be produced using silicone rather than petroleum byproducts.

 

As always, reduce, reuse and recycle. In this order.

Which is exactly what I endeavour to all the time, and as for which is better overall for the planet EV or ICE, only time itself will tell. I see it really as just yet another version of the petrol v diesel debate and I can remember when we were all urged to switch over to diesel as it was a greener fuel, which we today know is not the case at all. Yes, I still drive a diesel because I love the way they deliver the torque low down in the rev range and achieve high MPG while still delivering the HP. I also like to think that with the modern diesels being so good on efficiency that the impact on the environment is less per litre because of the greater distance travelled on that litre. I've not seen any evidence to that effect, but it seems to me to be a logical conclusion?

@J.R.Drum brakes on the rear of the Skoda EV,s.

 

The brake pad wear with the disc brakes really is from cleaning the rust off them. 

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by toot

44 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I see it really as just yet another version of the petrol v diesel debate and I can remember when we were all urged to switch over to diesel as it was a greener fuel, which we today know is not the case at all.

Well..... actually, diesel is still "greener" in the sense it produces less CO2 per km. It's just localised harmful pollution is much much worse for Euro 5 and earlier vehicles.

 

I don't think this is another "switch to diesel". That was evolutionary, emission reduction were around 10% for CO2. But with EV, it is possible to completely drive on renewable energy.

With ICE, it is a snapshot in time. The CO2 per km may only get worse as it ages, it will never get better.

With EV, its CO2 per km changes as the electrical grid changes. If charge on renewable means CO2 per km is 0.

Transition to EV (removal of ICE) is a huge step change, not n evolutionary shuffle.

 

If you like the way diesel pulls, you'll love the way EV pushes

56 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Well..... actually, diesel is still "greener" in the sense it produces less CO2 per km. It's just localised harmful pollution is much much worse for Euro 5 and earlier vehicles.

 

I don't think this is another "switch to diesel". That was evolutionary, emission reduction were around 10% for CO2. But with EV, it is possible to completely drive on renewable energy.

With ICE, it is a snapshot in time. The CO2 per km may only get worse as it ages, it will never get better.

With EV, its CO2 per km changes as the electrical grid changes. If charge on renewable means CO2 per km is 0.

Transition to EV (removal of ICE) is a huge step change, not n evolutionary shuffle.

 

If you like the way diesel pulls, you'll love the way EV pushes

Yes, I know I will, even those people who hate EV infrastructure or the lack of it 😉 and say that they're going back to ICE when the time comes, all say that they absolutely love the instant oomph that the EV has. I had a Qashqai hybrid for almost 2 months when my mk2 got written off, and I was amazed at the oomph that gave me, but I also hated that occasionally it would, when I was stopping and trying to come to a nice smooth controlled stop, it would give a sudden forward jolt as I was applying less brake pedal pressure. This is how I was taught to drive by a bus driver, in order to use the brakes as little as possible, use the engine braking effect, to give your passengers as smooth a ride as possible.

 

 I just don't think that EV is the magic bullet that is cracked up to be. I've been a lifelong chronic Asthma sufferer and have been used to carrying round with me, 2 inhalers, neither of which I have not had to either use or indeed carry with me now for years as the air quality honestly has improved that much that I now have zero signs of any Asthma, even when I'm right inside the central zones of London. Hence why I was saying about being a cash cow and this global interactive live map of the air quality of countries and their cities and is zoomable right down to street level clearly shows that the UK air is good but laces like India for example need to take action to improve theirs. Air Pollution in World: Real-time Air Quality Index Visual Map (aqicn.org) 

 

 

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

You are so lacking in knowledge it is amazing you can write so much with so little knowledge of the actual facts.

 

Out of curiosity, do you know Graham well enough to make such a statement?

 

Fair play if you do.  But otherwise it doesn't seem very nice, and adds nothing to a quite interesting thread.  I actually think everyone makes good comments from all perspectives, which brings a nice bit of balance.

 

 

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

....but I also hated that occasionally it would, when I was stopping and trying to come to a nice smooth controlled stop, it would give a sudden forward jolt as I was applying less brake pedal pressure. This is how I was taught....

 

How I was taught too - cadence braking was it referred to at the time? (My memory fails me once again).  My Golf still catches me out from time to time, as I start gentle braking and the car decides to assist me, leaving any passengers wondering WTF I'm up to as we go into unnecessary braking.

 

Gaz

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by Gaz
typo

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I had a Qashqai hybrid for almost 2 months when my mk2 got written off, and I was amazed at the oomph that gave me, but I also hated that occasionally it would, when I was stopping and trying to come to a nice smooth controlled stop, it would give a sudden forward jolt as I was applying less brake pedal pressure.

Is that the Nissan e-power serial hybrid? It looks interesting, but the source of power cannot be changed from fossil fuel just like non-plug-in Toyota hybrids, so I personally don't like the idea of it.

 

On stopping, this is the problem with blended braking. On pure EV with one-pedal driving, it's a solved problem because the car takes care of EVERYTHING. not press anything and it  guarantees a smooth stop every time.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I now have zero signs of any Asthma, even when I'm right inside the central zones of London.

I would attribute this to ULEZ and congestion zone for cars and other steps for industries and clean up of home heating by introduction of gas central heating.

Google North Circular road outside N11 3PW retail park. The air quality there is always the worst due to congestion. Transitioning everyone to zero-emission-vehicle would massively improve air quality in that area.

 

EV wouldn't be any magic bullet if it were used as simple replacement to ICE cars. But they are so much more than it, the battery housed inside can be made to do many things in support of much higher renewable utilisation. (eg. simple sink, bi-directional home battery, bi-directional grid support battery) I've said this many times, EV is essential part of renewable transition.

12 minutes ago, Gaz said:

 

Out of curiosity, do you know Graham well enough to make such a statement?

 

Fair play if you do.  But otherwise it doesn't seem very nice, and adds nothing to a quite interesting thread.  I actually think everyone makes good comments from all perspectives, which brings a nice bit of balance.

 

 

 

How I was taught too.  My Golf still catches me out from time to time, as I start gentle braking and the car decides to assist me, leaving any passengers wondering WTF I'm up to as we go into unnecessary braking.

 

Gaz

Exactly right, maybe a little about me might save a lot of folk jumping on and covering old ground. I'm a retired electrical engineer who has always had a passion for electrics, technical things, buses and cars, so much so that when I was leaving school I thought long and hard about what I was going to do for a living. The careers service knew about these passions and said that they couldn't help me in finding employment with those interests. I went out one afternoon from school to see what I could do. I went into the local bus station (Eastern National) in those days and walked into the tiny engineering office at the back of the station where the servicing of the buses was done and asked if they had any jobs going as an auto electrician. An hour later I walked out with an apprenticeship that combined all of my passions and started work there the following week. 

 

The careers' officer was amazed that I had cracked it when their service had failed to make that kind of connection. So I went to college and passed all my exams, which were more involved than the courses that electrical contractors have to take. Went on to take a further course in advanced electrical engineering, and passed exams, did an instructor's course as well as the company were looking to set up their own in-house training facility as I had successfully taken on a couple of apprentices under my wing, while I was still completing my training, after the person was supposed to be teaching me on the job, got promoted to management, leaving me to run the electrical Dept and training 2 apprentices while looking after 2 bus depots with over 130 buses and coaches. So I'm not some wet behind the ears kid when it comes to technical issues, I have quite a good grasp of the issues at hand and processes involved, and so I tend to look over the fence before jumping, rather than just accepting what somebody else says I should do, especially when that person happens to be a politician, most of whom I would trust to replace a fuse in a plug top, and always have an ulterior motive.

Anyway, enough about where I came from and why I question the whole EV thing, I was trained to never accept anything I was told at face value without first probing it and look around the back door so to speak and see what horrors are hidden away from view and then formulate an opinion and that is what I'm doing with regard to air quality, ULEZ and also the EV scene and what I'm seeing is not convincing me at present that these are in our best interests.

24 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

... retired electrical engineer who has always had a passion for electrics, technical things, buses and cars... walked out with an apprenticeship that combined all of my passions and started work there the following week. 

....So I went to college and passed all my exams, which were more involved than the courses that....... advanced electrical engineering, and passed exams, did an instructor's course ...... as I had successfully taken on a couple of apprentices under my wing, while I was still completing my training..... leaving me to run the electrical Dept and training 2 apprentices while looking after 2 bus depots with over 130 buses and coaches...... So I'm not some wet behind the ears kid when it comes to technical issues, I have quite a good grasp of the issues at hand and processes involved.......

 

Yep, thought so, you're clearly 'lacking'  

 

(Dunno what in mind )

 

Gaz

 

1 hour ago, Gaz said:

 

Out of curiosity, do you know Graham well enough to make such a statement?

Fair play if you do.  But otherwise it doesn't seem very nice, and adds nothing to a quite interesting thread.  I actually think everyone makes good comments from all perspectives, which brings a nice bit of balance.

How I was taught too.  My Golf still catches me out from time to time, as I start gentle braking and the car decides to assist me, leaving any passengers wondering WTF I'm up to as we go into unnecessary braking.

Gaz

 

I do not need to know Graham to know his statement on EV braking demonstrates a lack of knowledge on how EVs run ie by doing the vast majority of their braking using regen and not touching the brake pedal which even then can do some regen and only with severe braking actually actuates the vehicle's disc and or drum brakes which will turn the vehicle's kinetic energy, via friction in these discs/drum, in to thermal energy but in fact tend to covert somewhere approaching 90% of that kinetic energy back into electrical energy back in to the Traction battery.

 

My own background, to help with completeness as the trend is being set above is ex Department of Transport and also getting a science degree with specialising in thermodynamic dynamic.  Originally trained as a diesel engine Engineering Officer with the UK merchant navy, did a degree placement with Piper on engine tuning, including race engines.  Got a 2-1 with honours in my degree.  I actually own an EV, have done for nearly two years, driven over 12k miles in which time I have hardly done any use of the brake pedal, I have a dodgy left knee so like the one leg one pedal driving.  Also had around 50 diesel, petrol, petrol-hybrid cars over the last near 45 years plus numerous 4 and 2 stroke motorcycles.  

 

There are so many mis informed news items like about EV braking systems or how many EVs catch fire, which seem to be being perculated by several so called news platforms that need to be called out so we can save this world, as far as possible, for our children, which I have several, and want to see them have a good chance of enjoying this world rather than inheriting an environmental catastrophe as it is looking like if such inaccurate statements as allowed to persist and are not called out as propaganda, or ignorance on the subject, whichever or both.

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Is that the Nissan e-power serial hybrid? It looks interesting, but the source of power cannot be changed from fossil fuel just like non-plug-in Toyota hybrids, so I personally don't like the idea of it.

 

On stopping, this is the problem with blended braking. On pure EV with one-pedal driving, it's a solved problem because the car takes care of EVERYTHING. not press anything and it  guarantees a smooth stop every time.

 

I would attribute this to ULEZ and congestion zone for cars and other steps for industries and clean up of home heating by introduction of gas central heating.

Google North Circular road outside N11 3PW retail park. The air quality there is always the worst due to congestion. Transitioning everyone to zero-emission-vehicle would massively improve air quality in that area.

 

EV wouldn't be any magic bullet if it were used as simple replacement to ICE cars. But they are so much more than it, the battery housed inside can be made to do many things in support of much higher renewable utilisation. (eg. simple sink, bi-directional home battery, bi-directional grid support battery) I've said this many times, EV is essential part of renewable transition.

No, it was a mild hybrid, similar system to the F1 cars, uses the energy stored from regen braking to assist in accelerating and or pulling away from a stationary position. The driver has zero control over it, it is fully automatic in operation.

 

As to the air quality at the location you mentioned, have a look at the attached screen prints taken this afternoon just after I ready reply, the actually air monitoring station is not at the retail park (which ps Frien Park Retail Estate but is located outside Bowes Primary School on the North Circular Road, which is about a mile away to the east of the retail park. The other one on the NCR is outside Ikea at Wembley which I attach a screen grab of at the same time, both of these readings are within safety zone which is below 50 so the first one reads just 3 and the Ikea one reads just 38. Hence why I doubt anything a politician tells me as they generally have another motive, and in this it rather looks that is the case, do you agree 😉

17 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

There are so many mis informed news items...   if such inaccurate statements as allowed to persist and are not called out as propaganda, or ignorance on the subject, whichever or both.

 

 

So surely you should be welcoming Graham's interrogation of the data and news items?

 

There are clearly many false statements being made on both sides of the fence...   so a balanced discussion is needed, as opposed to a one sided evangelical 'do as I say' approach.

 

Perhaps you should try to convince Graham rather than belittling him for his point of view and for not sharing your personal opinion on the matter??

30 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

I do not need to know Graham to know his statement on EV braking demonstrates a lack of knowledge on how EVs run ie by doing the vast majority of their braking using regen and not touching the brake pedal which even then can do some regen and only with severe braking actually actuates the vehicle's disc and or drum brakes which will turn the vehicle's kinetic energy, via friction in these discs/drum, in to thermal energy but in fact tend to covert somewhere approaching 90% of that kinetic energy back into electrical energy back in to the Traction battery.

 

My own background, to help with completeness as the trend is being set above is ex Department of Transport and also getting a science degree with specialising in thermodynamic dynamic.  Originally trained as a diesel engine Engineering Officer with the UK merchant navy, did a degree placement with Piper on engine tuning, including race engines.  Got a 2-1 with honours in my degree.  I actually own an EV, have done for nearly two years, driven over 12k miles in which time I have hardly done any use of the brake pedal, I have a dodgy left knee so like the one leg one pedal driving.  Also had around 50 diesel, petrol, petrol-hybrid cars over the last near 45 years plus numerous 4 and 2 stroke motorcycles.  

 

There are so many mis informed news items like about EV braking systems or how many EVs catch fire, which seem to be being perculated by several so called news platforms that need to be called out so we can save this world, as far as possible, for our children, which I have several, and want to see them have a good chance of enjoying this world rather than inheriting an environmental catastrophe as it is looking like if such inaccurate statements as allowed to persist and are not called out as propaganda, or ignorance on the subject, whichever or both.

 

Actually, without getting into an argument about anything, your assumption about my understanding of how EV braking is done is incorrect. Some EV cars actually mention One Pedal driving mode in their blurb but that in itself could be placing you in great danger as it has been demonstrated that on certain cars at least, such system does not operate your rear brake lights so anybody following behind you and paying close attention may not notice that you are slowing down until its too late, and you get rear ended (pun not intended 🙄) This because some EV cars still use a switch operated by the brake pedal to switch the lights on.  There is a video about this, and I'll try and dig it for you to have a look at, and the present has placed a series of cameras to make sure that the viewer can clearly see the dangers are not faked or clickbait etc. It might take a time to track this down 

7 minutes ago, skomaz said:

So surely you should be welcoming Graham's interrogation of the data and news items?

There are clearly many false statements being made on both sides of the fence...   so a balanced discussion is needed, as opposed to a one sided evangelical 'do as I say' approach.

Perhaps you should try to convince Graham rather than belittling him for his point of view and for not sharing your personal opinion on the matter??

 

Absolutely welcome the chance to put the record straight, that is a great part of BRISKODA which I have been a member for almost twenty years.

Correcting information is not discussion ie about EV braking. 

Graham does make a good point, or points about other pollution other than transport though.  As we relatively push down the pollution from Transport, not just CO2 but NOX and PMs, but this is only about a quarter of air pollution so the other sources of air pollution need to be tackled ie domestic and industrial pollution and even agricultural pollution lastly I suppose. 

The point about EV's not doing much of any brakes using brake pads or shoes is not a personal opinion but a fact of what EV driver and vehicles do and therefore is not part of debate but an element of education of to what actually occurs and I am always happy to spread the truth on that.  EVs may wear through tyres quickly, though EV makes seem to giulty sometimes of supply car with "EV" tyres with less tread on them, naughty naughty.  Some EVs use to use, and even still do but less so, use rare earth metals in both the batteries and the motors, thankfully this is rapidly being phased out.  EVs, 30 kW Nissan maybe excepted, look like they will have long service lifes, much against some rag publications and mis informed rumour mills.  Great to have a forum to correct these misunderstandings.