@lol-lol Wow, this was quick I managed to find that video I mention in the above post, have a look and tell your thoughts on this.

 

 

Just as a quick aside to these discussions, the worst areas in Sheffield for pollution are Arundel Gate and Sheaf Street - the former as it is a main bus thoroughfare (cars only allowed in one direction due to bus gates) and the latter due to proximity to the rail station and train lines.  I believe the same applies to Oxford Street in London that is bus only.

 

The M1 speed reduction for air quality mentioned in earlier posts was a trial to see whether it had an impact - the results are still awaited but data I have seen suggests the impact has been minimal.

 

As for the Sheffield CAZ it is quite clear from its geography and the business case that it was taken forward in preference to other options because of the money it would bring in through charges for the Local Authority - the business case shows huge dis-benefits associated with the scheme in multiple assessment criteria.

1 minute ago, skomaz said:

Just as a quick aside to these discussions, the worst areas in Sheffield for pollution are Arundel Gate and Sheaf Street - the former as it is a main bus thoroughfare (cars only allowed in one direction due to bus gates) and the latter due to proximity to the rail station and train lines.  I believe the same applies to Oxford Street in London that is bus only.

 

The M1 speed reduction for air quality mentioned in earlier posts was a trial to see whether it had an impact - the results are still awaited but data I have seen suggests the impact has been minimal.

 

As for the Sheffield CAZ it is quite clear from its geography and the business case that it was taken forward in preference to other options because of the money it would bring in through charges for the Local Authority - the business case shows huge dis-benefits associated with the scheme in multiple assessment criteria.

Have you checked to see if those locations are on the map I referred to?

 

On the broader picture of these CAZ schemes, I can see that these are perhaps more of a trojan horse and are the prelude to a full-blown road charging scheme nationwide and will be linked into a nationwide network so every journey you make will be tracked and the types of roads driven on and the time of day will attract differing rates. You may be aware that there are plans to do away with cash and only have a digital system, so this type of scheme would deduct the fees directly from your online account. There are many more similar low emissions zones coming, many in already in operation and even in Oxford car free zones as well.

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol Wow, this was quick I managed to find that video I mention in the above post, have a look and tell your thoughts on this.

 

 

 

Well he is wrong of course as it is not just "software" there should be a physical accelerometer or de-clerometer to bring on or flash the brake lights with any substantial decleration.

 

Again an issue that has come more to light with EVs and social media but it has been an issue with many vehicle ie motorcycles.  If I throttle off from 70 mph on my motorcycle as it has a aero drag coefficient of approaching 1, it decelerates very rapidly, do not think it flashes its brake lights, so not a new issue.

 

Trying to find a video which covers the 300k or so Zoes that have been made or the 300k plus LEAFs that have been made.  Does seem to be an issue with Hyundai/Kia if the number of videos are a measure.  Hybrids also have strong regen to.  Will have to go out on the weekend and test both the Zoe and the Clio ETECH we are picking up on Saturday.

Not an issue for the mild hybrid Arkana as that clearly only slows down slowly with aero friction, tyre hysterias and a bit of mechanical friction coasting to a stop with both clutches open and engine off in coasting mode hence I have to waste energy use the mechanical brakes and hence need to judge much  longer stopping distances if I aim to preserve energy. 

 

     

 

 

10 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Well he is wrong of course as it is not just "software" there should be a physical accelerometer or de-clerometer to bring on or flash the brake lights with any substantial decleration.

 

Incorrect, deceleration is simply derived by differentiation applied to the existing speed transducer output. In fact using an accelerometer would not work in a situation where the wheels have lost traction and speed is not being reduced when there is a demand to brake and reduce speed, also if the car is stood and brake applied, ie acceleration is zero.

 

Yep, I understand that, but in the case he showed, it wasn't working and the slowing down was reasonably fast. It would be far safer to forget one pedal driving and instead opt for a similar setup to my diesel car, i.e, if I lift my foot off the throttle, the car goes into "coasting" mode like your Arkana  so like you, I have to allow for longer stopping distances. But as soon as I touch the brake pedal, the car engages the transmission again to increase braking effect, now if EV cars did similar, touching the brake pedal would then activate the brake lights and engage regen braking without wasting energy on mechanical brakes unless you needed to stop sooner. 

In fact that would be a more beneficial system all round as it would allow for some sort of range extension by allowing you to coast whenever you get the opportunity to, then touching the brake pedal brings in reg braking, with brakes lights latched on, further pressure of the brake pedal brings in mechanical brakes as well and a touch of the throttle disengages brake lights and normal mode is operational, much safer then getting used to a one pedal drive and then for some reason, you have revert to a ICE car for a short spell you won't forget to use the brake pedal. 🤣 Thats a winner all round.

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

There are Stallantis EV,s that do not have the brake lights come on with regen braking because Type Approval did not require it as not deemed to be aggressive enough slowing down yet shifting it to B can slow the car as quick as touching the brake pedal.

 

The MINI electrics brake lights are just too quick to illuminate without much of a reduction in speed happening.

 

@9 min 10 seconds.

 

Harry says the tyre size on the Level 3 205/45 R 17's and later talks about just getting a level 1 on 17" wheels. So that is both cars on 17's.

Better just get either on 16" wheels which is a no cost option, and i think he maybe just drove the car as it was handed to him and maybe dropping the tyre pressures would have been an idea.

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by toot

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

coast whenever you get the opportunity to, then touching the brake pedal brings in reg braking, with brakes lights latched on, further pressure of the brake pedal brings in mechanical brakes as well. 🤣

 

That is slmost what my swift hybrid seems to do...   Lift off and you get a bit of engine and low level regen braking, touch the brake pedal and the lights come on with a higher level of regen braking, press harder and the mechanical braking kicks in too.

I blame the hysterical tyres!

10 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

That is slmost what my swift hybrid seems to do...   Lift off and you get a bit of engine and low level regen braking, touch the brake pedal and the lights come on with a higher level of regen braking, press harder and the mechanical braking kicks in too.

Now I think about it a bit more, it's making me wonder happens with the adaptive cruise control, will it also bring on the brake lights if someone does something in front of you so it slows down really rapidly, will the brake lights come on to alert those behind?

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Now I think about it a bit more, it's making me wonder happens with the adaptive cruise control, will it also bring on the brake lights if someone does something in front of you so it slows down really rapidly, will the brake lights come on to alert those behind?

 

Oooh. Not sure.  The Swift has that too but i can't say ive ever checked or ever had someone following me i knew who could check either...

3 hours ago, skomaz said:

Just as a quick aside to these discussions, the worst areas in Sheffield for pollution are Arundel Gate and Sheaf Street - the former as it is a main bus thoroughfare (cars only allowed in one direction due to bus gates) and the latter due to proximity to the rail station and train lines.  I believe the same applies to Oxford Street in London that is bus only.

 

The M1 speed reduction for air quality mentioned in earlier posts was a trial to see whether it had an impact - the results are still awaited but data I have seen suggests the impact has been minimal.

 

As for the Sheffield CAZ it is quite clear from its geography and the business case that it was taken forward in preference to other options because of the money it would bring in through charges for the Local Authority - the business case shows huge dis-benefits associated with the scheme in multiple assessment criteria.

I just checked both of those streets you mentioned and surprise, there is no official air monitoring station near there at all. The nearest one is in the middle of Devonshire Green, like a small park? Who told you that they were the worst areas?

29 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Now I think about it a bit more, it's making me wonder happens with the adaptive cruise control, will it also bring on the brake lights if someone does something in front of you so it slows down really rapidly, will the brake lights come on to alert those behind?

I believe the brake lights do come on when ACC applies brakes to reduce speed. At least they do on my Superb.

1 minute ago, xman said:

I believe the brake lights do come on when ACC applies brakes to reduce speed. At least they do on my Superb.

I'll have to try and find out if mine do as well, I'd hate to have someone run into me when that happens, so many clowns these days enjoy sitting right in your slipstream.

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

As to the air quality at the location you mentioned, have a look at the attached screen prints taken this afternoon just after I ready reply, the actually air monitoring station is not at the retail park (which ps Frien Park Retail Estate but is located outside Bowes Primary School on the North Circular Road, which is about a mile away to the east of the retail park. The other one on the NCR is outside Ikea at Wembley which I attach a screen grab of at the same time, both of these readings are within safety zone which is below 50 so the first one reads just 3 and the Ikea one reads just 38. Hence why I doubt anything a politician tells me as they generally have another motive, and in this it rather looks that is the case, do you agree 😉

Today had storm warning, high wind and rain. Of course air quality is very good.

The Bowes primary school side is also regularly congested, good data point. The Ikea Wembley junction is also a very congestion point.

 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Actually, without getting into an argument about anything, your assumption about my understanding of how EV braking is done is incorrect. Some EV cars actually mention One Pedal driving mode in their blurb but that in itself could be placing you in great danger as it has been demonstrated that on certain cars at least, such system does not operate your rear brake lights so anybody following behind you and paying close attention may not notice that you are slowing down until its too late, and you get rear ended (pun not intended 🙄) This because some EV cars still use a switch operated by the brake pedal to switch the lights on.  There is a video about this, and I'll try and dig it for you to have a look at, and the present has placed a series of cameras to make sure that the viewer can clearly see the dangers are not faked or clickbait etc. It might take a time to track this down 

The video in question, as you've link and you've mentioned, clearly stated it is a design problem by that particular manufacturer, not an overarching EV problem.

 

Generally, I find Korean cars are great until you get into details. My test drive I found they don't blend in regen braking when disabling cruise control, the moment cancel is pressed, full regen braking. Combine with the brake light issue, feels like they are not test driving their cars enough.

 

It's a problem in early Leaf 24 I have, but Leaf has accelerometer to never brake more than 0.2g. It's not a problem in my Model Y, the display shows the car and brake lights, I can see anytime I expect the brake light to be on, it is on.

  

40 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Now I think about it a bit more, it's making me wonder happens with the adaptive cruise control, will it also bring on the brake lights if someone does something in front of you so it slows down really rapidly, will the brake lights come on to alert those behind?

In my previous 2013 Skoda Octavia, I can feel the brake pedal moves from under my foot, so yes, brake lights will turn on.

In my 2022 Model Y, behaves same, it applies one-pedal driving logic for the light and also use physical brakes when needed. Brake pedal is mechanically linked to the brake system, so pedal also moves when higher stopping force is requested.

 

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

Incorrect, deceleration is simply derived by differentiation applied to the existing speed transducer output. In fact using an accelerometer would not work in a situation where the wheels have lost traction and speed is not being reduced when there is a demand to brake and reduce speed, also if the car is stood and brake applied, ie acceleration is zero.

 

There is regulation talking about deceleration amount and when brake light should be lit. It's referenced in the video. This is why accelerometer are being suggested. But I think software logic in combination with ABS sensor should be able to mimic everything.

 

In the first bold part, if speed is not being reduced, then brake light not lit. Therefore brake light driven by accelerometer is okay.

In the second bold part, simple software logic for 1-pedal driving can be used to turn on brake lights.

 

  

 

 

 

Quick about me, I'm a chartered principal electronic engineer. Not working in the energy/transport sector so no vested interest. I would like to move into energy/EV/autonomous vehicle sector, but haven't found a suitably located job yet as I don't desire to move, nor have I looked beyond head hunter messages.

Loved idea of Nissan Leaf in 2010. I had solar panel installed just out of pure interest in 2015. Started driving EV in 2017 with Leaf 24. Getting vehicle-2-home for the 9 years old first-gen Leaf soon. Before then, I'm charging my Tesla using excess roof top solar generation with a little bit of coding.

52 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I just checked both of those streets you mentioned and surprise, there is no official air monitoring station near there at all. The nearest one is in the middle of Devonshire Green, like a small park? Who told you that they were the worst areas?

 

It's been reported a number of times in the local press but through my work I've also seen local monitoring and AQ modelling data. 

 

To keep up the 'about me' I'm a Chartered Civil Engineer with a general engineering Masters from Cambridge University.  I have over 33 years experience of the design and construction of projects ranging from flood defences, water supply and drainage schemes to concrete and steel structures but mostly in highway design and construction, transport planning and environmental impact assessments. 

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by skomaz

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Today had storm warning, high wind and rain. Of course air quality is very good.

The Bowes primary school side is also regularly congested, good data point. The Ikea Wembley junction is also a very congestion point.

 

The video in question, as you've link and you've mentioned, clearly stated it is a design problem by that particular manufacturer, not an overarching EV problem.

 

Generally, I find Korean cars are great until you get into details. My test drive I found they don't blend in regen braking when disabling cruise control, the moment cancel is pressed, full regen braking. Combine with the brake light issue, feels like they are not test driving their cars enough.

 

It's a problem in early Leaf 24 I have, but Leaf has accelerometer to never brake more than 0.2g. It's not a problem in my Model Y, the display shows the car and brake lights, I can see anytime I expect the brake light to be on, it is on.

Well, here is my problem with the ULEZ scheme and its expansion (it does not affect me as my car is fully complaint), so I'm not trying to denounce it because I'm a skinflint etc, its because I believe I can see though the wool that it hides. I look behind the door so to speak to if there is a hidden agenda and the last few years with our current crop of politicians, I've not been disappointed so far.  Now then it might surprise you but that AQI map also can I understand provide a 12 month rolling history of each sites readings on a number of parameters, which I think is behind a paywall, but what is for there free reveals that the air quality is pretty consistent and is generally well within the green safe zone across London as a whole. That suggests that we are not being told the whole truth and nothing but the truth, by the mayor.

 

Now there are a few locations in London and also in other parts of the country that do often read slightly higher but upon further investigation it can be seen that the monitoring equipment has been poorly sited, i.e., close to extractors etc from commercial kitchens, close to underground stations or underground vents, large heavy industrial sites like Tata Steel works etc where you would expect the air to be bad. So that is why I'm dubious about the whole ULEZ and other schemes that are already in operation and more are planned. 

 

With regard to the brake light on that Korean car, yes it might well be a problem for that particular brand, but are we/you positive of that? Aren't all cars supposed to follow a rigid code and standards to ensure compliance with the regulations for the markets that they are selling cars to? Well that particular car got through all the approvals stages somehow and still didn't comply with them and was and maybe still is, a major potential problem for some unsuspecting driver?

 

Your Tesla seems to have that aspect addressed, and maybe is something that others should look at regardless of their power plants, ACC is still being controlled by software.

 

Edited 2 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

In the first bold part, if speed is not being reduced, then brake light not lit. Therefore brake light driven by accelerometer is okay.

 

No its not ok.

 

As a design engineer you should  appreciate that accelerometers are affected by inclination (due to gravity) and rotation so simply can not be applied as you describe in a car without the assistance of a 3 axis gyroscope and some nifty software.

 

Simpler and more accurate to measure speed directly and derive acceleration from that.

 

In any case, if your wheels are locked up or skidding, or you are travelling down a hill, towards a corner, illuminated brake lights convey important information to following traffic even before any significant reduction in your speed occurs.

5 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

Impressive stuff. 

I realise it's a little OT but seeing as you mentioned your credentials maybe you can answer why England is pumping **** into the rivers and seas? Aren't your designs working? 

 

 

And a totally unnecessary jibe at me as usual...

 

For your info drainage is different to sewage treatment.  Ive done drainage, not sewage treatment and discharge.

6 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

Impressive stuff. 

I realise it's a little OT but seeing as you mentioned your credentials maybe you can answer why England is pumping **** into the rivers and seas? Aren't your designs working? 

 

Ouch surely your not suggesting that it is a design fault, rather than being done to save to money treating it correctly or whatever. I mean that if you think about it, it wasn't a thing until we pulled out of the EU, so it suggests that the two are linked in some way. 

22 hours ago, skomaz said:

Just as a quick aside to these discussions, the worst areas in Sheffield for pollution are Arundel Gate and Sheaf Street - the former as it is a main bus thoroughfare (cars only allowed in one direction due to bus gates) and the latter due to proximity to the rail station and train lines.  I believe the same applies to Oxford Street in London that is bus only.

 

 

Most of the Arundel Gate pollution was caused by me driving around in circles for ages, trying to find my way through the roadworks, one way systems etc in order to find the Q Park on Charles street. Ruddy nightmare if you follow your nose or a satnav.

1 hour ago, Lady Elanore said:

 

Most of the Arundel Gate pollution was caused by me driving around in circles for ages, trying to find my way through the roadworks, one way systems etc in order to find the Q Park on Charles street. Ruddy nightmare if you follow your nose or a satnav.

 

You have my sympathy!!!   I'm a born and bred Sheffielder and work in the city centre but still struggle to get to some locations given the mess the LA have made of the roads...   Hope you didn't get fined (I assume the M-car is compliant?).

Edited 3 August, 20232 yr by skomaz

20 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

It's been reported a number of times in the local press but through my work I've also seen local monitoring and AQ modelling data. 

 

To keep up the 'about me' I'm a Chartered Civil Engineer with a general engineering Masters from Cambridge University.  I have over 33 years experience of the design and construction of projects ranging from flood defences, water supply and drainage schemes to concrete and steel structures but mostly in highway design and construction, transport planning and environmental impact assessments. 

 

Don't understand why your Masters is an Arts Masters degree rather than a Science Master degree, why is that ?

 

Do you think the UK is going to need to add the sort of storm solutions ie ability to shift massive amounts of rainfall from tropical storm events it is looking like the UK is increasingly starting to experience as Climate change becomes increasingly severe  ????   Is it even possible, at any sort of do-able expense to convert our old construction type of most cities to cope with such biblical tropical rain storms ??

 

Like LA River with it storm capacity.........

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=space+shuttle+landing+in+LA+storm+channel&source=lmns&tbm=vid&bih=572&biw=1229&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB942GB942&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiU-OfjgsGAAxVnnCcCHSAwAQwQ0pQJKAN6BAgBEAg&safe=active&ssui=on#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:4798031e,vid:r4G6H0C7aYw

 

  

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

Don't understand why your Masters is an Arts Masters degree rather than a Science Master degree, why is that ?

 

Do you think the UK is going to need to add the sort of storm solutions ie ability to shift massive amounts of rainfall from tropical storm events it is looking like the UK is increasingly starting to experience as Climate change becomes increasingly severe  ????   Is it even possible, at any sort of do-able expense to convert our old construction type of most cities to cope with such biblical tropical rain storms ??

 

Like LA River with it storm capacity.........

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=space+shuttle+landing+in+LA+storm+channel&source=lmns&tbm=vid&bih=572&biw=1229&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB942GB942&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiU-OfjgsGAAxVnnCcCHSAwAQwQ0pQJKAN6BAgBEAg&safe=active&ssui=on#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:4798031e,vid:r4G6H0C7aYw

 

  

In order ..

 

All Cantab degrees used to be classed as BA or MA.

 

No

 

Yes but expensive

 

And finally thats all a bit off topic.

21 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well, here is my problem with the ULEZ scheme and its expansion (it does not affect me as my car is fully complaint), so I'm not trying to denounce it because I'm a skinflint etc, its because I believe I can see though the wool that it hides. I look behind the door so to speak to if there is a hidden agenda and the last few years with our current crop of politicians, I've not been disappointed so far.  Now then it might surprise you but that AQI map also can I understand provide a 12 month rolling history of each sites readings on a number of parameters, which I think is behind a paywall, but what is for there free reveals that the air quality is pretty consistent and is generally well within the green safe zone across London as a whole. That suggests that we are not being told the whole truth and nothing but the truth, by the mayor.

Air quality is part of the reason for ULEZ. It is never the sole reason, sorry you feel you were misled. The government have 2 methods of pushing for change in general public: a carrot and a stick. The ULEZ scheme is the latter. 
 

21 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Aren't all cars supposed to follow a rigid code and standards to ensure compliance with the regulations for the markets that they are selling cars to? Well that particular car got through all the approvals stages somehow and still didn't comply with them and was and maybe still is, a major potential problem for some unsuspecting driver?

The video you’ve linked answered your question: regulation is not following fast enough. 

 

20 hours ago, xman said:

 

In any case, if your wheels are locked up or skidding, or you are travelling down a hill, towards a corner, illuminated brake lights convey important information to following traffic even before any significant reduction in your speed occurs.

Very good point. 
 

The accelerometer is mentioned because regulation stipulate rate of deceleration in g’s. I’m sure well designed cars have more than an accelerometer for brake light logic.