19 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Just as well we (in the UK) haven't got a (mass)  car industry that would be adversely impacted by trying (and failing)  to hit the artificial targets set by the Government in regards to zero emission  vehicles (not Electric Vehicles).......................................

 

Does it apply to imports as well as manufacturer, these sorts of laws normally include both home production and mass imports ?

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I actually cannot see how a MHEV can be beneficial, they are not capable of being driven for any distance whatsoever under battery power, the motive power always comes from the ICE part of the car. The only advantage that a MHEV can offer is that can allow for increases use of stop/start system when the car is stationary in traffic as the special generator/starter can send 12V from the generator to a Lithium-ion battery when regen is employed to allow the Lithium-ion battery to power the starter rather than the normal LA battery, thus the S/S system is more likely to kick more often than the S/S on a normal ICE car. 

 

Stop/Start system only normally come into their own in city traffic, so on a decent run, such as I did today, Chelmsford to Old Warden Airfield, the car was not stationary once until I arrived and parked up, thus if my car was a MEHV, today it would have been no better than a pure ICE. In reality, for the most part they are ICE  and only help slightly in city traffic with loads of time spend stationary.

 

All your questions answered

HOW IS A MILD HYBRID DIFFERENT TO A STANDARD OR PLUG-IN HYBRID?

 

CAN A MILD HYBRID VEHICLE DRIVE ON ELECTRIC POWER ONLY?

No. The power to move the vehicle comes from the internal combustion engine.

 

WHAT ARE THE COMPONENTS IN A MILD HYBRID POWERTRAIN AND HOW DO THEY WORK?

Nissan's Mild Hybrid powertrain consists of a 12v Lithium-Ion battery to provide additional power while the engine is stopped. This is connected to a Belt Driven Starter Generator, allowing for two way power transfer between the engine and battery.

As a result the frequency of the start/stop system is improved, engine stop durations are longer and the ability to stop the engine before the vehicle comes to a complete stop (Xtronic only).

 

WHAT IS THE WARRANTY PERIOD FOR THE MILD HYBRID COMPONENTS?

 

No, no, no.

In my long distance driving the MHEV, and same with HEV to quite a degree, is coasting along, usually on a slight or fairly steepish downhills the car shuts down the ICE and uses the extra lithium battery to power the cars electrical system.  It has gained this energy but providing extra deceleration, alternator acting as a generator to top up the 12v hybrid battery.

 

Energy for start/stop, which is handled by the led acid battery manages as a normal pue petrol/diesel with start stop I reckon.

Might only be a few percent of a journeys is with no ICE running but it really seems to add a few mpg to the car which is very welcome.

What seems to be quite pronounced is how much better the whole system works in warm weather rather than cold weather ie about 10 mpg difference.  

ICE burn some fuel even when ticking over of course.  MHEV is turning the ICE off for only 5 seconds sometimes but on other times it seems like half a minute or even over a minute.   

16 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Does it apply to imports as well as manufacturer, these sorts of laws normally include both home production and mass imports ?

Of course it does but it will be German Japanese Chinese French etc manufacturers paying the fines for not hitting targets not out glorious British car industry

39 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

No, no, no.

In my long distance driving the MHEV, and same with HEV to quite a degree, is coasting along, usually on a slight or fairly steepish downhills the car shuts down the ICE and uses the extra lithium battery to power the cars electrical system.  It has gained this energy but providing extra deceleration, alternator acting as a generator to top up the 12v hybrid battery.

 

Energy for start/stop, which is handled by the led acid battery manages as a normal pue petrol/diesel with start stop I reckon.

Might only be a few percent of a journeys is with no ICE running but it really seems to add a few mpg to the car which is very welcome.

What seems to be quite pronounced is how much better the whole system works in warm weather rather than cold weather ie about 10 mpg difference.  

ICE burn some fuel even when ticking over of course.  MHEV is turning the ICE off for only 5 seconds sometimes but on other times it seems like half a minute or even over a minute.   

Erm, No, no, no, maybe your Arkana does that, but not all MHEV's do. I had a Nissan Qashqai MHEV for 2 months and that never did, and in fact the extract that I posted was copied and pasted direct from the latest Qashqai makers website, here is the link Mild Hybrid | Mild Hybrid Car | Nissan

 

If your Arkana is coasting, surely as a MHEV it should, once your foot has been lifted from the throttle pedal, be going into regen mode, which is counter productive to coasting. My car when it into coast mode, sets the engine at idle and disconnects the transmission so the car is proper coasting with the engine providing the power for braking (powering the vacuum servo), the instant I touch the brake pedal, the transmission is re-engaged and the car does engine braking / regen, albeit milder. If the mode is in any other mode than "ECO", then regen/engine braking is far more aggressive in its application and the car no longer coasts, foot off the gas, the car goes into engine/regen mode.

 

However, I think the full hybrid Arkana does what you describe, but apparently the MHEV. There has to be some difference / advantages between the two systems?

Edited 12 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Erm, No, no, no, maybe your Arkana does that, but not all MHEV's do. I had a Nissan Qashqai for 2 months and that never did, and in fact the extract that I posted was copied and pasted direct from the latest Qashqai makers website, here is the link Mild Hybrid | Mild Hybrid Car | Nissan

 

Renault make Hevs. The arkana is available as a non plug in that can move on Battery power only for short distances. Think Kia do it too with the Niro.

 

The smmt data is confusing because it doesn't list them separately. Lumps MHEV and HEV together.

 

The development of this Technology has been curtailed by Governments insistance on BEV only in 2035

 

MR Toyoda is most upset

Edited 12 May, 20242 yr by Stonekeeper

1 minute ago, Winston_Woof said:

Of course it does but it will be German Japanese Chinese French etc manufacturers paying the fines for not hitting targets not out glorious Britis

 

1 minute ago, Winston_Woof said:

Of course it does but it will be German Japanese Chinese French etc manufacturers paying the fines for not hitting targets not out glorious British car industry

 

Not sure that is right.  UK public seem quite unaware of laws that are coming in and UK continues to be largely aligned with the EU as I think the UK-EU Trade Cooperation Agreement would be dissolved if we were not, which allows European ie UK and EU originating goods to be imported with no customs duty hit.

 

EU is bringing in CBAM, Cabron Border Adjustment Mechanism and UK will bing is basically a copy of this.  BEV will be hit by this, French have been working hard on lowering carbon hot on much of their goods.

 

Eliminating carbon, whether it is in fuel or goods, is a juggernaut on a worldwide scale and we are only just stating this journey.

 

Whether some car companies will get anything like £15K to transfer a BEV credit to those ca companies who are under the 22% threshold, I suppose that would spread across four ICE cars which are hit for these types of vehicles.  One can imagine a reluctance for ca companies to even sell ICE cars unless they are making a very good margin.  Expensive sports cars and luxury car makes are probably OK despite this, lower end of the market. Perhaps see more movements of lower end of the car markets moving to cheap labour countries who also get zero import tariffs to the EU and UK.  Already happens a lot for cars and motorbikes. Company I work for now moves more cars around the worked than anyone I gather, just finding more about it as we get absorbed we get absorbed by the super massive French conglomerate.

 

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

 

Not sure that is right.  UK public seem quite unaware of laws that are coming in and UK continues to be largely aligned with the EU as I think the UK-EU Trade Cooperation Agreement would be dissolved if we were not, which allows European ie UK and EU originating goods to be imported with no customs duty hit.

 

EU is bringing in CBAM, Cabron Border Adjustment Mechanism and UK will bing is basically a copy of this.  BEV will be hit by this, French have been working hard on lowering carbon hot on much of their goods.

 

Eliminating carbon, whether it is in fuel or goods, is a juggernaut on a worldwide scale and we are only just stating this journey.

 

Whether some car companies will get anything like £15K to transfer a BEV credit to those ca companies who are under the 22% threshold, I suppose that would spread across four ICE cars which are hit for these types of vehicles.  One can imagine a reluctance for ca companies to even sell ICE cars unless they are making a very good margin.  Expensive sports cars and luxury car makes are probably OK despite this, lower end of the market. Perhaps see more movements of lower end of the car markets moving to cheap labour countries who also get zero import tariffs to the EU and UK.  Already happens a lot for cars and motorbikes. Company I work for now moves more cars around the worked than anyone I gather, just finding more about it as we get absorbed we get absorbed by the super massive French conglomerate.

 

cheese & rice , can you not tell when the mickey is being taken or is that soap box so far inside of you

 

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Erm, No, no, no, maybe your Arkana does that, but not all MHEV's do. I had a Nissan Qashqai for 2 months and that never did, and in fact the extract that I posted was copied and pasted direct from the latest Qashqai makers website, here is the link Mild Hybrid | Mild Hybrid Car | Nissan

 

If you are "coasting" then some battery has to be powering the electric power steering, lights etc, Arkana choose the lithium battery I gather but both lead acid and lithium are working fairly closely.

 

Clio e-tech has a level of charge just like the fuel gauge, Arkana has nothing but then its battery is a sixth the size of Clio etechs, the big D segment Austal has a 2 kwH and there are European versions the UK does not get which has about a 10 kWh that has a PHEV port to charge it with.  Not sure why it was decided not to bother to import to the UK.  The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV seemed quite popular even with its pathetic sub 30 mile range.

 

 Nissan is a sister company to Renault of course and share quite a bit of tech.  Mitsubishi (Motors) was bought by Renault-Nissan many years ago, might have been during an emissions scandal and they were cheap to pickup. The Qashqai did not get all the tricks the Arkana did and now they have gone there own way with this electric drive setup.  If made in UK hope it sells OK for the UK plant sake, have not seen any real MPG figures which will be interesting.      

 

If it wasn't for the Government setting artificial sales target to try & meet spurious emission requirements then we may have seen some mass market PHEVs,HEVS & MHEVs  hell we might even have seen some High end luxury sports BEVs but we wouldn't be hurtling towards the kluster**** we are now with people offsetting or what not  because of those artificial government targets, regardless of which government!!

The way its going the only car manufacturers that are left will be the  new Chinese ones  cos they aint making ICE cars so will always hit 100% ZEV sales

Next trick from the government will be to increase the fuel duty on diesel and petrol to make EVs appear cheaper to run

3 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

cheese & rice , can you not tell when the mickey is being taken or is that soap box so far inside of you

 

 

Bit more than a soap box for me as customs is what I do. Been a while dealing with cars, more in to aerospace and other verticals.  SO many new customs procedures, sanitary and photosanitary, seal, cat, dog, weapons of torture and soon to be carbon I am beginning to think the devil is in charge as in bedazzled....

 

"Everything I have told you is a lie, even that is a lie" 

 

     

15 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Next trick from the government will be to increase the fuel duty on diesel and petrol to make EVs appear cheaper to run

 

Been quiet about a Fuel Price Escalator for many a year.   

 

Fuel Duty has not kept pace with inflation or even close to it.

 

Electricity should get cheaper and cheaper, particularly in the summer and with more North Sea wind coming on line but I expect in winters it will get more expensive and then drop each time for summer as seems to be happen with the UK energy price cap. Q3 2024 looking cheaper but to bounce back in the winter.  Of peak tariff of more interest to some of us.

 

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/17859750/

 

 

  

Edited 12 May, 20242 yr by lol-lol

24 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

If you are "coasting" then some battery has to be powering the electric power steering, lights etc, Arkana choose the lithium battery I gather but both lead acid and lithium are working fairly closely.

 

Agreed, but if you explore the link I posted to Renault Arkana MHEV, you will see a completely different mode of operating to what you say yours does. The MHEV does even exist in the 2024 model line up, only offers E-Tech full hybrid. Renault Arkana E-Tech full hybrid - 5-seater sport SUV seems to describe how yours is behaving, looking very much like a full hybrid. You'll need to scroll down a few pages and you will find an animated graphic with the power coming from either the battery to the motor, or from the ICE to the battery and then to the motor.

Edited 12 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

52 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Renault make Hevs. The arkana is available as a non plug in that can move on Battery power only for short distances. Think Kia do it too with the Niro.

 

The smmt data is confusing because it doesn't list them separately. Lumps MHEV and HEV together.

 

The development of this Technology has been curtailed by Governments insistance on BEV only in 2035

 

MR Toyoda is most upset

The Qashqai MEHV according to Nissan is incapable of moving on battery power, the confirmation is right there in the link I provided, where it states in a page of FQA style questions/answers it states 

"CAN A MILD HYBRID VEHICLE DRIVE ON ELECTRIC POWER ONLY?

No. The power to move the vehicle comes from the internal combustion engine."

 

So if Nissan can't then I fail to see how a Renault or Kia can, can you provide any supporting information on this aspect at all?

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Agreed, but if you explore the link I posted to Renault Arkana MHEV, you will see a completely different mode of operating to what you say yours does. The MHEV does even exist in the 2024 model line up, only offers E-Tech full hybrid. Renault Arkana E-Tech full hybrid - 5-seater sport SUV seems to describe how yours is behaving, looking very much like a full hybrid. You'll need to scroll down a few pages and you will find an animated graphic with the power coming from either the battery to the motor, or from the ICE to the battery and then to the motor.

 

Indeed Renault have stopped advertising the MHEV as its CO2, about 130 gm/km is just too high and Renault will get knobbled for being way above the average 95 gm per Km average it must adhere to our get fined.

 

The Full hybrid Arkana uses the same sub 100 hp naturally aspirated 1.6 litre engine with the two electric motors that can add 250 Nm of torque to propulsion.

The set up is exactly the same as we have in the Clio etech but the Akana weighs quite a bit more. The MHEV Arkana is much more spritely, better acceleration and if one uses it mainly for motorways and not town driving, as I do, good MPG can be achieved from the MHEV so particularly as I have the Zoe the MHEV Akana seemed the right car to be my long distance vehicle.

 

Renault continue with the 1.6 litre naturally aspirated engine linked to the electric motor with it being used in the new Symbioz and Capture as well as the Arkana, all in the C sector.  In the D sector Renault have a 1.2 turbo engine mated to a 2 kWh lithium ion battery.  Renault HQ asked me to test this in the Austral at my local dealer.  Better engine etc setup for the bigger ie heavier car but ore expensive to built in to the car. 

 

Renault will hope it sells lots of Megane-e and Scenic BEVs to meet its 22% threshold but I suspect there will be some mega deal on these cars come fall.  They could introduce variants we do not get in the UK ie the 100 kW engines and 40 KWh batteries fo the Megane-e which could boost BEV sales. So I can see the Zoe going for a Megane-e later this yea and the Arkana going for a Rafela, same platform as the Austral next year.  Breezing along at 70 mph, or even low 80s in non UK roads in EV mode is what it can do, big car, averaging over 60 mpg, 200 hp, 300 hp if one goes for the other available version is where I plan to be but if BEVs continue appearing in 400 miles plus range and te running costs ICE to BEV continues to widen maybe it will be a BEV, model 3 or Y. 

           

Edited 13 May, 20242 yr by lol-lol

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The Qashqai MEHV according to Nissan is incapable of moving on battery power, the confirmation is right there in the link I provided, where it states in a page of FQA style questions/answers it states 

"CAN A MILD HYBRID VEHICLE DRIVE ON ELECTRIC POWER ONLY?

No. The power to move the vehicle comes from the internal combustion engine."

 

So if Nissan can't then I fail to see how a Renault or Kia can, can you provide any supporting information on this aspect at all?

 

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

Yes this 1.6 litre naturally aspirated engine linked to a quite small ie 1.2 kWh traction battery does well in urban environment. Nearly 40% of distance in pure EV mode fuel consumption around 55 mpg in quite good, not great, I have seen the Clio with the same engine get much better ie around 80 mpg.

 

What put me off the Arkana etech was Top Gear did sub £40k family car comparison test and in the acceleration the Arkana e-ech was last I think, beaten even by a Berlingo.

The 0-62 for the Arkana etech is about 11 seconds compared to 9 seconds for my 1.3 MHEV , put it in manual and use paddles to go though the 7 gears, though I think one would only need the lower 3 to hit 62 mph, it will do over 100 in any of the top 4 gears.  Happy with it, only £25K new does pretty much everything well, just glad I do not have to pay full price for fuel in it because if I did it will probably go.

 

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

This only confirms what Nissan are saying, cannot MHEV cannot drive on pure electric only, the Arkana in the video can and does drive in pure electric mode purely because it is a full hybrid, not a mild hybrid and that is clearly stated in the video right at the start.

11 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

Whilst new cars have been in short supply they have been able to get away with the notion that you can buy half a car, paying over four years then expect someone else to buy the other half.

 

A couple of years down the line from Covid and I am still in shock at the price of second hand vehicles especially here in France where there never was the same level of depreciation as the UK and people hold on to their new and second hand cars far longer due to the registration taxes.

 

If the bubble does not burst and we don't get back to the days when the market was flooded with 3 or 4 year old cars with 25-35k miles per year selling for £3-4K then if my car gets written off I will have to pay 3 or 4 times the price I did for it 4 years ago to get a similar vehicle but 4 years older (than it was when I bought) with double the mileage, I would seriously consider fully comp insurance but for what I read about the even more dramatic cost of insurance repairs and rising premiums.

 

Surely the madness has to stop and there will be a massive correction?

 

11 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

We still have many cars on the road pre 2014 are the new Cars not that good. Or are Cars going to have to be Reborn after ten years because of the powertrain.

 

The powertrain of EV's should last a lifetime compared to ICE vehicles if they moved to independant motors on each driven wheel.

19 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Yes this 1.6 litre naturally aspirated engine linked to a quite small ie 1.2 kWh traction battery does well in urban environment. Nearly 40% of distance in pure EV mode fuel consumption around 55 mpg in quite good, not great, I have seen the Clio with the same engine get much better ie around 80 mpg.

 

What put me off the Arkana etech was Top Gear did sub £40k family car comparison test and in the acceleration the Arkana e-ech was last I think, beaten even by a Berlingo.

The 0-62 for the Arkana etech is about 11 seconds compared to 9 seconds for my 1.3 MHEV , put it in manual and use paddles to go though the 7 gears, though I think one would only need the lower 3 to hit 62 mph, it will do over 100 in any of the top 4 gears.  Happy with it, only £25K new does pretty much everything well, just glad I do not have to pay full price for fuel in it because if I did it will probably go.

 

That 80mpg figure is really only achievable when doing city type of driving, take it on a motorway type of road, say the M4 from the junction of the M25 to the junction with the M5, approx 100miles, on a day when the traffic is flowing freely and you're able to do motorway speeds of 60-70mph and you will not be able to that 80mpg, that is only achievable under the right conditions.

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Indeed Renault have stopped advertising the MHEV as its CO2, about 130 gm/km is just too high and Renault will get knobbled for being way above the average 95 gm per Km average it must adhere to our get fined.

          

WTF, even my 2 litre diesel only emits 119 gm/km and you're only talking of 1.6 litre engine.

^^^ That is the figure they came up with for the NEDC but it would never have got Certificated at that for the WLTP / RDE2. 

& even those are not the real world emissions.

56 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

WTF, even my 2 litre diesel only emits 119 gm/km and you're only talking of 1.6 litre engine.

 

Not sure it is the same method of measurement compared to last decade.  119 sounds like VAG got it just under the 120 gm and all know now what a bunch of cheats VAG were then.

 

As I said before we are less worried these days about CO2 than NOX and PMs.

 

On cold rainy days diesel cars which do not get their Cat up to temperature are pumping out pollutants several times highervthan their lab figures. Renault diesels too sadly.  

 

Petrol cars get their engines up to temperature quicker as we know. Oddly start stop does not really help keep the cat up to temperature of course.

 

EV emission analysis typically use grid power mix averaged per kWh emission figure, which includes generation. For renewables it is non zero because the figure averages manufacturing and installation across usable lifetime.

 

I wonder if those petrol/diesel emission figures include extraction, refining and transportation of the fuel...... ? If not, why not?

 

 

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The Qashqai MEHV according to Nissan is incapable of moving on battery power, the confirmation is right there in the link I provided, where it states in a page of FQA style questions/answers it states 

"CAN A MILD HYBRID VEHICLE DRIVE ON ELECTRIC POWER ONLY?

No. The power to move the vehicle comes from the internal combustion engine."

 

So if Nissan can't then I fail to see how a Renault or Kia can, can you provide any supporting information on this aspect at all?

Regarding MHEV driving on electric power. It can move short distance at low speed on electric. That's how they get better fuel economy than pure ICE vehicles and that's why all new vehicles really should have this magical addon to help reduce fuel consumption.

 

The manufacturer's response is actually saying where the power comes from. 100% of it comes from ICE burning fossil fuel. It is not saying the vehicle is incapable of moving on battery power.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

That 80mpg figure is really only achievable when doing city type of driving, take it on a motorway type of road, say the M4 from the junction of the M25 to the junction with the M5, approx 100miles, on a day when the traffic is flowing freely and you're able to do motorway speeds of 60-70mph and you will not be able to that 80mpg, that is only achievable under the right conditions.

 

my lad filled up Saturday night, drove the Hawthorns and back, mainly motorway but some 50 mph zones as they are putting in lots of laybys they should have put in the first place of the Smart motorway, 75 mpg showing.  perfect weather ie about 20 C and dry.  In winter probably looking like about 60 mpg.  Still quite good though.