15 hours ago, Ootohere said:

I can imagine the 'Lifestyle users' are going to be more inclined to a transporter with track car or boat / jet ski or maybe a horse box...(pony)

more than a caravan / trailer tent.

(The 50 mph limit in the UK towing on single carriageways will help with range.) 

 

2.5 - 2.6 miles a kWh solo. says a lot Real World, UK NSL,s.

 

100kWh battery or 95 kWh usable.

If it has a 330 mile range that is just under 3.5 miles a kWh efficiency.

95 kWh & 2.6 miles a kWh is 247 miles, using all the battery.

 

I watched that and Harry Stated that when towing he was down to  something like 1.2kwh when towing or around 100 miles range. That's a ridiculous drop in range from its 300-330 range. Yes I get ICE vehicles see increased consumption when towing but to the same extent??

Also problems with charging po9ints  when towing were highlighted.

Unlike a Petrol pump where you draw up alongside it (admittedly you may block a second pump for 5 minutes for so as you refuel) the majority of EV charging points appear to be set up for Nose/Tail in charging, his conclusion was that you pretty much need to decouple the trailer/caravan whatever  in order to charge without being a knob (my word not his) and blocking everything off.

300-330 miles from a 95 kWh battery is pretty ridiculous, 3.5 miles a kWh.

But only getting 2.6 miles a kWh solo in not very cold conditions on UK roads is just 247 miles.

 

Those towing and using EV,s do not to gather knowledge and experience and use the chargers now going in suitable for long vehicles, vans and cars towing.  They are growing in numbers. Or it is a case of needing to unhitch and secure the trailer or whatever towed.  Within sight most likely. 

Best maybe tow with a more efficient EV really, but Harry's experience might be just the same with a car with a smaller battery and better efficiancy.

Edited 18 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

2 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

I watched that and Harry Stated that when towing he was down to  something like 1.2kwh when towing or around 100 miles range. That's a ridiculous drop in range from its 300-330 range. Yes I get ICE vehicles see increased consumption when towing but to the same extent??

Also problems with charging po9ints  when towing were highlighted.

Unlike a Petrol pump where you draw up alongside it (admittedly you may block a second pump for 5 minutes for so as you refuel) the majority of EV charging points appear to be set up for Nose/Tail in charging, his conclusion was that you pretty much need to decouple the trailer/caravan whatever  in order to charge without being a knob (my word not his) and blocking everything off.

 

 

Harry was towing a trailer with a car in it which is probably up to it's limit of 2,000kg maybe even over.

 

 

He also went up and down a stretch of road and not on a sustained journey.

 

A caravan usually is expected to be up to half the range.

Edited 18 November, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

I've regularly seen lots of pull-through charging by Tesla and Ionity in Norway by Bjorn. 

 

Gridserve forecourt are also mostly petrol station style when space permits.  (unsure if Gatwick one is pull through, it's space constrained there) 

Newer installs at motorway services are at middle of the car park, allowing pull through. I've seen them at South Mimms, one of midlands service on my way up, I'm sure there are more. 

 

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

Harry was towing a trailer with a car in it which is probably up to it's limit of 2,000kg maybe even over.

 

 

He also went up and down a stretch of road and not on a sustained journey.

 

A caravan usually is expected to be up to half the range.

He was towing a Lotus Elan Sprint which weighs in at 680kg , basically nothing

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I've regularly seen lots of pull-through charging by Tesla and Ionity in Norway by Bjorn. 

 

Gridserve forecourt are also mostly petrol station style when space permits.  (unsure if Gatwick one is pull through, it's space constrained there) 

Newer installs at motorway services are at middle of the car park, allowing pull through. I've seen them at South Mimms, one of midlands service on my way up, I'm sure there are more. 

 

which is nice if you live in Norway or near South Mimms ;o)

Or towing and charging at Charger Hubs where there is the provisions.

The ones i go to were you can stay hitched and charge are Stirling Park & Ride, Broxden Park & Ride Perth, Falkirk Stadium Park & Ride and Wallyford Park & Ride Edinburgh.

This is on PlugShare map with "pull-through" and 50+ kW filter applied:

 

It is missing South Mimms, so there's more out there.

 

Of course, it's not dense enough and there are areas of countryside that is a complete desert (Wales).

The likes of this one works if you are lucky as far as not full. 

Getting a rapid charge (50Kw DC) on the 3 chargers at the canopies going behind at Castleview Park & Ride does really require a charging port at the front or on the front wings.

The Original charger nearer the bus stop can be used when towing and with rear charge ports at either side.

Or you can get 22 kW AC charging if the outer chargers available.

 

Edited 18 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

This is on PlugShare map with "pull-through" and 50+ kW filter applied:

 

It is missing South Mimms, so there's more out there.

 

Of course, it's not dense enough and there are areas of countryside that is a complete desert (Wales).

 

Also missing the big recharging station at Salmons leap i think it is called in South Devon which has a couple of very long bays for EVs that are towing or just very long. For people coming down to Cornwall or South Devon. 

 

11 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Getting a rapid charge (50Kw DC) on the 3 chargers at the canopies going behind at Castleview Park & Ride does really require a charging port at the front or on the front wings.

The Original charger nearer the bus stop can be used when towing and with rear charge ports at either side.

Or you can get 22 kW AC charging if the outer chargers available.

 

I think we need to stop calling 50 kw Rapid.

Now I am not snobby about this as for 3 years just had the Zoe which maxed out at 46 kws but with a Scenic that can do 135 kws, and that is not regarded as very rapid, I think we should call rapid 100 kws at least. Ultra rapid is also a bit of a misnomer.  1000 kws or so would be ultra rapid for a car. It will be a standard to electric 45T, 32T trucks etc for what is required.

 

Edited 18 November, 20241 yr by lol-lol

Would you call USB 2 high speed these days?

Would you call 7 kW fast charging?

 

Unfortunately names become non-descriptive as tech moves on. Giving a moving number names are destined to fail.

 

Just call it what it is, 50 kW DC is perfect I think, keep it simple. Then as we move beyond 150 kW voltage will come into play as charging capability depend on vehicle. So something like 400v 500a might be better. For example 350 kW Ionity are limited to just over 400 amps, so 400v Tesla max out at 180 kW on it. Whilst Korean cars can do over 280 kW on 800v chargers but max out below 200 kW on Tesla 400v 250kW capable Superchargers.

 

Speaking of which, Tesla have just announced V4 cabinets which will 800v charging at speed of 500 kW. So those 800v cars can benefit at locations they are installed. 250 kW for 400v cars. Updated design also focused on faster & cheaper deployment, hopefully we'll see more of them everywhere.

If they get a move on with building the   Low Emission Transport Hubs, so Hydrogen production & filling stations and EV charging hubs like the ones planned in Scotland then that will make a difference on main trunk routes in Scotland for EV,s towing be they cars or vans, Busses and HGV,s.

The one near Broxden Park & Ride Perth should be the first one open but they will be near the city outskirts in Scotland & ports. 

There are a few chargers near the Hydrogen filling station already in Aberdeen but no use if towing.

Edited 18 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

50 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Would you call USB 2 high speed these days?

Would you call 7 kW fast charging?

 

Unfortunately names become non-descriptive as tech moves on. Giving a moving number names are destined to fail.

 

Just call it what it is, 50 kW DC is perfect I think, keep it simple. Then as we move beyond 150 kW voltage will come into play as charging capability depend on vehicle. So something like 400v 500a might be better. For example 350 kW Ionity are limited to just over 400 amps, so 400v Tesla max out at 180 kW on it. Whilst Korean cars can do over 280 kW on 800v chargers but max out below 200 kW on Tesla 400v 250kW capable Superchargers.

 

Speaking of which, Tesla have just announced V4 cabinets which will 800v charging at speed of 500 kW. So those 800v cars can benefit at locations they are installed. 250 kW for 400v cars. Updated design also focused on faster & cheaper deployment, hopefully we'll see more of them everywhere.

 

I have been hoping to see even more container, ie 40 footer packs, boxes as we all them in the trade, of both charger banks and battery mega packs just drop in to locations with minimal fuss.

 

With the megabucks they can charge up at times when grid demand is low and supply the chargers at the peak times.  Must be great buying electricity at 7p a kwh and selling it for 77p or so per kwh, good business model.

 

With battery energy density improving several percent every year but the cost falling several percent each year, or even month, it is a great cost model.

 

There is a real issue, those in England that do not want pylons transmitting more electricity to London across their countryside.

Then those in Scotland that are not wanting bigger pylons transmitting electricity to England were it can be cheaper than in Scotland.

 

It is crazy that a home can use only 50 kWh of electricity in a week, maybe single people or couples not using much but costs them £12,00 plus daily charge, 

or 100 kWh costing £24.00, hard working low earners. 

but a Porsche Mecan might use 100 kWh just to go 240 miles or 110 towing and be able to get that from Off Peak charging for only  £7.00

(Just the same with the likes of me with a not very efficient EV and a Smart Meter.)

 

Taking the P1$$ really is it not?  A social divide. 

Edited 18 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

4 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

He was towing a Lotus Elan Sprint which weighs in at 680kg , basically nothing

which is nice if you live in Norway or near South Mimms ;o)

 

So 1800kg with the trailer?

3 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

So 1800kg with the trailer?

Probably

Still a faff to have to (potentially) charge up every 80-100 miles with a setup that won't fit into the majority of (current) charging points

Having to keep uncoupling would be a pain and a potential security issue.

 

But the right car can do 140miles

 

 

 

Five of the seven cars to make it to the European car of the year are pure EV or have an EV version (C3).....

Even the beautiful CUPRA, as well as the Duster, are available as Hybrids though I would have rather see the Duster with the 1.2 turbo than the 1.6 NA engine, this setup works well in the Clio but Duster should have a turbo I reckon. 

Putting Alpine A290 with the Renault 5 is odd to me as the A290 share much with last years COTY winner ie the Scenic, and the Megane on underpinnings but shape and battery pack size with the R5.  European COTY Winner annouced at Brussel motor show in January after more testing etc.     

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.caroftheyear.org/      The list of the seven finalists for the 2025 edition has just been published, and the 60 jurors from 23 European countries have had to choose from among 42 models those they consider most likely to win the continental award. The winner of The Car Of The Year award will be announced on January 10, during the Brussels International Motor Show.  In September, the first big test of the candidates took place at the Tannistest in Denmark, and now, after the first vote was closed, the seven chosen were (in alphabetical order) Alfa Romeo Junior, Citroën C3, Cupra Terramar, Dacia Duster, Hyundai Inster, Kia EV3 and Renault 5 / Alpine A290 (considered as the same model).    From now on, the jurors will have 8 weeks to thoroughly test the candidates and forge a vote that will allow them to choose the best in Europe. Finally, all seven car models will be brought together for a joint test at the Mettet Test facility in Belgium right up to the final vote for the title The Car of the Year 2025.  For the final choice, each jury can distribute 25 points, offering a maximum of 10 points to a car, and being obliged to vote at least five vehicles of the seven finalists with a winning model.   Last year's continental crown went to the Renault Scenic, which won the final vote over six other contenders - BMW 5 Series, BYD Seal, Kia EV9, Peugeot 3008, Toyota C-HR and Volvo EX30.  The Renault was the most voted with 329 points, beating the BMW 5 Series that got 308 points, followed by the Peugeot 3008 with 197 points. Fourth place went to the Kia EV9 (190 points), fifth to the Volvo EX30 (168 points), sixth to the BYD Seal (131 points) and seventh to the Toyota C-HR with 127 points.  The seven finalists for the Car of the Year 2025:

• Alfa Romeo Junior
• Citroën C3/ë-C3
• Cupra Terramar
• Dacia Duster
• Hyundai Inster
• Kia EV3
• Renault 5 /Alpine A290

@lol-lol   That will be Left Hand Drive cars they will be testing then.

Rather different from Right hand drive cars that will be on UK roads.   Only once you drive the right hand drive car do you find out how the pedals, switch gear etc is.

Sometimes road testers big up the Media car driven abroad and customers get them in the UK before issues are discovered with right hand drive ones.

This happened with a Suzuki model, it was discovered pressing the brake pedal moved the bulkhead and the car accelerated.  RECALL Required.

 

At least it will not be like the What Car / Autocar of the years which can be the next years car announced before the end of a year and before any right hand drive cars are even delivered into the UK.

eg, Mk3 Fabia. 

9 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

Having to keep uncoupling would be a pain and a potential security issue.

 

But the right car can do 140miles

 

 

 

wow a whole 140 miles  before needing to recharge ;o)

I mean even if we accept that an ICE powered car when towing uses 50% more fuel then  given most vehicles will have a starting range  of between 500 & 600 miles it still gives them the edge (plus no faffing about at refuel time)

@Winston_Woof

How often can you go on about the obvious fantastic distances ICE vehicles can on on a tank of fuel.

 

Yes 140 miles with a smaller battery and still a big car. 

But the point is that if that does not suit someone that needs to tow then just do not get an EV. 

 

3 hours with the caravan or whatever behind is going to be more than enough for many that do caravan or tow. 

 

My issue with him and the likes of him were them Charging when at destinations to then run the caravan off the Free Chargers at the time in Scotland, 

Then the next day leaving the car charging on 7, 11 or 50 kW chargers again and bogging off walking cycling etc with the charger locked in. 

Greedy ignorant barstewards around, just like ones off golfing etc with their car charging free rather than at home...

Even now with tariffs some are at it were there is no penalty / max charging time.  They set their charge time but the car sits for hours, daytime or night plugged in hogging the charger / bay. 

 

What a total palaver and carry on. Just like the EV Campers and the limited range between charges.

But then i Drive a Mini Electric and know all about needing to charge every 2 hours or sooner. 

Just not the hassle of hitching and un-hitching and hitching.  But for some it is their way of having fun...

 

**2024 sort of costs. These free charging days are long gone.**

2 miles a kWh & 75 pence a kWh is 100 miles costing £37.50.  Crazy.

55 pence a kWh £27.50

79 pence a kWh is £39.50 for only 100 miles travel.     You do need to have money to burn...

 

Getting 200 miles with optimum efficiency makes a very big difference, well enough to be not so extortionate to tow with an EV.

Tesla Super Charger to Supercharger can bring the cost down to that 60 pence a kWh or less.

 

 

 

Edited 19 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

1 hour ago, Winston_Woof said:

I mean even if we accept that an ICE powered car when towing uses 50% more fuel then  given most vehicles will have a starting range  of between 500 & 600 miles it still gives them the edge (plus no faffing about at refuel time)

Hum so 250-300 miles. 

 

ICE drivers' sentiment here seems to suggest that's not enough range. 

 

😜

EV may also need number plate heater 🤣

 

16 hours ago, Ootohere said:

There is a real issue, those in England that do not want pylons transmitting more electricity to London across their countryside.

Then those in Scotland that are not wanting bigger pylons transmitting electricity to England were it can be cheaper than in Scotland.

 

It is crazy that a home can use only 50 kWh of electricity in a week, maybe single people or couples not using much but costs them £12,00 plus daily charge, 

or 100 kWh costing £24.00, hard working low earners. 

but a Porsche Mecan might use 100 kWh just to go 240 miles or 110 towing and be able to get that from Off Peak charging for only  £7.00

(Just the same with the likes of me with a not very efficient EV and a Smart Meter.)

 

Taking the P1$$ really is it not?  A social divide. 

The irony here is that it seems to be mainly people who have their own home and many with enough space to have about 2 or 3 cars off the road and home charge, who are among the biggest complainers about pylons.