The Mandate is as it is because the UK government signed up to emissions reductions. 

We are where we are because of what the Governments agreed to and signed up to and the MP<s and Politicians were elected by those that can vote.

 

Car Factory workers voted just like others. 

 

Plenty people must be earning on the Green Gravy Train, or working for those that are. 

5 minutes ago, EnterName said:

There should be no punitive quota system in place, IMO. Let the market decide, the market is ALWAYS right.

I think the market has decided, EV sales are not going in the right direction. To impose financial penalties on car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's because the public don't want them or can't afford them is just crazy.

Allowing car manufacturers to cheat / game the percentage of EV cars and EV vans First Registered by them buying Credits from Manufacturers that only build EV,s is just ridiculous.

There are the EV only Car Manufacturers that have plenty Credits to sell.

Getting the 10% first Registration of Electric Light Commercials.

 

Plenty Companies like Utilities, Councils, NHS, Royal Mail etc are running EV vans.

More Government Agencies should maybe have been required to, and councils / local authorities especially where they have not made any efforts to. 

 

The Grants and Discounts that were available and which went to the Companies selling cars / vans and kept the prices high was and is a scandal.

These over expensive vehicles did depreciate heavily even before any normal patterns. 

 

The incentives to Business's of buying / leasing and running EV,s has allowed lots of running of vehicles that might not have been the best use of employees work time.

Edited 28 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

8 minutes ago, moley said:

I think the market has decided, EV sales are not going in the right direction. To impose financial penalties on car manufacturers for not selling enough EV's because the public don't want them or can't afford them is just crazy.

But it IS ideologically correct, so until reality really gets in the way, the ideology will prevail and to hell with the consequences.

A good start would be to ban all MPs from using ICE vehicles, and force them to use the EVs they think we should all have to use.

That might clear up a few misconceptions about the real-world issues people face when relying on EVs.

It might be a good idea to give the public more EV experience opportunities, to help broaden their appeal.

Mandatory EV courtesy cars, perhaps?

13 minutes ago, EnterName said:

But it IS ideologically correct, so until reality really gets in the way, the ideology will prevail and to hell with the consequences.

A good start would be to ban all MPs from using ICE vehicles, and force them to use the EVs they think we should all have to use.

That might clear up a few misconceptions about the real-world issues people face when relying on EVs.

It might be a good idea to give the public more EV experience opportunities, to help broaden their appeal.

Mandatory EV courtesy cars, perhaps?

EV's should be a personal lifestyle choice IMO at this stage of the game, especially while there are still so many problems to be resolved to enable everyone to really consider an EV as a truly viable option to having an ICE. Whatever air quality improvements we make here, and it is a proven fact that our air is far superior to most other countries, including parts of Europe, is not going to make a single iota of difference to the overall situation. It really just down to politicians playing out their ideas of looking great on the world stage while ignoring the simple facts that our people will suffer as a result of the madness that they are creating. Look at the sheer amount of real estate these hubs take up, simply because they need to space to accommodate the cars while charging, something is not required with ICE, and all that concrete etc is just adding to the flooding risk.

I seriously looked at changing Mrs Moley's car to an EV in October 2023. The positives were that her annual mileage is around 4k, she didn't need a big car and the was no VED on EV's. I got quotes for installing a home charger before sitting down and doing the maths. The sensible option was the MG4  but I was unsure of it's long term viability and I really didn't want to buy a Chinese vehicle if I could help it. I would prefer to stay with Skoda, but the Enyaq is too big. She settled for the Kamiq with the 1.5 petrol engine and DSG box. The price came out about £12k less than an equivalent EV. Now the VED on EV's is going to be the same as a ICE car, so that incentive has gone. For the future I see that Skoda are planning two new EV models, a mid size and a smaller 'SUV' style. In 3 years time that might be an option, but at the moment the £12k we saved will buy us about 90,000 miles of driving.

Edited 28 November, 20241 yr by moley
Typo

54 minutes ago, Dieselgate said:

Obviously can't really comment on the 2.6 miles/kW/h but probably noteworthy that it seems this was measured 'brim to brim' so to speak (the trip computer said 4 miles/kWh).

Ah, I see, thanks for clarification. 

Tesla trip computer never counts stuff outside of driving. 4 mi/kWh is more like it.  If they were using sentry mode or doing anything that keeps the car awake, it will use energy. Even opening the door will fire up the AC. 

I drove in congested for very few miles but sat in the car waiting one whole morning, it used more than double what trip computer said. 

 

55 minutes ago, EnterName said:

Let the market decide, the market is ALWAYS right.

When there is no pressure to innovate, the products made available by the encumbent stagnates, the market can only buy what is available. Thus the market cannot be always right. 

 

Now when there are pressure from government and far east, we get this kind of shenenigan from established players: 

2021 blame chip crisis: Vauxhall Motors: 100 Luton jobs to go due to chip crisis - BBC News

2023 blame Brexit: Fears for Vauxhall Luton van plant's future due to Brexit - BBC News

2024 blame EV's: Vauxhall's Luton plant to close with fears over 1,100 jobs as production moved - Mirror Online

Can we really trust the root cause is their latest blame victim? 

 

57 minutes ago, moley said:

I think the market has decided, EV sales are not going in the right direction. 

This view that people don't want them is not right though. Even now, Skoda doesn't have sub £25k EV. Ford, who recently asked for handouts, are just making rebadged mid-size VW SUV's. 

The available models are still not across every company's full product stack, people cannot buy the EV in the size and shape they prefer or they used to buy.

So it's a bit early to say the market has decided when the availble products cannot fully satisfy every segment of the market. 

 

Main dealers are also not doing their job. It is hardly a difficult bit of computer-eering to create a sales system that pushes a certain type of vehicle. 
Customer; 'I want that large ICE car'.
Dealer; 'Sorry, sir, we have no allocation today for that vehicle, but I can put you on a list. I cannot promise when you might get an allocation. Or you can have that similar sized EV, it is available today.'
Customer; 'Meh. OK, I'll take the EV, I was thinking about one, anyway, you've made the decision for me.'
Dealer; 'A good decision, sir! You will be pleased with it, I am sure.'
I don't believe main dealers are having this sort of conversation. 

VED on EV,s is no loss of incentive to those that will be charging at home for the use of their vehicle even if occasionally they need to public charge.     That is as long as you can get your off-peak electric to charge at prices lower than 10 pence a kWh.      50 kWh at 10 pence a kWh even if only getting 150 miles from that being £5.    7 pence for 10 kWh 70 pence and 40 miles possible.   It is the over 70 pence public charging a kWh so £7 for 35 - 40 miles, then chargers at 85 pence with InstaVolt.    Just crazy expensive if needed more than just occasionally. 

15 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

VED on EV,s is no loss of incentive to those that will be charging at home for the use of their vehicle even if occasionally they need to public charge.     That is as long as you can get your off-peak electric to charge at prices lower than 10 pence a kWh.      50 kWh at 10 pence a kWh even if only getting 150 miles from that being £5.    7 pence for 10 kWh 70 pence and 40 miles possible.   It is the over 70 pence public charging a kWh so £7 for 35 - 40 miles, then chargers at 85 pence with InstaVolt.    Just crazy expensive if needed more than just occasionally. 

 

The latter would normally be called price gouging and would be investigated in other businesses 

53 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Tesla trip computer never counts stuff outside of driving. 4 mi/kWh is more like it. 

Interesting, it would certainly be more useful if it did though wouldn't it?

I.e. in an ICE car you always expect the mpg to drop when sitting in traffic.

3 minutes ago, Dieselgate said:

Interesting, it would certainly be more useful if it did though wouldn't it?

I.e. in an ICE car you always expect the mpg to drop when sitting in traffic.

It does drop when sitting in traffic. It counts everything outside of P gear. It is a trip computer. 

It doesn't count when sitting in P gear with heater blasting, gaming on the screen and car door open/closing all the time as wife goes around different shops and drops off stuff. 

 

Difference is I think ICE car does count everything, including engine idling when waiting around. Displayed as l/hr? 

 

I suspect they were sitting in the car for some time for whatever reason. Route planning? Shooting B-rolls with doors open and AC on? 

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

It is a trip computer. 

It doesn't count when sitting in P gear with heater blasting, gaming on the screen and car door open/closing all the time as wife goes around different shops and drops off stuff.

I suspect most people will see it as an estimate of range, which if it doesn't include energy usage when in P will make it useless in many owners opinion.

Is he saying 15% at the start. Sounds like he is to me.      Why does he then say if 50% was to go?     Tree fellers wanted!    PS, my car shows no drop in battery percent as sitting driving.  Then when in drive and moving there is less range / battery percent.   I could be on 100% and 103 miles showing and after 5 mins sitting driving and then moving maybe show 96% and 90 miles and then once moving and the battery heating and me getting Regen it will be up to 98% and 107 miles. 

Edited 28 November, 20241 yr by Ootohere

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

I suspect most people will see it as an estimate of range, which if it doesn't include energy usage when in P will make it useless in many owners opinion.

There's waaaaay more useful metric than consumption figure.

Set sat-nav to destination and you'll get an estimated arrival %, much better to use this for estimating range. (it is also recently updated: https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/2392/tesla-improves-trip-planner-arrival-state-of-charge-coming)

Setting sat-nav is also super easy, just share the destination from any map app on mobile.

 

How often do you, or anyone, sit in the car while parked? Does people always do this without thinking about their fuel use in other cars? What meaningful information does adding parked consumption give you? It certainly doesn't make estimating range easier by detaching the consumption number from real driving consumption.

 

Why must EV/Tesla include this consumption in the legacy "trip computer" display from 90's? When there's much much better place for this consumption data, Tesla puts them in the energy app. There's a section for overall energy use, a section for standby energy use and another for this drive vs sat-nav estimate.

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

How often do you, or anyone, sit in the car while parked?

At least once a week while my partner does some shopping which is of no interest to me...

 

Most new EV owners will have come from an ICE or hybrid and will expect to get the same sort of information made available to them - if they don't then they will 'bad mouth' their new EV to all their friends  - this is why they must continue with the "legacy 'trip computer' from the 90's" if they want to get customer acceptance, like it or not most people hate change.

They key is getting accurate information.

 

Trip computer only tells historic driving data because that was the technology in the 90's. Just like remaining range guess-o-meter, the trip computer is only useful as a general metric. In EV's, depend on implementation (some count parked, some doesn't), it is not far removed from legacy ICE/hybrid style trip computer.

 

Sitting in traffic, Tesla still counts consumption in trip computer, just like ICE vehicle of 90's. Not including P (parked) makes it more accurate source of information for driving, but understandably this is personal preference. It takes less than 5 seconds to work out true consumption with (new to most people) energy app, how much used when parked and 1 glance to see if there is enough energy left in the battery to reach destination. This accurate information is faaaar more useful than anything based on previous driving data.

 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:53, lol-lol said:

 

Downloaded 25 kwh. 

14 for the Scenic, 7 for the Zoe and r for the house batteries and clothes washing and drying.

 

Happy with that, apparently got to wait for a few days to see the credit but suppose it will be about £6. Not bad for doing something one would do anyways. 

 

More please Octopus and keep Octopus Go night time rate at 8 5p per kwh.

 

Credit now appearing on accounts page.

I got £9.37
Around 36 kWh worth.

Actually only saved £2.50 when converted to overnight cost. But was fun seeing how much I can draw and making sure when drawing maximum, nothing glows. 

53 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Credit now appearing on accounts page.

I got £9.37
Around 36 kWh worth.

Actually only saved £2.50 when converted to overnight cost. But was fun seeing how much I can draw and making sure when drawing maximum, nothing glows. 

 

£5.72 credited, happy with that as was easy to do in that 7am to 9am time slot.

 

Hope there are more of them. Think the day was shown as costing me just over £7 so basically just over a pound for my lecky that day which included adding about a hundred miles in range to the two cars and running the fridge freezer that day for about 25p instead of 75p I reckon.

 

If only I could do this with the gas but I would need to move over to a heat pump to do that.

 

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

When there is no pressure to innovate, the products made available by the encumbent stagnates, the market can only buy what is available. Thus the market cannot be always right. 

That's not logically consistent.

Businesses are always keen to attract customers from rivals. If the incumbent manufacturers fail to continue to improve their products, new competitors will sweep in and take the market from them. This is nothing new.
The market is ALWAYS right, which is why people in positions of power who wish to promote products the market has rejected, have to subvert the market by penalising people for buying the products they desire, and providing incentives to persuade them to buy products they find less attractive.

Get a "free" home charger.

"Free" charging.

"Free" VED.

Get a big subsidy off the cost of your new EV. etc.

Get an inflated part-exchange price for your old product.

 

There's also a problem when the "free" stuff runs out. As people used to charging for free, £0 VED etc. suddenly find that when they have to pay for what they are used to getting for "free", the product/service isn't as attractive as it once was. ("Free" meaning someone else was paying for it.)

 

If you threaten people, you can intimidate some of them into not buying what you don't want them to.

With sustained propaganda, you can even shame some of them into not buying what you don't want them to.

But it's difficult/expensive to get them to buy something they don't want, which seems to me to be where the EV market is now with the general public.

So that us where we are.

Just sitting back watching and waiting. 

  It seems to be cheering up some that they can keep going on about the EV Revolution, maybe even revel in it all being a great failure.

12 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@EnterName elephant in the room, Stellantis Electric Vans have very poor efficiency.  Pathetic range from the 50 or 75kW batteries.  They are a total PITA for many drivers that have to drive them because this is what their employers landed them with.     PS. I do feel sorry for these drivers.  Yesterday the ex Vauxhall factory said that Companies could not afford drivers sitting charging and not driving for 1 hour while charging.   Actually the saving on fuel to companies and saving on taxes pays easily an hour of a tradesman or a driver for many companies.    For those with high hourly rate employees they might not give them an EV or give them a more efficient one and with faster charging speeds.  Like the Management might have as a Company Car even if they do not travel for their job. 

To highlight a point, you made, this video appears to back that up.

 

 

2 hours ago, EnterName said:

Businesses are always keen to attract customers from rivals. If the incumbent manufacturers fail to continue to improve their products, new competitors will sweep in and take the market from them. This is nothing new.

What if there is a huge upfront R&D cost to a new technology that completely negates existing technical knowledge of legacy manufacturers. Innovation is hard, it's far easier to keep building ICE cars with tweaks to 10 year old platform than making a completely new platform. That would be more than enough incentive to actively resist the change.

 

Case in point: people really wanted the EV1 made by GM. But they were rounded up and crushed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#Demise

 

As I shown in my earlier post with Luton Vauxhall plant, blaming random stuff and putting pressure on slippery politicians are all part of legacy car manufacturer's playbook. It's all about getting handouts (not free market) or getting special treatment (not free market).

 

2 hours ago, EnterName said:

The market is ALWAYS right, which is why people in positions of power who wish to promote products the market has rejected, have to subvert the market by penalising people for buying the products they desire, and providing incentives to persuade them to buy products they find less attractive.

Get a "free" home charger.

"Free" charging.

"Free" VED.

Get a big subsidy off the cost of your new EV. etc.

Get an inflated part-exchange price for your old product.

I guess you forgot the word "free". But there is no such thing as free market.

 

Funny how you are quoting tiny subsidies when there is far more money being pumped into fossil fuel to prop it up.

There is still record amount of money flowing into fossil fuel industry. For example, according to Guardian, fossil fuel received £20 billion more than renewables between 2015 and 2023,

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/09/fossil-fuels-more-support-uk-than-renewables-since-2015

 

If you truly believe market is always right, then you ought to stop and define what is the market. The energy market is certainly not free from corruption and backroom dealings. Fossil fuel only works because of support they receive from governments that are not widely publicised.

 

I guess what you are saying is a market that is being manipulated in favour of your view is always right? Because legacy ICE and oil industry certainly still have large amount of leverage over the many of world's governments.

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

What if there is a huge upfront R&D cost to a new technology that completely negates existing technical knowledge of legacy manufacturers. Innovation is hard, it's far easier to keep building ICE cars with tweaks to 10 year old platform than making a completely new platform. That would be more than enough incentive to actively resist the change.

That's what venture capitalists are for. Incidentally, Musk did this with Tesla, and everyone loved him until he lost all his lefty credentials and now he's hated by the woke because he bought Twitter, now X. Nevertheless, he's made a good product and the market have responded accordingly. Teslas are everywhere! (I seem to recall you bought one yourself, did YOU get it wrong? 😋) 

 

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I guess you forgot the word "free". But there is no such thing as free market.

This is a good point and an important caveat: As soon as someone starts tippling the scales to try and steer the market in a preferred direction, they mess things up and the market reacts.

Yes, if you heavily subsidise EVs and punish ICE vehicles, then you can tip the scales sufficiently for the market to buy the subsidised vehicles. (Just look at all the whooping and hat-throwing on here over an hour's free electricity. Some people are cheaply bought.) But of course then you have to keep the subsidies in place until you have killed off the opposition. Incidentally, you can do this with any business, and it's simple enough:

1) Set up shop competitively adjacent to your business rival.

2) Undercut them so strongly that they either go bust trying to match your prices, or go broke through lack of business. (A partner with deep pockets is essential here.)

3) Once they're out of business, buy up what's left of them, stock, property etc. and revise your prices to whatever you want (without shocking your customers away with a sudden increase), seeing as you've demolished your competition.

 

This is called predatory pricing and in the UK can be challenged by reference to the Competition Act 1998, or reported to the Competition and Markets Authority, but it's difficult to prove and I suspect many have gone bust trying, especially against a wealthy opponent with deeper pockets and more expensive lawyers.

 

Reasonably free markets are not hard to achieve, but then a successful free market doesn't need a whole lot of oversight/governance, just facilitation and protection against corruption. An example of facilitation would be finding a way of letting people change their energy supplier quickly and easily, without intrusive disconnection and reconnection. For those who love state control over everything, that is unacceptable. "What if people don't do what I want them to? No no no! We must have regulation over absolutely everything! Besides, whatever would all the bureaucrats do!?!".

 

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

If you truly believe market is always right, then you ought to stop and define what is the market.

Luckily, as I'm not a far-left ideologue (I'm not throwing shade at you here, Wyx), I'm capable of giving definitions for words I use.

From my perspective, the "market" is the aggregate term for the exchange of scarce resources which have alternative uses. If you let people freely trade, and the only authoritative intervention is to facilitate free trade, then the "market" will allocate those scarce resources correctly, in line with the needs and desires of the people who wish to exchange those scarce resources. Using gold as a currency facilitates the market. Fiat money subverts it.

(Now ask me to define what a woman is, I'm one of the few people on Brisky who can honestly and accurately answer that question. 😋)

 

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I guess what you are saying is a market that is being manipulated in favour of your view is always right?

LOL no. 😄

What I'm saying is the exact opposite of that.

The market should NOT be manipulated at all. Not even a little bit. Facilitation is fine. Offering protection against predatory pricing is okay, though if someone comes along and does it better and cheaper, well TS. That said, if it's a foreign state-backed company, then I think it's reasonable for predatory pricing protection legislation to be used to protect local businesses against that.

 

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Because legacy ICE and oil industry certainly still have large amount of leverage over the many of world's governments.

Yes they do, and as a result, the market is manipulated by that leverage and influence.

I am against that.

 

Edited 29 November, 20241 yr by EnterName
Tidied it up a bit. Give me a break, there's a lot in that post.

11 hours ago, Ootohere said:

So that us where we are.

Just sitting back watching and waiting. 

  It seems to be cheering up some that they can keep going on about the EV Revolution, maybe even revel in it all being a great failure.

What do you mean?