3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes no doubt there will come a time when  fossil fuel will cease to be extracted, there cannot be an endless supply of it at the rate we are using it, the end is a certainty at some point. 

Even when nobody in the world is burning petroleum based fuels we will still need lubricants and the base materials for plastics (even when we have got rid of all single use plastics).

 

Since even so called synthetic oils are still based on crude oil distillates there will still be a market, albeit a much smaller one, for countries to extract crude oil and gas from the ground.

16 minutes ago, Norton Ian said:

electric cars have a much more limited life than an ICE car

...

We will be in a situation where there are thousands of perfectly good cars that are scrap just due to the batteries being too expensive to replace. It doesn't sound very ECO to me. 

Average car age was quoted as low as 9 years and up to 15 years by some. 

 

FWIW, my Nissan Leaf  is just over 10 years old now, from 2014. It is still just about do 50 miles in winter and more in summer. Over last year it had been discharged every day for vehicle-2-home (using EV as home battery). Battery health reading from a few weeks ago is 78%.
I have zero doubt the battery will continue to be fully functional for us both as vehicle and home battery, until other part of the vehicle is beyond economical repair, other parts that could also be a problem on ICE vehicle, such as suspension and bodywork. 

 

EV main battery are more than reliable enough that it will last longer than lifetime of the vehicle. To be re-used in stationary applications before needing to be recycled. 

 

Reduce (more efficient vehicle), Reuse (re-use EV battery as home battery or stadium battery), finally it's Recycle. 

 

44 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Look at the vast amounts of real estate required to build a charging hub, that is not cheap,

I wonder how much does it cost to build a brand new petrol station. 

Also, if it's cheaper to change petrol station into rapid charging hubs, than building brand new ones. 

 

1 minute ago, PetrolDave said:

Since even so called synthetic oils are still based on crude oil distillates there will still be a market, albeit a much smaller one, for countries to extract crude oil and gas from the ground.

Key is stop burning stuff, and stop consuming it as single-use. 

 

Plastic can be recycled....... according to the plastic industry.......... 🤡

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Plastic can be recycled....... according to the plastic industry.......... 🤡

Is that true of all plastics? I understood that thermoset plastics could not be reused - but I'm happy to be corrected.

 

Quote

Common examples of thermoset plastics and polymers include epoxy, silicone, polyurethane and phenolic. In addition, some materials such as polyester can occur in both thermoplastic and thermoset versions.

 

43 minutes ago, Norton Ian said:

The majority of people who buy a car do NOT buy a new car. Used electric cars seem even harder to sell than new ones, which is not really surprising as electric cars have a much more limited life than an ICE car. I have never bought a new car and usually buy a one or two year old car that has had some of the depreciation taken out of it. For this I get a car which feels virtually new and has many years of life left in it. Doing the same with an electric car would give me a much shorter life and the car would be virtually worthless at the end of the batteries life. We will be in a situation where there are thousands of perfectly good cars that are scrap just due to the batteries being too expensive to replace. It doesn't sound very ECO to me. 

 

Do not know where you get your info but EVs will typically last between twice to three times longer/miles than an ICE vehicle.

 

Edited 3 December, 20241 yr by lol-lol

7 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Is that true of all plastics? I understood that thermoset plastics could not be reused - but I'm happy to be corrected.

 

 

Of course not true of all plastics and many even when said to be recycleable is not recycled at scale. 

 

Hence the clown face at plastic industry's claim. 

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Do not know where you get your info but EVs will typically last between twice to three times longer/miles than anyone ICE vehicle.

 

What, you're prepared to make a claim that we will be having EVs still in use in another 60 to 100 years time? That I find hard to accept, the electronics will have toasted themselves before they even reach 20 years old, and they will not be obtainable. 

 

Why do I say that the electronics will fail, because they are now well known for having a relatively short life, a tantalum capacitor can suddenly decide to kake its pants, and blow its head off in a small ball of flame and take with it one or more dedicated custom IC's that are no longer being made as they are customised to a particular car / hardware and the only answer is then going to be trying to find a second-hand unit that still will not work as the parts are programmed specifically for each car etc. This is just as true for many of the current crop of ICE new cars.

Edited 3 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

Funnily not only do the majority buy a used car,

they buy a used car that was bought brand new 100% of the time, even if by the manufacturers then sold used.

 

Now anyone buying a Jaguar new in the UK is getting a used one. 

 

....................

WTF will the Shiny Black Plastic on these look like after use of salted / gritted roads and washes?

They might be better Wrapping the Plastics as is an option with New Defenders. 

Edited 3 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

EV Batteries or cells in batteries look like being cheaper than a replacement engine will be for ICE vehicles.

 

Labour might be higher for the battery replacement unless the Technical Collages and Motor Trade Colleges get more EV techs trained up and also Dealership Trained EV techs go out on their own as Independent EV Techs.

Actually that is already happening. 

 

 

Edited 3 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

@Ootohere haha, all true though every used car was new once. You have a point there with the plastics, we use far too much plastic in cars today, a fire in one regardless of its type normally results in its total loss because of the high level of plastics in them. 

1 hour ago, Norton Ian said:

The majority of people who buy a car do NOT buy a new car. Used electric cars seem even harder to sell than new ones, which is not really surprising as electric cars have a much more limited life than an ICE car. I have never bought a new car and usually buy a one or two year old car that has had some of the depreciation taken out of it. For this I get a car which feels virtually new and has many years of life left in it. Doing the same with an electric car would give me a much shorter life and the car would be virtually worthless at the end of the batteries life. We will be in a situation where there are thousands of perfectly good cars that are scrap just due to the batteries being too expensive to replace. It doesn't sound very ECO to me. 

 

How many cars are scrapped now just because they will be too expensive to repair to get the emissions down for an mot?

 

"In 2021 alone, a record 1.3 million cars failed the MOT due to high exhaust emissions"

 

Sometimes the repairs necessary exceed the value of the car just the same as your fear over battery life.

 

 

There are regions of the UK where now selling a used BEV might be easier than a Euro 4 / 5 Diesel. 

Carwow have done one of their "see how far it can go" challenges. Won't spoil the result, but the camera car is a diesel Skoda and it does rather well, even though it isn't part of the test.

 

 

Apparently EV sales are up, or are they? The truth is out there, somewhere.

 

 

 

^^^^  As we have known for the year to now.  So he is hardly Nostradamus. 

The SMMT, DfT, DVSA, Secretary of State for Transport, Roads Minister and just about anyone to do with anything knows.

..............

Matt Watson and his trips are interesting, for those that maybe actually do travel at the speed limits on Motorways, 70 mph.

Not as many might, 75-80 mph.  

They are not going at the speed on the speedo are they, 70 mph indicated and 67 mph maybe.

 

Poor efficiency anyway @ 70 mph. 

 

 

 

He has a point on petrol stations, every station should have ultra-rapid charging these days.

 

The Ford is a VAG car in disguise. Surprising it's much more efficient than Q4, I think they are the same car underneath.

The "test" is missing the ID4/5 and Enyaq.

 

Why does every reviewer talk about no Carplay/AA in Tesla? The infotainment is so good it doesn't need to use your phone. This year's Xmas update will add traffic visualisation along route for free, shows 3 routes with traffic Waze/G map style.

Also, the MY rear seat back rest is adjustable.

 

Another addition is rear cross traffic alert. Paid add-on feature in other cars, comes in a free update on all few years old Tesla.

https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/2412/tesla-reveals-features-in-this-years-holiday-update

Most other manufacturers seems to have zero interest once the car leaves the factory.

 

 

Oh yes, the update also adds preference to trailer friendly superchargers when towing:

Edited 5 December, 20241 yr by wyx087

40 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

^^^^  As we have known for the year to now.  So he is hardly Nostradamus. 

The SMMT, DfT, DVSA, Secretary of State for Transport, Roads Minister and just about anyone to do with anything knows.

..............

Matt Watson and his trips are interesting, for those that maybe actually do travel at the speed limits on Motorways, 70 mph.

Not as many might, 75-80 mph.  

They are not going at the speed on the speedo are they, 70 mph indicated and 67 mph maybe.

 

Poor efficiency anyway @ 70 mph. 

 

 

 

 

Except the Polestars which seem to do the best in recent tests. New model 3 Highland LR version quite impressive.

 

SUV shaped vehicles really suffer at 70 ish, better at around 60.

 

11 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

He has a point on petrol stations, every station should have ultra-rapid charging these days.

 

The Ford is a VAG car in disguise. Surprising it's much more efficient than Q4, I think they are the same car underneath.

The "test" is missing the ID4/5 and Enyaq.

 

Why does every reviewer talk about no Carplay/AA in Tesla? The infotainment is so good it doesn't need to use your phone. This year's Xmas update will add traffic visualisation along route for free, shows 3 routes with traffic Waze/G map style.

Also, the MY rear seat back rest is adjustable.

 

Another addition is rear cross traffic alert. Paid add-on feature in other cars, comes in a free update on all few years old Tesla.

https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/2412/tesla-reveals-features-in-this-years-holiday-update

Most other manufacturers seems to have zero interest once the car leaves the factory.

 

Also missing 2024 Car of the year Scenic with its 370 mile WLTP, more like 330 real at 70 ish.

 

Best not go places in a EV SUV all on your Jack Jones like a commercial traveller if you have to stick to 60 mph on motorways. 

If paying for your own charging on Public chargers you will maybe save a few quid though at 10 mph slower.

 

 

...................

My last month, home charging night tariff, maybe 600 miles with the car, and 7 night hours of the fridge / freezer, a few kettle boils, just £15.

Plus 750 miles Public charging about £120 though. 

 

 

 

Edited 5 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

45 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Best not go places in a EV SUV all on your Jack Jones like a commercial traveller if you have to stick to 60 mph on motorways. 

If paying for your own charging on Public chargers you will maybe save a few quid though at 10 mph slower.

 

 

...................

My last month, home charging night tariff, maybe 600 miles with the car, and 7 night hours of the fridge / freezer, a few kettle boils, just £15.

Plus 750 miles Public charging about £120 though. 

 

 

 

 

Whilst my average might only be about 60 mph i find myself doing 70 plus down the hills with the Scenic this is with the regen in the lowest ie freewheel setting.  Up the hills conscious to perhaps get some aero draft and keep the miles per kilowatt over 4.

 

I look at it timeout to stop and charge, just for ten minutes and think if I just slow down by 5 mph will not need to stop.  

 

Just did Worcester to Yeovil to Taunton and then back to Worcester. Was about 240 miles and managed my speed on the motorway so I arrived home with 5% battery. Will charge tonight to bring it back up to 65% battery and 175 miles of range at a princely cost of £3.

 

Still waiting to hear if Octopus have stuck with 8.5p per kwh despite the day rates rising.

 

15 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Whilst my average might only be about 60 mph i find myself doing 70 plus down the hills with the Scenic this is with the regen in the lowest ie freewheel setting.  Up the hills conscious to perhaps get some aero draft and keep the miles per kilowatt over 4.

 

I look at it timeout to stop and charge, just for ten minutes and think if I just slow down by 5 mph will not need to stop.  

 

Just did Worcester to Yeovil to Taunton and then back to Worcester. Was about 240 miles and managed my speed on the motorway so I arrived home with 5% battery. Will charge tonight to bring it back up to 65% battery and 175 miles of range at a princely cost of £3.

 

Still waiting to hear if Octopus have stuck with 8.5p per kwh despite the day rates rising.

 

But that is not what Matt Watson wanted, he set the parameters for the test to be as most "normal" drivers would with no aids to economy other than having the heated seats off, air con set at 20C and keeping strictly to the speed limits and achieving them whenever possible, so no eco-modes at all.

Edited 5 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

13 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

But that is not what Matt Watson wanted, he set the parameters as most "normal" drivers would with no aids to economy other than having the heated seats off and keeping strictly to the speed limits and achieving them whenever possible, so no eco-modes at all.

 

Heated seats use almost no energy so better to use than air con especially when temperature outside is 13c or so so not needed.

 

Eco mode can get the last n'th of energy so I will have on for a bit but oft use the steering wheel mode selector to flip in to comfort and even sport mode for a few seconds or minutes.

 

I find i can reach by destination in a few percent left whether i am travelling 80, 80, 100 or 110% of WLTP range. Just manage the speed and then can hardly ever need to public charge.

 

Much cheapness if charging but lots of claiming at the Treasury mileage rate.

 

Could gave made life easier with tge version that a hundred miles more range but quite stimulating playing the hit the optimum cruising to get home with a margin I am happy with ie about 5% showing.

 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by lol-lol

32 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Heated seats use almost no energy so better to use than air con especially when temperature outside is 13c or so so not needed.

 

Eco mode can get the last n'th of energy so I will have on for a bit but oft use the steering wheel mode selector to flip in to comfort and even sport mode for a few seconds or minutes.

 

I find i can reach by destination in a few percent left whether i am travelling 80, 80, 100 or 110% of WLTP range. Just manage the speed and then can hardly ever need to public charge.

 

Much cheapness if charging but lots of claiming at tge Treasury mileage rate.

 

Could gave made life easier with tge version that a hundred miles more range but quite stimulating playing the hit the optimum cruising to get home with a margin I am happy with ie about 5% showing.

 

Yes, but you are distorting the results again from the conditions that Matt set for the test, and you're thinking like a person who is besotted with EVs. Whereas Matt was thinking about people who were thinking about transitioning from an ICE to an EV where heat is a by product of combustion and using a heated seat would be increasing the load on the engine and thus decreasing the range. Surely it is better anyway to be at a comfortable temperature all over your body and not have a hot/warm back and be cold everywhere else? As you get older, you feel the cold more, especially in the feet and hands and cold fingers are not good for driving and wearing gloves is equally not good.

Edited 5 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Surely it is better anyway to be at a comfortable temperature all over your body and not have a hot/warm back and be cold everywhere else?

Absolutely; one of the "least comfortable" experiences I've had was when the previous passenger in the car left the heated seat on and I suddenly became aware of having a very hot back...

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, but you are distorting the results again from the conditions that Matt set for the test, and you're thinking like a person who is besotted with EVs. Whereas Matt was thinking about people who were thinking about transitioning from an ICE to an EV where heat is a by product of combustion and using a heated seat would be increasing the load on the engine and thus decreasing the range. Surely it is better anyway to be at a comfortable temperature all over your body and not have a hot/warm back and be cold everywhere else? As you get older, you feel the cold more, especially in the feet and hands and cold fingers are not good for driving and wearing gloves is equally not good.

 

The idea of Matt Watson is to produce an entertaining video and we will get some indicators, not very scientific, of what this cars are relatively like.  I see from one of the video frames that the outside temperature was about 8C and I thought in some of the later shots the roads looked a bit wet.   These What Cars drive the EV until they die are quite usefully but not scientific and not even very real world as anybody sensible would slow down a bit if they drive through times when it is rainy.  In France you might get nicked for driving at 70s ish in rain when the speed limit drops from 130 kph (81 mph) to 110 kph (68 mph), one should slow down a bit from the national maximum speed when it is raining, the sensible French enforce by law not s the Brits.  In Europe from November onwards most citizens go on to winters tyres, 7C being the type manufacturers point where we should be on All Seasons or Winters and not Summer tyres which all the What Car cars presumably all.

 

What car say they topped up all the batteries to 100%.  Did they do other important measures like check tyres pressure are right on the morning ?   A more valid test would be to say we want you to aim to get to Berwick, say, from Cherwell was it they started, thought it might be South Mimms, and you have to exceed an average of 60 mph ie you can grab a comfort stop but maintain a reasonably expected good average journey speed.   My circulation is not great, feet particularly, hands seem not too bad. Scenic first cat in ages I have had with heated steering wheel, a couple of old old Oct L&K might have had it but I have not been in a situation in a place where I would just stick the cabin temp at 20C and felt right about it. I am sometimes lowering it to 19, 19.5C and then up to 20.5 C or up to 21C, especially after a stop.

 

Whilst an interesting video I think the generally reported figure of achieving 80% of WLTP is not true for many EV drivers as they will drive intelligently, even at 8C and wet roads, and they will achieve 90, 95 or even 100% of WLTP range and drive safer and more comfortable rather this interesting but artificial test. Just let the drivers drive within a time window which considers road safety.

 

100% of WLTP range when so many are the likes of 5 miles a kWh is not getting achieved. 

That WLTP range is when you look CITY, not a Motorway / Highway. 

 

155 miles. needs 3.5 miles a kWh.

235 is 5.3 miles a kWh.  City.  Unlikely...

 

Edited 6 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere