58 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Once again, I fully acknowledge what you are saying, but I was asking specifically about the various points raised in Mark McCann's video, which you never watched and yet still commented on, so that is demonstrating the typical Ostrich principle of head in sand, blow you jack, I'm alright principles that many YouTubers accuse the EV evangelists of doing, and just creating arguments which are completely unnecessary because they have already formulated their opinions and have closed their minds to anything that pose a threat to their viewpoints.

By not actually watching the video and paying attention to the points that Mark is raising, you are just adding more fuel to those arguments and proving them right, surely you must understand that? You are as good as saying that nobody else is right or has any valid points, you're the only one who has it correct! Is that the message that you wish to convey to the world?

To be fair, he only commented on the cobalt aspect. Which is evident from the thumbnail.

Everything else I can see is from talking of one's own experience of actually owning EV. Something I think hold more value than whatever third hand info you discover from social media.

I've watched most of the video. The data privacy aspect is delirious. Their whole point is that due to having a recording device on the incoming supply, supplier will know what you are doing. It then cuts away to talk about Octopus Kraken profits.

The truth in there is that smart meter already doing everything as reported, there's nothing new from EV charge points. Kraken's profit are due to building an innovative energy management system when others are still using traditional power plant style management.

If you are really paranoid, you can also get home battery installed so that it always reads 0.

Tax incentives are nothing unusual, it's one of government's tools to drive change. That section is like a smoker complaining about tax on tobacco.

As for scrappage, the video have not covered the whole story, only interviewing one not specialised repair shop. There's EV Breakers who specalise in dealing with written off EV. There's also industry scaling up to achieve re-use before recycle. For example:

Redwood Energy: Fast, low-cost storage to power the age of AI and a changing grid

27 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Interestingly it seems that LFP batteries are actually worse for the environment than NMC batteries, or so it would seem if you can believe the information put out by the Cobalt Institute In-Use EV Battery LCA - Cobalt Institute.

Cobalt institude say cobalt-free battery are bad? Who would have guessed!

But digging into the numbers, it seems key is (as with all production) having low carbon electricity:

(of course, in conclusion section of the report, they only used the "base case")

Therefore you did take this report at face value, without verifying methodology and trotted it out because you were:

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

just creating arguments which are completely unnecessary because they have already formulated their opinions and have closed their minds to anything that pose a threat to their viewpoints.

34 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

This is why I don't take anything at face value, eg, yesterday Electric Car-Nage put out a YouTube video of a car transporter in America that had 6 Teslas on it being delivered on the trailer, that caught fire. TV channels videos show that the main fire was concentrated on the car above the semi trucks cab, which was also on fire. So was the fire started in the cab and spread to the Tesla? I don't know.

Funny you should say that. Have you tried to verify the source of the fire? Or just parrot whatever you were told on social media?

On Camera, 6 Tesla Cars Burn As Vehicle-Carrier Catches Fire In US

I imagine the logistics company would be suing that kind of statement if the fire didn't start in their diesel truck.

Statistically, the world would see less vehicle fires if all diesel cars were banned.

11 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

To watch the video would mean they get revenue from me watching it.

It is clear from the frontal image that it is out of date and at best badly informed on current tech or more probably trying to suck in saps as clickbait.

As mentioned, NMC batteries are still being used and made. 😞

13 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

As mentioned, NMC batteries are still being used and made. 😞

Absolutely. The Mini Cooper E we bought a few weeks ago is sadly NMC. Hoped it would be LFP like the 40 kwh setup in the R5 but disappointingly not.

LFP would mean it would be fine to charge to 100% rather than being advised to only charge to 80% which means the range after charge is only 150 miles rather than 190 miles ish.

Mini, and Great Wall Motors presumably wanted that bit more energy density that NMC provides rather than LFP.

Sadly with the R4 I am planning to replace the Zoe with the UK is looking like only getting the 52 kwh NMC rather than the 40 kwh LFP option.

NMC will die out quite soon, it is more expensive than LFP and Sodium and it's superiority in energy density is being equaled by LFP & Na with the latest batteries from BYD, CATL & LG.

It is all a minefield.

The personal and private / public transport, land, sea & air. Even clean fuel sources requires dirty practices.

Like all those minefields that are around as around the globe the fighting goes on over land,minerals, oil & gas.

Never being resolved and huge industries are built on wars and minerals and fuels for energy & over water.

All the crap regarding road vehicles in the UK and RoW is not getting sorted out any time soon.

BEV,s are getting cheaper and cheaper and the electricity to power them cheaper and cheaper for some.

Edited 20 August, 202520 Aug by Ootohere

18 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Absolutely. The Mini Cooper E we bought a few weeks ago is sadly NMC. Hoped it would be LFP like the 40 kwh setup in the R5 but disappointingly not.

LFP would mean it would be fine to charge to 100% rather than being advised to only charge to 80% which means the range after charge is only 150 miles rather than 190 miles ish.

Mini, and Great Wall Motors presumably wanted that bit more energy density that NMC provides rather than LFP.

Sadly with the R4 I am planning to replace the Zoe with the UK is looking like only getting the 52 kwh NMC rather than the 40 kwh LFP option.

NMC will die out quite soon, it is more expensive than LFP and Sodium and it's superiority in energy density is being equaled by LFP & Na with the latest batteries from BYD, CATL & LG.

Yes, just as MG and others still use Lithium Ion batteries, (Cobalt), so as per my original post, you are not being open minded and are prepared to condemn that video and its contents based a thumbnail, which is not out of date, but you happy to promote and watch Electric Viking videos, when he is largely talking about info coming manufacturer's with vested interests, is he not getting revenue from that then?

You have just once again shown the points I mentioned earlier and can only really see things from your view point while there are millions who cannot enjoy the benefits that you do, a case I'm alright jack.

Let's hear the Truth about Supercars and the economics of them. I like the Dirty Truth of the North Coast 500 and this includes the supercar drivers behaviour and stupidity of vehicles with tyres that are not readable available but really need to be north of Inverness at the rate ones are being wrecked. Business,s will adapt to cater for them. We loved click bait vids. The McMasters look like health or poor health and travel mostly. How many times can you slag Porsche and EV,s and keep on keeping on driving one?

Edited 20 August, 202520 Aug by Ootohere

13 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, just as MG and others still use Lithium Ion batteries, (Cobalt), so as per my original post, you are not being open minded and are prepared to condemn that video and its contents based a thumbnail, which is not out of date, but you happy to promote and watch Electric Viking videos, when he is largely talking about info coming manufacturer's with vested interests, is he not getting revenue from that then?

You have just once again shown the points I mentioned earlier and can only really see things from your view point while there are millions who cannot enjoy the benefits that you do, a case I'm alright jack.

Not a view point but an current appreciation and future that is clearly there with plummeting EV traction battery prices whether NMC, LFP or Na.

Real facts are to see the obvious trend that EVs are becoming significantly cheaper and better performing year on year whilst ICE has stagnated and is only limping along due to ev hybrid tech bailing them out by lifting their awful inefficient and costly day to day operation out of the mire of horrendous running cost compared to EVs.

Governments happy for buyers to continue to buty hybrids as they are expensive so they get a good VAT take and they will heep buying heavily taxed hydrocarbon fuel.

Good to see rare earth and especially elements which are mined with little to no social responsibility are being phasex out. Just those who use their phones, tablets and other devices that use the NMC batteries realised at what social cost their devices are involved in.

Electric Viking does not always get it right and he is recommending cautious optimism that soon to arrive next generation batteries are not going to be 5 or 10 USD per kwh but 20 USD per kwh is looking like what will come shortly. As we are at around $50 per kwh currently it still means the next generation of electrical traction batteries will wipe the floor on cost, performance, range etc and ICE cars will just be vehicles going to historic motor vehicle meets or driven by the odd enthusiast who does not valve to worry about running cost but has nostalgia for these relics.

Edited 20 August, 202520 Aug by lol-lol

16 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

stupidity of vehicles with tyres that are not readable available but really need to be north of Inverness at the rate ones are being wrecked. Business,s will adapt to cater for them.

Funnily enough, I can get 'OE' 305 rear tyres quite easily for my Jag (which is almost a supercar-although definitely not a hypercar) and yet my PHEV Peugeot was off the road for nearly 5 weeks when I needed a new tyre a couple of years ago. Not one in the whole of the UK. Michelin and Peugeot couldn't help either when I contacted them directly!

Jags are 10 a penny up in the north though. I would quite like a convertible one tonight though for a blast up through the Highlands. Lovely evening

Edited 20 August, 202520 Aug by Ootohere

3 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Jags are 10 a penny up in the north though. I would quite like a convertible one tonight though for a blast up through the Highlands. Lovely evening

I wish mine was 10 a penny, or 0.1p each. I would have pushed the boat out and bought a couple. Rear tyres are rather pricey though, thank goodness the car is limited to 186mph or they would cost more

3 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

I wish mine was 10 a penny, or 0.1p each. I would have pushed the boat out and bought a couple. Rear tyres are rather pricey though, thank goodness the car is limited to 186mph or they would cost more

If they were, I'd join you, I've always loved jags, especially the XJ series. I used to drive my old bosses one years ago, beautiful cars.

On 21/08/2025 at 01:28, Graham Butcher said:

If they were, I'd join you, I've always loved jags, especially the XJ series. I used to drive my old bosses one years ago, beautiful cars.

Sorry if I sound like broken record as have posted before but I miss my Type S even though it is third Ford, third Lincoln and only a third Jaaag and to make it worse I had the smallest engine the 2 5 V6 from the Ford stable and it had cheapo Ford switch gear but I love the looks and the ZF 6 speed gearbox was sweet to......

Popped over to the new charging hub on the south side of the ring road of Droitwich which is only just over 4 miles away from home in north Worcester.

What I wonderful expetlrience. Was teaching my son the process of Public Charging for his Mini Cooper E.

Site has 8 (no) 150 kw Kempower chargers, a Cosco Coffee restaurant and a Sainsbury's local.

Just a training exercise for my laddo so get him to put the Mini on charge, get a couple of hot chocolates and head by home.

Charger hit around 65 kws, small battery and no battery precondition done but warming ambient of low 20's C.

10.25 kws, price of power is 60p per kwh nominally but Electroverse gives 5% discount as well as delayed payment, month or months.

Hot chocolates cost about the same as power up ie about £5.50, mad world.

Edited 24 August, 202524 Aug by lol-lol

11 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Popped over to the new charging hub on the south side of the ring road of Droitwich which is only just over 4 miles away from home in north Worcester.

What I wonderful expetlrience. Was teaching my son the process of Public Charging for his Mini Cooper E.

Site has 8 (no) 150 kw Kempower chargers, a Cosco Coffee restaurant and a Sainsbury's local.

It would be interesting to see if those 8 chargers could actually sustain 8 cars even charging at 100kW, let alone 8 x 150kW.

Edited 24 August, 202524 Aug by Graham Butcher

@lol-lol I always think its odd just how similar the S type in appearance to the Rover 75 which is it self supposed to be a class leader for ride comfort.

If they had been that good when part of BMC and British Leyland, then may be we might still have a motor industry. We used to be world leaders, but like always, we got complacent, workers got lazier and management got ever more greedy and the rest is history.

On 20/08/2025 at 12:42, Graham Butcher said:

Interestingly it seems that LFP batteries are actually worse for the environment than NMC batteries, or so it would seem if you can believe the information put out by the Cobalt Institute In-Use EV Battery LCA - Cobalt Institute.

Their report is attached. Now, I'm no expert in these matters but I'm savvy enough to understand not to attach too much weight to any information coming from any party that has a vested interest in a certain outcome and that is a major problem these days as most reports are produced by such people. If they don't have the expertise themselves, they fund universities etc to come up with the reports for them.

It always pays to whenever possible to follow the money trail and they will often take great lengths to distance themselves from it, but often links within links that lead right back to the people with the vested interest in a certain out come.

This is why I don't take anything at face value, eg, yesterday Electric Car-Nage put out a YouTube video of a car transporter in America that had 6 Teslas on it being delivered on the trailer, that caught fire. TV channels videos show that the main fire was concentrated on the car above the semi trucks cab, which was also on fire. So was the fire started in the cab and spread to the Tesla? I don't know.

CI-Battery-LCA-Report-V5-2.pdf

The fact is, that unless you cycle everywhere on a wooden bicycle and source everything you need within 10 miles of your house using a horse and cart, then you cannot use the cobalt and mining use of Earths minerals argument against EVs.

Cobalt is used in oil refining and the production of oil rig drill bits, not to mention its use in jet engine turbine parts.

All these videos and arguments to try and prove EV production as some kind of evil are a joke.

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It would be interesting to see if those 8 chargers could actually sustain 8 cars even charging at 100kW, let alone 8 x 150kW.

52 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol I always think its odd just how similar the S type in appearance to the Rover 75 which is it self supposed to be a class leader for ride comfort.

If they had been that good when part of BMC and British Leyland, then may be we might still have a motor industry. We used to be world leaders, but like always, we got complacent, workers got lazier and management got ever more greedy and the rest is history.

Suppose to use the shape of the original type us and earlier Jaaaags from the 50s/60s.

Quite handsome i thought but not that close to the 75. I had couple of Rover SD1s, one with the 3 5l v8 and another with the 2.y straight 6.

Use to get about 19 mpg in the 3 5l and 26 mpg in the 2.5l but then HM customs officer were getting 63p a mile allowance, those were the days plus Crown Transer on Housing.

Not a looked like the Jaaag. Opel Manta GTE toped them both. All dirty cars in retrospect.

46 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Suppose to use the shape of the original type us and earlier Jaaaags from the 50s/60s.

Quite handsome i thought but not that close to the 75. I had couple of Rover SD1s, one with the 3 5l v8 and another with the 2.y straight 6.

Use to get about 19 mpg in the 3 5l and 26 mpg in the 2.5l but then HM customs officer were getting 63p a mile allowance, those were the days plus Crown Transer on Housing.

Not a looked like the Jaaag. Opel Manta GTE toped them both. All dirty cars in retrospect.

Yes, but only dirty cars if the old car was scrapped and crushed in order to get the grant. An older car if its still working OK, is considerably cleaner to keep running than it is to buy a new one with all the massive footprint to make it.

16 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, but only dirty cars if the old car was scrapped and crushed in order to get the grant. An older car if its still working OK, is considerably cleaner to keep running than it is to buy a new one with all the massive footprint to make it.

If replaced by another full ICE or hybrid. If replaced by a BEV, even with end to end CO2 analysis the BEV will result in the owner having a lower CO2 in a year or two at average mileage, depending on the EV and it's manufacturer.

I hear rumblings in the UK motor trade the only UK Nissan BEVs are getting the £3750 EV grant and there will be shouts of foul when French EV production is so clean.

Nice to see Jaaaguar putting 18000 solar panels on its Wolverhampton plant, unfortunately that plant produces ICE but presumably it will be converted to BEV part manufacture at some point in the future.

Course it's not just CO2 but NOX is a big issue too.

1 hour ago, classic said:

The fact is, that unless you cycle everywhere on a wooden bicycle and source everything you need within 10 miles of your house using a horse and cart, then you cannot use the cobalt and mining use of Earths minerals argument against EVs.

Cobalt is used in oil refining and the production of oil rig drill bits, not to mention its use in jet engine turbine parts.

All these videos and arguments to try and prove EV production as some kind of evil are a joke.

Well no, the point that everyone seems to be missing (and yes, I understand that LFP batteries don't use Cobalt) is that the EV's are actually increasing the demand for Cobalt, not reducing it. Yes it will still be required for all the other things that it was before. There will be a heavy demand for all kinds of oil based products for many years to come so that demand for Cobalt is not going to go away and die.

So those videos and arguments about EV's being the large driving force in the increased demand for Cobalt and the damage that the mining of it is causing, is like it or not a reality I'm afraid and its about time it was accepted as being factual and not used as a counter argument against ICE vehicles. Which, again, like it it or not have been steadily getting better over the years, more efficient in extracting far more energy from the Dino juice, so a gallon gets you considerably more miles today, then it did before, less C02 and other pollutants as well and that trend was all set to continue.

3 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

If replaced by another full ICE or hybrid. If replaced by a BEV, even with end to end CO2 analysis the BEV will result in the owner having a lower CO2 in a year or two at average mileage, depending on the EV and it's manufacturer.

I hear rumblings in the UK motor trade the only UK Nissan BEVs are getting the £3750 EV grant and there will be shouts of foul when French EV production is so clean.

Nice to see Jaaaguar putting 18000 solar panels on its Wolverhampton plant, unfortunately that plant produces ICE but presumably it will be converted to BEV part manufacture at some point in the future.

Course it's not just CO2 but NOX is a big issue too.

On that score as to when the new BEV breaks even, when the old ICE vehicle it was purchased to replace might well have been a classic car which only tend to be driven for around 2 to 3,000 miles a year, and indeed many other older cars are indeed only used for a few short trips, as many people I know would rather use public transport for their commuting to work etc as many places now have limited parking and public parking is so expensive. So in essence unless you are using the car a lot for work purposes, and doing a good few miles in it, the actual differences may not that much at all.

20 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well no, the point that everyone seems to be missing (and yes, I understand that LFP batteries don't use Cobalt) is that the EV's are actually increasing the demand for Cobalt, not reducing it. Yes it will still be required for all the other things that it was before. There will be a heavy demand for all kinds of oil based products for many years to come so that demand for Cobalt is not going to go away and die.

So those videos and arguments about EV's being the large driving force in the increased demand for Cobalt and the damage that the mining of it is causing, is like it or not a reality I'm afraid and its about time it was accepted as being factual and not used as a counter argument against ICE vehicles. Which, again, like it it or not have been steadily getting better over the years, more efficient in extracting far more energy from the Dino juice, so a gallon gets you considerably more miles today, then it did before, less C02 and other pollutants as well and that trend was all set to continue.

Well if you’re ok with any mining issues as long as it isn’t for EV use I can’t really answer that, in fact I give up.

There are a whole host of unethical, morally wrong things going on in the world and past conflicts, human rights issues etc that have provided oil and materials for our consumption which have all been generally ignored by anti EV people until it fitted their narrative.

If anything now EV use of cobalt is declining as more lfp batteries are used.

It isn’t a rational argument against use of EVs.

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Popped over to the new charging hub on the south side of the ring road of Droitwich which is only just over 4 miles away from home in north Worcester.

What I wonderful expetlrience. Was teaching my son the process of Public Charging for his Mini Cooper E.

Site has 8 (no) 150 kw Kempower chargers, a Cosco Coffee restaurant and a Sainsbury's local.

Just a training exercise for my laddo so get him to put the Mini on charge, get a couple of hot chocolates and head by home.

Charger hit around 65 kws, small battery and no battery precondition done but warming ambient of low 20's C.

10.25 kws, price of power is 60p per kwh nominally but Electroverse gives 5% discount as well as delayed payment, month or months.

Hot chocolates cost about the same as power up ie about £5.50, mad world.

So your 10kw actually cost you £12...

9 minutes ago, classic said:

Well if you’re ok with any mining issues as long as it isn’t for EV use I can’t really answer that, in fact I give up.

There are a whole host of unethical, morally wrong things going on in the world and past conflicts, human rights issues etc that have provided oil and materials for our consumption which have all been generally ignored by anti EV people until it fitted their narrative.

If anything now EV use of cobalt is declining as more lfp batteries are used.

It isn’t a rational argument against use of EVs.

Whoa, I never said I was OK with the mining, you're taking what I said and like many others, putting your own spin on what I said or did not say.

What I said was that EV's had put an increased demand for more Cobalt, the rest is your spin. I'm not anti EV at all, what I'm anti is the forced uptake of the technology before we have learned how to handle the many negatives that also come along with it, to add to the other negatives which we already have.

My understanding is that EV manufacturers now go to some lengths to ensure their batteries have cobalt which is ethically sourced so I would say their (reducing) use of the stuff has improved matters.