Internal Use. (They would not like the toe of a boot right up their jacksy.

Big Dealership groups have done it for a couple of decades.

Your radio Station, locations from the sat nav etc. Illegal use of information.

The barstewards can be quick enough to tell you warranty work done on the car is covered by DATA Protection while they break that as a matter of coarse.

Edited 6 September, 20256 Sep by Ootohere

21 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Don't forget, there is already in place some bans on some electric cars actually being within a fixed distance from certain sensitive locations such as military airfields for example.

12 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

EV cars are being used as mobile spies that could be used to impart all kinds of information to to both hackers and government bodies

The monitoring tech is present in all latest cars. Not just EV's.

The ban for for military base is because the camera system for autonomous driving. But that's unrelated to powertrain itself, autonomous driving happens to be more advanced in EV's than ICE vehicle.

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

This is a channel that I follow and already watched this video, it will be good to see the final conclusion of this repair and just how Tesla play along with this as they will still have the final word in as much as they have the ability to allow this to proceed or shut it down with their remote access to the car, they may even be able to prevent the car from using their chargers at the very least.

There has never been any publicised case that Tesla has remotely disabled crashed/flooded vehicle.

They do have the ability to decline selling very specific parts though, check Rich Rebuilds. In that case, it has effectively made repairing the vehicle impossible. Very poor from right to repair standpoint.

They will also not allow those vehicle on their Tesla supercharging network unless quite expensive inspection had been done. But vehicle can always be rapid charged on other network.

19 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh dear, misunderstood what I said again, you smugly asked the question if there was a way that you could free fuel with diesel or petrol cars?

My reply to that question showed that there was indeed a way of not only doing it, but how they ensure parity for the average user, it just needs the will to do it.

At no point did I actually suggest that I was getting any free fuel.☹️

I was jealous of people who had a Costco card, or had an Asda with slightly cheaper fuel but we are not just talking a pence off few a litre. A Fuel card was a mega benefit for the holder as it effectively made fuel either 20% of full price or 40% of fuel price. Only with the 20% rate of full for diesel or petrol does ne get near the 2p a mile running cost when filling up on cheap overnight electricity.

Later today with the Octopus 2 hours of Free Electricity that will be 14 kwh of electricity on my main EV charger, we get 4.5 miles per kWh on each of the Mini Cooper E, Scenic 63 kwh and Zoe 52 kWh. With the 3.6 kwh Pod Point this will be increasing free tine usage by half again. Could use a 3 KW Granny cable for the 3rd EV but will probably just whack on the immersion for some free heating of the hot water as well as put a couple of kWh into the home batteries. Home will be running on chap or free electricity all day, fridge freezer, big TV etc, and only starting using Grid lecky again at 0030 hours tomorrow when lecky price drops below 9p an hour. All linked to getting and EV and a corresponding tariff.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by lol-lol

Any CCS / DC charger is fine or AC Tethered if you do not have a AC charging cable.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Ootohere

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I was jealous of people who had a Costco card, or had an Asda with slightly cheaper fuel but we are not just talking a pence off few a litre. A Fuel card was a mega benefit for the holder as it effectively made fuel either 20% of full price or 40% of fuel price. Only with the 20% rate of full for diesel or petrol does ne get near the 2p a mile running cost when filling up on cheap overnight electricity.

Later today with the Octopus 2 hours of Free Electricity that will be 14 kwh of electricity on my main EV charger, we get 4.5 miles per kWh on each of the Mini Cooper E, Scenic 63 kwh and Zoe 52 kWh. With the 3.6 kwh Pod Point this will be increasing free tine usage by half again. Could use a 3 KW Granny cable for the 3rd EV but will probably just whack on the immersion for some free heating of the hot water as well as put a couple of kWh into the home batteries. Home will be running on chap or free electricity all day, fridge freezer, big TV etc, and only starting using Grid lecky again at 0030 hours tomorrow when lecky price drops below 9p an hour. All linked to getting and EV and a corresponding tariff.

The thing is that it is not all about finding a cheap electric car in isolation only, the car has to be able to carry all the people you need to, also have the same level of space as its ICE equivalent and also offer the same levels of comfort etc, it is not just the running costs now is it?

I just looked at the Mercedes Benz range of cars that come in both power trains and are the same exact overall dimensions etc, the difference in the on the road price is absolutely staggering, so I would like you to be 100% honest with yourself and the rest of us, to do your homework and tell us, how many miles you would to do in the electric car before you erode the massive cost difference alone. Also be 100% honest and tell how long with your current average yearly mileage, how many years it would take you to do it?

The cars in question are MB GLA180 OTR price £36,230 and the MB EQA Sport+ with OTR price of £49,760, some £13,640 lower price for a car that looks very similar to each other, offers the same space, comfort and are precisely the same physical size (weight excluded) so if one fits in a given size of garage, so will the other, exactly.

I know that that saving would pay for approx 5 to 6 years driving for me, and for people, they would be looking to replace the car long before that time.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Graham Butcher

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The monitoring tech is present in all latest cars. Not just EV's.

The ban for for military base is because the camera system for autonomous driving. But that's unrelated to powertrain itself, autonomous driving happens to be more advanced in EV's than ICE vehicle.

Not strictly true, just for a starter, the only camera on my car is the built-in one on the windscreen for lane departure function.

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

There has never been any publicised case that Tesla has remotely disabled crashed/flooded vehicle.

They do have the ability to decline selling very specific parts though, check Rich Rebuilds. In that case, it has effectively made repairing the vehicle impossible. Very poor from right to repair standpoint.

They will also not allow those vehicle on their Tesla supercharging network unless quite expensive inspection had been done. But vehicle can always be rapid charged on other network.

But if they restrict its access to their own charging network, the repaired car instantly drops in value to anybody as that is one of the reasons for owning a Tesla, is the ability to charge at their large network and at their lower rates.

38 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The thing is that it is not all about finding a cheap electric car in isolation only, the car has to be able to carry all the people you need to, also ave the same level of space as its ICE equivalent and also offer the same levels of comfort etc, it is not just the running costs now is it?

I just looked at the Mercedes Benz range of cars that come in both power trains and are the same exact overall dimensions etc, the difference in the on the road price is absolutely staggering, so I would like you to be 100% honest with yourself and the rest of us, to do your homework and tell us, how many miles you would to do in the electric car before you erode the massive cost difference alone. Also be 100% honest and tell how long with your current average yearly mileage, how many years it would take you to do it?

The cars in question are MB GLA180 OTR price £36,230 and the MB EQA Sport+ with OTR price of £49,760, some £13,640 lower price for a car that looks very similar to each other, offers the same space, comfort and are precisely the same physical size (weight excluded) so if one fits in a given size of garage, so will the other, exactly.

I know that that saving would pay for approx 5 to 6 years driving for me, and for people, they would be looking to replace the car long before that time.

What you say in the first paragraph is why I went for the Scenic, loads of space but also very reasonable price and that's why it won European Car of the Year last year.

Now I gave been surprised with both the Renault 5 and R4, R5 winning Europen Car of the Year this year because video find them compromised in space in the back which to me excludes them from being COTY cars.

Mercedes are premium brand cars and I would not even put them on my potential buy list for a host of reasons, value being high up the list.

Audi and BMW the same but I do understand why Germans buy them particularly. I was in Berlin last year, taxi back to the airport and the driver, Turkish of course, laughed at electric cars as they were unsuitable for the autobahn unless in a high spec which usually means 2 speed gearbox instead of single speed like most EVs. I get it.

EV tend to need to be designed from ground up and not ICE chassis conversions, that does not work. Original Merc ECQ was a mess, chassis had a pipe tunnel, weighed far too much, not a good car IMO.

I am more interested in mainstream cars and even hybrid ones and not just EVs. Be interesting to see how the new petrol electric Qasqui does as it is getting rave reviews. Sunderland made up to a quarter million a year in the past and that was great for uk jobs. If the new LEAF is a success too that will be great for UK and hopefully they are roomy cars and not cramped for taller than average people like the R5 and R4 are.

We are approaching the time when few us will have cars let alone EVs. If you want a car for a short or long journey then one will hail it via an App, it will turn up driverless and take you to your destination and you will probably sit in the back.

I will be trying again the Megane e as a second car, tried one a couple of years ago, pretty nippy with its 220 hp but now it it's revised form it is now one peddle driving capable, bit more range and can be had for £29k on zero interest finance for 4 years. Roomy in the front, not do good in the back but better than R4 and R5. I like the SEAT Born and will benchmark the Megane against the Born which was looking expensive but everybody has sharpener their pencils but Audi, BMW and Mercedes look increasingly out of touch so unless one is prepared to pay 1,2 or more hundreds a month for what is oft an inferior product than mainstream brands, other European, Korean, Tesla or even Chinese brand.

Be interesting to see which hybrids can compete with BEVs and these ones with 80 miles and more electric range are enticing buyers it can be seen.

There are Tesla that have free Supercharging for the life of the car. There are drivers of Tesla that might never use a Tesla Supercharger or be in the vicinity to use Tesla Supercharger. There is none is the area between Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness or Aviemore. Some might just not use public charging. No Tesla Superchargers north of Inverness, plenty Tesla about that might not head south to Inverness including on Islands.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Ootohere

@lol-lol Interesting as your reply is, it still does not address the question I asked does it?

The Scenic is not available as an ICE car so you are not comparing apples with apples. In fact it is about as much use as me thinking a Skoda Enyaq which is an all electric car is the same as my Skoda Kodiaq when the actual dimensions are as follows:

Enyaq 4649 x 1879 x 1616mm with 585 litres boot capacity.

Kodiaq 4758 x 1864 x 1659mm with 2035 litres boot capacity.

I suggest that you were deliberately only looking for electric cars when you selected the Scenic as your car of choice. You can only really be fair when doing a comparison when the option of both power trains is there and hence my selection of the Mercedes Benz. Your throwaway comment of the Mercedes Benz being a premium brand is not the point, the point is the buyer might be looking at a premium brand range of cars, and in that scenario is also highly unlikely to be keeping the car any longer than 3 years before buying another new model. Is that buyer going to be willing to accept a potential higher loss on their investment at the end of 3 years by opting for the electric version (given that EV residual values drop like a stone).

The big difference between most ICE owners and EV owners is that EV owners generally do seem to be incapable of understanding the differences in real terms between the 2 types and they quickly turn the discussion towards other issues, such as running costs, charging while your sleeping etc. On the other hand the ICE owners tend to be a bit clued up about about both types as there will simply loads of ICE owners who would love to be able own an EV but as has been already mentioned before many people, we are currently a nation of the "haves" v the "have nots" when it comes to the ability of home charging, and thus is a REAL barrier to more ICE owners making the switch.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Graham Butcher

Are there any EV drivers / Owners on here that have had a licence less than 10 years & not had Diesel or Petrol car?

?

Do ICE drivers / owners that have not had or drive EV,s really know more than those that have had or driven?

• i have my opinion on who,s opinion is not worth a bag of magic beans.*

Important is who and where. Choices.

Business users with Tax incentives driving EV,s or those with Home / Work Place or cheap charging.

Even private users if no home charger and paying Standard tariff on a 3 pin. 10 kWh is £3.00 & might take you 35-50 miles.

Public charging for 50 pence a kWh then £5.00 for that 35-50 miles.

Maybe free parking or other benefits of driving an EV.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Ootohere

Enyaq The boot has a capacity of 585 litres with the rear bench in place and 1,710 with it folded.

Kodiaq In five-seater models the boot measures a giant 910 litres, one of the largest of any SUV; if you’ve got two extra seats folded into the boot floor, this drops a touch to 845 litres but it’s still huge. With all seven seats upright there’s 340 litres of space.With all the rear seats folded you get up to 2,105 litres of room

13 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Even private users if no home charger and paying Standard tariff on a 3 pin. 10 kWh is £3.00 & might take you 35-50 miles.

Public charging for 50 pence a kWh then £5.00 for that 35-50 miles.

Maybe free parking or other benefits of driving an EV.

But that still requires the ability to park your car off the road and within reach of a available 13A socket which is a luxury that still huge amounts of people do not enjoy, and of course it takes far longer to charge on a 13A lead true?

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Graham Butcher

^^^ Obviously. Even to an ICE driver or BEV / PHEV driver.

Did you read the bottom 2 lines of my post?

Maybe needs charged on a PodPoint or similar AC public charger at 44 - 50 pence a kWh.

Maybe a DC at that tariff.

As there are people doing.

Not disputing that there are people doing it, but that takes away the big bonus point that so many of you EV'ers rant and rave over, the ability to charge while you sleep and set off in the morning with a fresh cheap as chips (and no free lecky) charge which is a clear advantage over ICE cars, not that 5 minutes at filling station cannot cure and provide a full tank.

Also, if you have declare to the insurance company that your PHEV is actually parked/stored overnight at some random charging location, will increase your premiums.

These are all points that every owner of a car, regardless of its power plant also have to consider.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Graham Butcher

'Just say no'. If it is not sensible, not financially viable to drive or buy something then do not.

Say no to InstaVolt & sitting the car for an hour maybe while shopping or at gym etc for 50 kW @ 54 pence a kWh 8 pm to 7am. 200 miles added maybe.

Or if you have a bigger battery and fast charging maybe 300 miles in 90 minutes at places.

More than half of all registered private vehicles in the UK are likely parked on streets or car parks or car lots at random places.

Regardless of what those Insuring cars tell the insurer.

Then Reps / Travellers / contractors etc will be parking where ever whenever if they work away & stay away from home some of the week..

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Ootohere

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

There are Tesla that have free Supercharging for the life of the car. There are drivers of Tesla that might never use a Tesla Supercharger or be in the vicinity to use Tesla Supercharger. There is none is the area between Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness or Aviemore. Some might just not use public charging. No Tesla Superchargers north of Inverness, plenty Tesla about that might not head south to Inverness including on Islands.

Yes, I accept that is the case, Johhny Smith of the Late Brake Show has one with free charging for life, but even without it, it still remains a major draw for other customers towards the Tesla brand, for instance for a long time, here in Chelmsford, there was only the Tesla super chargers at their premises in the North of the city and remarkably there is a huge concentration of Tesla owners on the estates around that location as opposed to the rest of the city.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Graham Butcher

Have you noticed there is a world & UK outside Chelmsford.

You bought a Kodiaq. Job done, fill her up and off you can go, many miles, then filler her up.

4 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Regardless of what those Insuring cars tell the insurer.

Then Reps / Travellers / contractors etc will be parking where ever whenever if they work away & stay away from home some of the week..

The thing is that if you are the owner of said car and you lie to the insurer about where your car is kept overnight, then you also accept that they will have the perfect excuse not to pay out in the event of a claim being made by you.

As to Reps/Travellers/Contractors then you must also understand that for the majority of those they will not be the ones responsible for the insurance, that will the companies who own/lease the cars, and so is the risk if they fail to provide adequate cover.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Graham Butcher

7 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Have you noticed there is a world & UK outside Chelmsford.

You bought a Kodiaq. Job done, fill her up and off you can go, many miles, then filler her up.

Now that is not the attitude to take is it? I thought this was an open debate, not an ICE owner V EV owner and does absolutely nothing to help / assist more people to make the move over to electric when it seems that EV owners cannot or are not willing to enter into free discussions where both sides of the divide may actually learn something via the discourse.

Also of course you also have a foot in both camps do you not, with your diesel BMW estate for the longer trips and electric for other others, when that itself is a luxury that many will not be able to afford, many struggle to run one car even.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Graham Butcher

Obviously. So do not lie to insurers..

But regardless of National Statistics 60% of households do not have Private Off Road Parking.

But 100 % of home owners/ tenants do not have vehicles.

Then we have no idea how many EV drivers have off street / private drive parking.

@Graham Butcher No diesel anymore, just a low annual mileage Suzuki petrol. & when it goes the EV will replace it.

When the MINI from Motability goes it will be a Van / Camper i get, likely not Electric.

& when being used it will not be parked at home.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Ootohere

Yes lieing to insurers is not to be reccomended, but the point I was making, badly it seems, is that it is likely to have a negative effect on the premium you pay and needs to be added to cost of EV ownership.

While it is also true that ever home has a car, I would expect that the actual figure that doesn't have car is something in the order of 20%.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Graham Butcher

'Likely' means nothing. Is it a major difference parked off road compared to onroad?

Location location location, Postcode lottery. 1 mile apart can make a diiffence.

And expensive cars on drives and damage from building, slates / trees is an issue.

Then Business Owners / Fraud claims is an issue.

We know how many people in the UK. Well we as in The Government should'

We know how many have a driving licence, just not how many drive.

Many have a car, or 2, or some have 3 or maybe 200.

So really it is insurers that should know how many insured cars and drivers insured, Fleet / Group Insurance etc etc.

There is one thing about public charging. You have some proof you or the car was there, but no guarantee really what car it was that was charging.

Sometimes CCTV, sometimes lighting and security.

Its all a lottery. There are millions of vehicles parked on the Public Highways in the UK daytime an night time.

All needs taken with a pinch of salt.

& plenty drivers have no driving licence.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by Ootohere

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol Interesting as your reply is, it still does not address the question I asked does it?

The Scenic is not available as an ICE car so you are not comparing apples with apples. In fact it is about as much use as me thinking a Skoda Enyaq which is an all electric car is the same as my Skoda Kodiaq when the actual dimensions are as follows:

Enyaq 4649 x 1879 x 1616mm with 585 litres boot capacity.

Kodiaq 4758 x 1864 x 1659mm with 2035 litres boot capacity.

I suggest that you were deliberately only looking for electric cars when you selected the Scenic as your car of choice. You can only really be fair when doing a comparison when the option of both power trains is there and hence my selection of the Mercedes Benz. Your throwaway comment of the Mercedes Benz being a premium brand is not the point, the point is the buyer might be looking at a premium brand range of cars, and in that scenario is also highly unlikely to be keeping the car any longer than 3 years before buying another new model. Is that buyer going to be willing to accept a potential higher loss on their investment at the end of 3 years by opting for the electric version (given that EV residual values drop like a stone).

The big difference between most ICE owners and EV owners is that EV owners generally do seem to be incapable of understanding the differences in real terms between the 2 types and they quickly turn the discussion towards other issues, such as running costs, charging while your sleeping etc. On the other hand the ICE owners tend to be a bit clued up about about both types as there will simply loads of ICE owners who would love to be able own an EV but as has been already mentioned before many people, we are currently a nation of the "haves" v the "have nots" when it comes to the ability of home charging, and thus is a REAL barrier to more ICE owners making the switch.

A car should be designed ad either EV or ICE and to use the same chassis you end up with abominations like the original EQC. The different components require different allocation of space.

3 years ago I chose the Renault Arkana over other cars. Quite spacious, capable of 60 mpg on average and cheap to buy ie a bit over £26k.

Now EVs, in most mainstream marques are similar RRPs to the ICE equivalent in the manufactures range, ie Austral and Rafeala, but far cheaper to run and as companies have to aomim to hit the 28% of sales EV mandate they offer low of zero percentage finance like i am looking at with the Megane e.

Currently pulling 14 kWs during this free electricity period and expect to add 60 miles of range to the Scenic and 30 miles to the Zoe plus the charging of the home batteries so expecting a credit of a fiver or so. Suppose I am powering those devices ie fridge and TV, only wish I could watch the cricket ODI, BSB, F1, MOTOGP and WSB at the same time.

Edited 7 September, 20257 Sep by lol-lol

Don't forget the wealth divide?

• In 2024, the highest income quintiles had the largest proportion of adults being main car drivers with 67% of adults in households in the second highest income quintile and 66% of adults in households in the highest income quintile. This compares to adults in households in the lowest income quintile where 41% were a main car driver.

• Around 32% of adults in households in the lowest income quintile had no car access, this compares to 12% of adults in adults in the highest income quintile.

12 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Don't forget the wealth divide?

• In 2024, the highest income quintiles had the largest proportion of adults being main car drivers with 67% of adults in households in the second highest income quintile and 66% of adults in households in the highest income quintile. This compares to adults in households in the lowest income quintile where 41% were a main car driver.

• Around 32% of adults in households in the lowest income quintile had no car access, this compares to 12% of adults in adults in the highest income quintile.

In some UK places, poor areas with old terraced houses, there is not the need for cars as use of The Tube or other public transport systems. Current generations are the last to own specific transport as it will make no economic sense to do so once, in a few years time, cars will be called to ones home via am App and take you where you want to go and then go back to a car pool and you call on the App again when you wish to return home. No of cars in the UK could drop from whatever it is now, 30M or so, to a fifth of that ad that would be all that is needed.