1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Ditto here as well, but we still know nothing, apparently 😉

You must it seems have had or driven an EV before you can comment, an engineering background and majority of ones working life don't hack it.

Helps, the EV familiarity and Engineering qualifications and experience.

Not sure what is meant by the hacking it, please explain ?

Going to watch the Liverpool v Villa game now and got to be up early to pop off and getting wedding suit sorted so enough banter for now...

Edited 1 November, 20251 Nov by lol-lol

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Now imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and there was a thread called "The truth about ICE cars" and the people with ICE cars were constantly posting things about how good their cars were and at the same rubbishing anyone with an EV, and it was deemed that EVs were from a political point of view, to be the enemy and sales of new EVs were being banned?

IF that were true, for example, overwhelming new research says ICE cars are better than EV with respect to climate change. I honestly don't see any problem, I'll evaluate evidences and make appropriate decision based on all the new evidence available to me.

No one is know-it-all. Just need to be humble and accept changing world based on new evidences.

On the rubbishing part, I don't think that's a fair assessment of what has been gone on in this area of the forum. Comparisons had been made as people switched or trying to show the differences, but I don't think targeted attacks were done to make specific individuals owning ICE cars feel bad.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

No one is know-it-all.

Unfortunately there is one person on this forum who does profess to know it all... From his familiarity, qualifications, experiences... Oh and many jobs. 😉

Edited 1 November, 20251 Nov by skomaz

Oh my god. This is definitely now the bitchiest busiest thread on here.

Guys,

Seriously ease up on all the personal slagging and unveiled insults! Colin is big on self regulation but as we know when things get very dirty he and the mods will step in and force a ceasefire.. I only pop in here every few days and in the 4 days since my last advice there’s been 6 more pages of just pure arguments and insults fired back and forth.

It’s gonna get locked if ye don’t start breathing more slowly before posting.

Here’s a line

————————————————

Now, why not pretend the previous 435 pages of bickering doesn’t exist and start again with some civility?

New line and attitudes start here? Or I will report this…

———————————————————

That’s that then. It was all just a scam and some of us actually fell for it. Embarrassing.

Thanks Graham, I don’t think anymore needs to be said I’ll be the first to acknowledge being taken in.

32 minutes ago, classic said:

That’s that then. It was all just a scam and some of us actually fell for it. Embarrassing.

Thanks Graham, I don’t think anymore needs to be said I’ll be the first to acknowledge being taken in.

I would not go as far as that at this stage, but I hope that the official documents that are mentioned in the first video do in fact materialise, it has been requested many times for the links to those documents are published.

What I was trying to draw attention to is that it could all be a huge scam if these documents exist.

The scaremongering about rising sea levels most certainly is a scam and forms a part of the whole Net-Zero theory and policy, and as I said, this is something that each one of us can prove is a scam by placing ice cubes in a glass of water, marking the water level on the glass and when the ice has melted, the water level will be exactly the same. So why are the authorities lying to us? It should at least make us all think about it.

Edited 2 November, 20252 Nov by Graham Butcher

I love when people roll out the “an ice berg melting doesn’t raise sea levels, so the Arctic melting won’t change anything!” argument, because it’s like listening to a flat earther describe why the horizon isn’t real. Loads of technobabble and science words, but doesn’t actually hold water (hah, water humour) when applied to actual science.

Yes, It’s true, the Arctic SEA ICE melting isn’t itself a major risk factor for rising sea levels, because it is an ocean.

However 2 things -

1) the reduction in the annual surface area of artic sea ice IS indicative of rising average temperatures. I hope why is fairly self explanatory.

2) the glaciers that are melting in, eg, Greenland and the Antarctic are ON land. So when they melt and fall into the ocean that water DOES cause an increase in the oceanic water volume thus DOES cause sea levels to rise. And the volume of water frozen in those glaciers is HUGE, so all of them melting or just sliding into the sea will be a major rise in levels.

It’s been asked in several other threads to not post unsupported or just down right wrong information. So here’s another reminder for in here too. If a report or study or experiment has not had its results peer reviewed and accepted as accurate there’s a good chance it’s ****e science or comes with an agenda.

@mac11irl I just simply ask you to do the little experiment with ice cubes floating in a glass of water, mark the level of the water with the ice cubes floating and then wait till the cubes melt and check the water level again, is it the same or lower? It could well be lower as some water may have evaporated, it certainly won't be higher. So how will the ice caps cause sea/ocean levels to rise?

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@mac11irl I just simply ask you to do the little experiment with ice cubes floating in a glass of water, mark the level of the water with the ice cubes floating and then wait till the cubes melt and check the water level again, is it the same or lower? It could well be lower as some water may have evaporated, it certainly won't be higher. So how will the ice caps cause sea/ocean levels to rise?

My post literally explained why that analogy is pointless. And is bunk science used to form a narrative of climate change denial.

Here’s a better experiment

Put a jam jar lid on a small plate.

Pour water onto the plate around the lid, to just below the top of the lid.

Put the ice cubes on the lid.

Wait for them to melt and then see how that water level is around your jam lid island…

That is what happens when the ON LAND glaciers melt.

As for “documents that prove the scam” that will NEVER be released because they probably don’t exist…

Actual documents and studies exist and are available to read showing that Exxon knew fossil fuel consumption was causing climate change in the 70s and how they could bury the truth and then position themselves to take advantage of (profit from) the changes they were predicting into the future.

So, I advise you go and read some actual peer reviewed science papers on the subject and stop posting misinformation or I’ll report the posts for spreading misinformation.

Hopefully NASA are reliable source...

https://sealevel.nasa.gov/news/261/melting-ocean-ice-affects-sea-level-unlike-ice-cubes-in-a-glass/

1 minute ago, Lee01 said:

Hopefully NASA are reliable source...

https://sealevel.nasa.gov/news/261/melting-ocean-ice-affects-sea-level-unlike-ice-cubes-in-a-glass/

Oh Lee, not you too… NASA aren’t a reliable source of REAL science information 🤦🏼‍♂️

🤣🤣

26 minutes ago, mac11irl said:

Oh Lee, not you too… NASA aren’t a reliable source of REAL science information 🤦🏼‍♂️

🤣🤣

But who is a reliable source then? It seems to me that there is some truth in all the sources so far put forward, including the ice cubes in a glass, and clearly the one that you suggested is going to make some level difference as it is land based ice, so it will flow into the sea, but that much to cause widespread flooding worldwide and put human existence at risk? I doubt that a lot.

The earths surface is 29% land and 71% is ocean, so how high are these glaciers and with all that much ocean it might make a couple of mm increase in level surely it can't realistically be more?

Edited 3 November, 20253 Nov by Graham Butcher

@Graham Butcher

Please stop banging on about ice cubes in a glass as being an accurate analogy for melting sea ice. It’s been debunked a hundred times by actual scientists.

If you want to find reliable information you just need to look for peer reviewed science papers and journals. Why? Because the peer review process is what weeds out crap studies and shady practices like P-Hacking. Some lad making YouTube videos in his kitchen is probably not getting his content peer reviewed or fact checked before uploading.

AntarcticGlaciers.org

What is the global volume of land ice and how is it chang...

Most (99.5%) of the permanent ice in the world is locked up in ice sheets and glaciers. The Antarctic Ice Sheet is the largest store of frozen freshwater; it would raise sea levels by 58.3 m on ful...

Link above shows that nearly 10% of the world’s surface area is covered just by the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets. And they are well over 500m thick in parts.

So spread that out across the total earths surface in a full melt and basic maths - 50m rise in water level ignoring existing land mass area just putting the depth of ice as water everywhere.

I’m not sending you this stuff as a PM, not to join in the public personal attacks that I’ve been asking everyone to stop but because I think it’s important for everyone to see this and realise what I’m trying to get across.

The amount of terrible science that gets reported on as fact without proper review or replication of results is infuriating. And pseudoscience lives in the crap experimentation.

Here’s a good place to start learning how much junk science is out there -

https://www.skepdic.com/

All compiled by actual scientists, experts in the fields who use the scientific method in their work and researchers who examine actual evidence not just hearsay etc to find answers.

I've seen the line, and decided to hit the report button.

By the way, there is a climate thread in my signature with all the facts and figures.

I had considered the Renault 4 but found it still small in the back seats, if I ever get demoted to there, probably had a drink or two so a trade off but the Frontier looks a better buy than the R4 and stunning value. The EV is £2K less than the ICE- Hybrid version I gather.

Not usually a Stellantis fan but the 308 EV I had in Lisbon was quite nice and this Frontera does look very useful and very good value, as a second car for me (but probably going ahead with the R5 today).

I imagine its motorway economy in the EV version is going to be pretty bad and similar to the Citroen C3 e and other members of the family and in those cases where motorway is oft used or the Frontera was the only car one had then the hybrid option would seem a logical choice. Tiny hybrid battery like my Arkana was ie sub 1 kwh but still helps mpg round town. No speed demon but a useful all rounded in EV or hybrid form for relatively not a lot on money ?

The Vauxhall Frontier BEV is indeed cheaper than ICE-hybrid, shattering the old view that EV's are more expensive than ICE cars.

I've also seen reports of £2k cheaper, however it's not the case when I looked it up.

https://store.vauxhall.co.uk/selector/configurable/frontera-suv/design/electric-44kwh-113ps-automatic-with-fixed-gear-electric/carbon-black-metallic-paint/grey-cloth-seats?channel=b2c

Not that I'd ever consider a Stellantis car:

Unnecessarily coding hardware to vehicle is not unique to EV's though.

Fitting the replacement is hard work due to van shape, but what actually needs doing seems straightforward: mainly disconnect cables and reconnect cables. We really need more trained (don't lick the orange cables) garage technicians to work on EV's at all indie garages, it not rocket science.

Good job then that the Frontera is cramped in the rear, as it has a very similar frontal impact area of a Kodiaq, bad for pedestrians, but I'm not seeing the electric acceleration that could leave ICE cars behind at the traffic lights, 60kw Scenic, 12.8sec 0-62mph, Kodiaq diesel 148bhp diesel 9.8secs and your Zoe is 9.5secs. That makes both the Scenic and Zoe respond in a similar vein to the average ICE car.

Just hope that this new Frontera is better built than its predecessor was.

13 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Good job then that the Frontera is cramped in the rear, as it has a very similar frontal impact area of a Kodiaq, bad for pedestrians, but I'm not seeing the electric acceleration that could leave ICE cars behind at the traffic lights, 60kw Scenic, 12.8sec 0-62mph, Kodiaq diesel 148bhp diesel 9.8secs and your Zoe is 9.5secs. That makes both the Scenic and Zoe respond in a similar vein to the average ICE car.

Just hope that this new Frontera is better built than its predecessor was.

Be hard to be worse reputation than the original ICE Frontera.

Not sure where you got the 0-62 time for my Scenic. 8.6s claimed but two measurements average out as 9.1 s to 100 kph so about 8.8 to 60 mph https://zeperfs.com/en/fiche12689-renault-scenic-v-e-tech-ev60.htm

I thought it looked quite roomy in the back for a C segment car. This is the strong point of EV Frontera, Citroen C3 e etc and poor acceleration and poor high speed energy use is part of the package but to some people 12s 0-100 kph i s fine for them but I suspect when fully loaded it will be poor and even struggle up hills but for relatively small money, also Vauxhall were throwing in £500 charging as part of the package so incredible cheap running cost.

Picking up Renault 5, Pop Yellow sadly instead of the Pop Green I preferred but hey ho. Even with "only" 120 hp it still does 0-60 in 9 second, handles well with multi link suspension on the rear. Just not great for giants in the back but that is what the Scenic is for.

The actual 0-62 time is sometimes not accurate and they are faster than advertised / published, then the is the 'Lack of traction' Lack of acceleration!.

Potential max Power / Torque and the acceleration speed of Stellantis or others EV,s, Family cars, Taxis, Vans etc really does not matter on real roads in towns / cities as there can be wet / slick roads and the ECO Bias tyres that are fitted. Ones to give max range. Also SPORTY ones on Sporty Models that might have Limited Slip Diffs as the Hot Hatch ones are now available with.

Same with Hybrids or just ICE vehicles.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Good job then that the Frontera is cramped in the rear, as it has a very similar frontal impact area of a Kodiaq, bad for pedestrians, but I'm not seeing the electric acceleration that could leave ICE cars behind at the traffic lights, 60kw Scenic, 12.8sec 0-62mph, Kodiaq diesel 148bhp diesel 9.8secs and your Zoe is 9.5secs. That makes both the Scenic and Zoe respond in a similar vein to the average ICE car.

Just hope that this new Frontera is better built than its predecessor was.

Oh, look, BEV are cheaper. Time to move the goal post to acceleration even though you previously said it doesn't matter.

Yes, I think the pop yellow appears to be the best colour for the Renault 5, which also has some very good throwbacks to the original 5, which is good, not like the dreadful Capri.

The dreadful Capri EV is lovely to drive, IMO and the last of the ICE were built nearly 40 years ago so many EV drivers were not even born then.

I tried a dreadful MG4 XPower a few days ago. Like sh!t off shovel and all-wheel drive but really needs better tyres fitted.

Both available at getting on for 'Much cheapness' used and will be getting cheaper by each month and quarter as plenty about for sale.

That Ford Capri, which is lovely to drive, is actually not a real Ford, it is based on the VW MEB platform and is basically a rebadged VW ID5 and much of the car is made up from parts of the ID4 and ID5, in much the same way as the old Ford Galaxy and the VW Sharan and the Seat Alhambra of the day.

&? I have a Ford Dealership 1 mile away and a VW one 17 miles.

It has Ford Badge & you insure it as a Ford & Ford import them.

Many a VW is a SEAT, Skoda or Audi and some are Fords like the Pickups.

ICE Vauxhall Frontera - Izuzu MU.

Edited 5 November, 20255 Nov by Evolution13

Yep, just as the Ford KA and Fiat 500 are basically the same, there is so much cooperation these days.

Edited 5 November, 20255 Nov by Graham Butcher