3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Just a thought, apart from the obvious social divide on display here from @lol-lol and @wyx087 which puts them further up the ladder economically then most people, but don't you have to be a certified A/C engineer to mess about with heat pumps and use specialised gear in order to test for leaks at pressure to prevent the restricted and regulated gases from escaping into the environment?

Don't thing so.

It is just like fitting an air con unit.

Screw it to the wall, plug it in, use some hosing to access external airspace. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Edited 9 November, 20259 Nov by lol-lol

6 hours ago, Evolution13 said:

So still the Social Divide.

Not only those that can not charge an EV where they live / where their home is for 'much cheapness'.

Now we are considering & discussing those that can generate their own electricity for charging vehicles or heating / powering their residence after spending on the stuff needed to do that.

Maybe the Office for Statistics or whoever can give the % of those with offroad access for taking vehicles to charge and then those that have solar panels at the property.

If they do not know they can make a guesstimate, or just publish any old figure.

They can use AI and maybe come up with those with Solar Panels but no vehicle access to the property. Then those places like Farms / Race Tracks / Hospitals / Schools / Crems etc with Turbines and or Solar panels.

6 hours ago, Evolution13 said:

So still the Social Divide.

Not only those that can not charge an EV where they live / where their home is for 'much cheapness'.

Now we are considering & discussing those that can generate their own electricity for charging vehicles or heating / powering their residence after spending on the stuff needed to do that.

Maybe the Office for Statistics or whoever can give the % of those with offroad access for taking vehicles to charge and then those that have solar panels at the property.

If they do not know they can make a guesstimate, or just publish any old figure.

They can use AI and maybe come up with those with Solar Panels but no vehicle access to the property. Then those places like Farms / Race Tracks / Hospitals / Schools / Crems etc with Turbines and or Solar panels.

Why, for what purpose?

@lol-lol For the same purpose that false statistics are trotted out now by the Government or Politicians or those with a financial interest.

This time it would maybe show that it is those and such as those that benefit most.

The haves get more and more for less, and those at the lower statuses as far as wealth / income get shafted.

Car registrations and those declared offroad when no private buyer has turned a mile in them is something that needs looked at much closer.

Don't know what the Worcester wally, not me but Geoff Buys Cars, is alluding at but here is the SMMT Oct 25 data but he cannot seem to understand the simple numbers.....

Petrol down, Diesel fizzling out, BEV well up, PHEV up, mild hybrids up a bit.

Personally been really hard to get hold of an R5 as they are in such high demand, almost no discount. The numbers don't lie still bit to go to run at the 28% BEV but we are waiting a bunch of new EVs in 2026.

Edited 9 November, 20259 Nov by lol-lol

15 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Don't what the Worcester wally, not me but Geoff Buys Cars, but cannot seem to understand numbers.....

Petrol down, Diesel fizzling out, BEV well up, PHEV up,mild hybrids up a bit.

Personally been really hard to get hold of an R5 as they are in such high demand, almost no discount. The numbers don't lie still bit to go to run at the 28% BEV but we are waiting a bunch of new EVs in 2026.

Like I said, I haven't checked the numbers personally, but also it would seem that there is a mismatch somewhere, but you are just what the officials want, someone who will just accept what the SMMT etc are saying without seeking further evidence, your other Worcester wally (your words, not mine) has drilled down using the very database that the police would also use to prove that a car is both registered and taxed, appears to say otherwise to what SMMT are saying, so where does the real truth lay??

Also, as mentioned before, my Sister in Law was after a new petrol Toyota a while ago and was told that they are not available so had to settle for a new hybrid instead, not a PHEV or a BEV, although both were freely available. So is this not a case of the dealers, deliberately pushing the move towards electric by stating that petrol/diesels are not available, by artificially creating a shortage of them in order to try and hit their annual quota of new energy car sales?

I wonder if at the end of the year, if they have hit their electric quota, if ICE versions will miraculously suddenly appear in order to hit bonuses?

Edited 9 November, 20259 Nov by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Like I said, I haven't checked the numbers personally, but also it would seem that there is a mismatch somewhere, but you are just what the officials want, someone who will just accept what the SMMT etc are saying without seeking further evidence, your other Worcester wally (your words, not mine) has drilled down using the very database that the police would also use to prove that a car is both registered and taxed, appears to say otherwise to what SMMT are saying, so where does the real truth lay??

Also, as mentioned before, my Sister in Law was after a new petrol Toyota a while ago and was told that they are not available so had to settle for a new hybrid instead, not a PHEV or a BEV, although both were freely available. So is this not a case of the dealers, deliberately pushing the move towards electric by stating that petrol/diesels are not available, by artificially creating a shortage of them in order to try and hit their annual quota of new energy car sales?

I wonder if at the end of the year, if they have hit their electric quota, if ICE versions will miraculously suddenly appear in order to hit bonuses.

The SMMT is just a trade body, no political axe to help government. I think we miss the point with much of their data and some of it is interesting. Sadly much of it one has to pay for over and above the those big headline data ie 10 ten selling models and PowerPoint like slides of break down of registrations by fuel type. Some of the motoring press clearly but the data and make some good points. Here was a Auto-express article of a few days ago.....

1. Important points are ICE cars still populate the top ten and

2. The Chinese are coming

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/368223/renault-5-outsells-tesla-model-y-both-are-beaten-jaecoo-7

Renault’s retro hatchback topped the EV sales charts in October, but even it couldn’t come close to internal-combustion alternatives from China

By:Tom Jervis

5 Nov 2025

Retro charm has beaten futuristic minimalism, after the Renault 5 outsold the Tesla Model Y in October. However, both EV titans were overtaken by a petrol-powered and punchily priced newcomer from China, suggesting value for money remains more of a priority for British buyers than lower carbon emissions. In October, the UK’s best-selling electric car was the quirky Renault 5 hatchback, with the French firm’s managing director, Adam Wood, describing it as “a game-changer, desirable for being as fun to look at as it is to drive, and as appealing to the head as much as to the heart. It is not just a best-selling electric car: it is a car that buyers are flocking to irrespective of its powertrain.”

• 

  Best-selling cars 2025: the year's 10 most popular models

Such bumper sales mean that almost half (49 per cent) of Renault’s UK sales last month were fully electric, with one in four of all new cars registered in October – regardless of brand – being zero emissions. Even so, this still wasn’t enough to bump the Renault, or any other EVs for that matter, into the top 10 sellers list; the best-selling car overall in October was (surprise, surprise) the Ford Puma. Perhaps most interesting, however, was that China's Jaecoo 7 was the nation’s sixth-best seller, with just over 2,600 examples registered last month alone. In fact, so far in 2025 Jaecoo has outsold the likes of Citroen and Lexus, while compatriot BYD has registered more new vehicles than Dacia, Cupra or MINI.

There will be a lot of cars registered but SORN on an airfield somewhere and not sold. That's the difference between the SMMT figures and the registered and taxed figures.

Have a look on autotrader and there are stack of delivery miles vehicles available. Last time I looked there were about 79 Elroq vrs as an example and I'm sure there will be similar of other makes models and powertrains

Hum, I'm seeing a lot more fossil fuel powered vehicles at less than 100 miles......

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?channel=cars&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&make=&maximum-mileage=100&postcode=al2%201bx&sort=relevance&year-to=2025

(max 100 miles, year 2025, exclude written off)

What's going on? Is there some sort of conspiracy where petrol sales are fake?

May be it need to be packaged up as a youtube video for conformational bias.

/s

For heat pumps, monoblock air-to-water heat pump does not require F-gas certified engineer. Air-conditioning units, where pipes run refrigerant gas, does require F-gas certified person.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/qualifications-required-to-work-on-equipment-containing-f-gas

Edited 9 November, 20259 Nov by wyx087

7 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Hum, I'm seeing a lot more fossil fuel powered vehicles at less than 100 miles......

Maybe the companies are manipulating the figures so they can sell what people want?

36 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Maybe the companies are manipulating the figures so they can sell what people want?

Absolutely.

Then there's 2 possibilities:

1. EV aren't being pre-reg'd en-mass and left in a field/bunker. The numbers reflect the true ratio of pre-reg cars as per consumer demand.

2. EV are being pre-reg'd en-mass and left in a field/bunker. It's all funded by the illuminati.

3: more cars are being built than demand so they are manipulating the registrations to meet the targets so they can sell what people want to buy.

Edited 9 November, 20259 Nov by Stonekeeper

4 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

3: more cars are being built than demand so they are manipulating the registrations to meet the targets so they can sell what people want to buy.

More cars of certain powertrain type are being built than demand?

Are you saying the Autotrader numbers reflect this over supply?

More cars of all power trains are being built than demand

They are effectively building used cars that wont be classed as new sales

Edited 9 November, 20259 Nov by Stonekeeper

42 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Hum, I'm seeing a lot more fossil fuel powered vehicles at less than 100 miles......

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?channel=cars&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&make=&maximum-mileage=100&postcode=al2%201bx&sort=relevance&year-to=2025

(max 100 miles, year 2025, exclude written off)

What's going on? Is there some sort of conspiracy where petrol sales are fake?

May be it need to be packaged up as a youtube video for conformational bias.

/s

For heat pumps, monoblock air-to-water heat pump does not require F-gas certified engineer. Air-conditioning units, where pipes run refrigerant gas, does require F-gas certified person.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/qualifications-required-to-work-on-equipment-containing-f-gas

Well your data set was wide open from any year to 2025 and any value, so to be even more realistic, I altered it to be 2022 to 2025, with a max price of £35,000. Why, to rule out as many of the weird oddball results that your search was producing, like exotic sports cars in the £100,00 plus bracket, special track cars like there was a Ford Escort Drag car (1990), Chevrolet C20 pickup (2016), Fiat 500 (2013) BMW 3 series (1990), VW Golf (1975), Mini Paceman (2014) plus many others that should not have been included in the search, but Autotrader is rubbish for that.

But, that taken to a side, further research revels that the lion share of these cars have all been pre-registered in the last 3 months of each year, which does kind of suggest that they have been pre-registered in an attempt to gain annual sales bonuses?

This is the table with the target years set to 2022 to 2025.

Edited 9 November, 20259 Nov by Graham Butcher

13 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

More cars of all power trains are being built than demand

They are effectively building used cars that wont be classed as new sales

But particularly in certain manufacturers. We know many Stellantis and VW factories are having shutdown periods.

Judging by Renault sales and how difficult it has been to get some models and versions and their sales figures it is not so much for this particular marque.

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

More cars of all power trains are being built than demand

They are effectively building used cars that wont be classed as new sales

Well not strictly true, when they were first pre-registered, they were classed as sales, but are now classed as second hand.

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Hum, I'm seeing a lot more fossil fuel powered vehicles at less than 100 miles......

Hmm, well if the fossil fuel powered cars were all pre-registered and taken to these airfields, and then SORN, that would only leave just the electrics in various formats, I mean yes, these SORN fossil fuelled cars may be listed as used, but they are not new cars that project the image people want to project. I remember when some people would collect their new cars at midnight, being anxious to show off their status symbol brand new car with its latest reg proudly on display for all to see.

Autotrader is not a reliable source of data on cars available and people in the automotive trader know that.

The same car gets quoted as being at a dealer so they hope they get the sale and acquire it from the dealer that actual has it. The number of enquiries and then orders that end up that the car was not theirs but one they hoped they could get hold of. I think probably the reverse also happens. Over stock might gets described as las one or few left when there are lots of them. Both cases are common occurrences.

VIN records are probably the only reliable source of quantification and that would be DVLA database with access for the police and officers like myself when a customs officer and we had access to the places below as well. Massive sites like Bristol docks with up to 90k cars ready to be called off, Southampton is another big site with up to 60k cars, not actually in the UK system but on UK land ready to be called off.

When I was one of the Officers for Bristol docks there was up to 35k cars I recall, it is nearly 3 times that size now. Not in UK free circulation but physically in the UK. Some cars, I seem to remember, could have been stored for up to 2 years on some huge UK inland sites such as old airfields. Americans, oddly, are much more aware of the Model year they are getting which UK Brits seem not to be so switched on to.

Bristol Live

Aerial images show thousands of electric cars arriving in...

In a significant development last week, the Port of Bristol welcomed its largest ever single shipment of cars, predominantly consisting of Chinese-manufactured MG EVs.

1 minute ago, lol-lol said:

Autotrader is not a reliable source of data on cars available and people in the automotive trader know that.

The same car gets quoted as being at a dealer so they hope they get the sale and acquire it from the dealer that actual has it. The number of enquiries and then orders that end up that the car was not theirs but one they hoped they could get hold of. I think probably the reverse also happens. Over stock might gets described as las one or few left when there are lots of them. Both cases are common occurrences.

BUT... the same approach will apply equally to any type of vehicle, be that ICE or EV. SO the margin of error is largely uniform across vehicle types.

You seem to be implying that the trade ONLY applies that approach to EVs so the EV figure is wrong and the ICE figure is correct?

The simple fact is that manufacturers get punished if they miss EV targets etc., hence there is more incentive for them to over-egg EV sales figures to artificially inflate EV 'sales' by pre-registering and SORNing...

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well your data set was wide open from any year to 2025 and any value, so to be even more realistic, I altered it to be 2022 to 2025, with a max price of £35,000.

Ah okay, sorry, my rookie mistake with AT filters.

For 2025 only, less than 100 miles, no written off, no other filters:

Over 6000 with the fossil engine, vs 1500 EV. EV accounts for 18.7%.

Expand to between 2021 and 2025 to account for possibly older airfield stocks, less than 100 miles, no written off, no other filters:

6800 with fossil engine, 1600 EV. EV account for 18.6%.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?channel=cars&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&make=&maximum-mileage=100&postcode=al2%201bx&refresh=true&sort=relevance&year-from=2021&year-to=2025

Seems like EV demands are going pretty well, considering 28% ZEV mandate for 2025. But we are only seeing 19% pre-reg on the open market. Though hybrids do earn some credit towards it.

When it comes down to it, Autotrader is a reliable source of the car listed for sale on their site, but the car that is actually photographed is often not the only one of that model or colour that the dealer has for sale, ever wondered why the cars pictured so often do not show the actual registration plate, but often shows a plate with the dealers name on it? They do not need to do that as the advert clearly states who the car is being sold by along with all their contact details, its done that way so that the dealer does not have to do fresh photos for every car they have for sale.

So in that sense the cars actually listed for sale from a dealer might be many more than they advertise, so in that sense, I agree that Autotrader is not a good reliable source as to precisely how many of these pre-registered cars are still awaiting new owners, they are just like an iceberg, with just the tip on view. I have been told this as well from some dealers, it cuts down the amount of work they have to do and saves them money as listing a new one each time costs more in setup costs. You will also often see the same averts and cars appearing across many car sales platforms.

You also seem to be labouring under the impression that it is Autotrader that is selling the car and that they put more adverts up for a car than they physically have in stock or access to. Well, I'll use that phrase, I think you will find, which many YouTubers use when talking about EV owners, that is certainly not the case, they carry the adverts for the actual sellers, be they trade or private, and they make their money through monthly fees.

Edited 10 November, 202510 Nov by Graham Butcher

32 minutes ago, skomaz said:

BUT... the same approach will apply equally to any type of vehicle, be that ICE or EV. SO the margin of error is largely uniform across vehicle types.

You seem to be implying that the trade ONLY applies that approach to EVs so the EV figure is wrong and the ICE figure is correct?

The simple fact is that manufacturers get punished if they miss EV targets etc., hence there is more incentive for them to over-egg EV sales figures to artificially inflate EV 'sales' by pre-registering and SORNing...

No did not mean to infer that EVs number are any more reliable or unreliable than pure ICE, or hybrid etc, just that Autotrader is numbers are not a bible to cars availability or stock levels. Car dealers are not exactly known for their candour car sales, like other sales areas are known for dirty tricks. That said my local Renault dealer seems one of the best I have found and if the product is also good and good value one cannot ask for much more.

My company continues to push the boundaries of what EVs are thought they can do, in comparison to diesel, and our roll our continues at a pace., we did the test with Windrose Tech for our cargo, driver etc and are due to get bunch of their trucks (Algeciras is down by Gibraltar and where we pick up containers etc from North Africa to come up thru Europe). 1400 hp ! Capable of actually hauling two trailers and up to 64 tonnes !

---

Chinese truck maker Windrose Technology has successfully completed a long-haul test in Spain, covering 1,383 kilometres between Algeciras and Madrid with its fully electric R700 heavy-duty truck...........

Windrose’s first EU-homologated trucks are expected to arrive in December 2025, with European deliveries and UK operations starting in the first quarter of 2026. The Chinese manufacturer has incorporated a Belgian subsidiary and is currently building factories in Belgium and France to support regional production and service. The Spanish trial saw the vehicle complete the round trip in 19 hours using only two rapid charges. Fully loaded at 31 tonnes, it achieved an average energy consumption of 1.26 kWh/km and a range of around 670 kilometres per charge, according to data.... Windrose Technology chief executive Wen Han told Freight Carbon Zero that the Windrose R700 is the company’s sole heavy-duty model, which is already deployed in 20 countries across five continents. The vehicle is equipped with a 700+ kWh battery pack and delivers 1,400 horsepower peak output. It supports both LFP and NMC battery chemistries, though Windrose recommends LFP “for its double lifespan, lower cost and higher safety”...... truck charged twice en route using 300 kW+ chargers supplied by Zunder (in partnership with Kia) and Ionity, located near El Pueblo and Pinto in central Spain. The R700 supports dual-gun charging up to 870 kW, enabling a 20–80% charge in roughly 35 minutes. According to Han, each charging during the test took under an hour, and according to the company’s data, the truck completed the route faster than a comparable diesel vehicle.

---

5 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Car dealers are not exactly known for their candour car sales, like other sales areas are known for dirty tricks. That said my local Renault dealer seems one of the best I have found and if the product is also good and good value one cannot ask for much more.

One of my sons recently did a lease on an Audi A5 from the local dealers, presales they couldn't do enough for him, promised him this and that etc, now that the deal is done they are not appearing to be as good he first thought. Even down to repairing the faintest of dents in a door from an incident in a car park, they wanted £6,500 to repair it, he also got an independent well established body shop quote of £350 for the same.

Edited 10 November, 202510 Nov by Graham Butcher

49 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Ah okay, sorry, my rookie mistake with AT filters.

For 2025 only, less than 100 miles, no written off, no other filters:

Over 6000 with the fossil engine, vs 1500 EV. EV accounts for 18.7%.

Expand to between 2021 and 2025 to account for possibly older airfield stocks, less than 100 miles, no written off, no other filters:

6800 with fossil engine, 1600 EV. EV account for 18.6%.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?channel=cars&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&make=&maximum-mileage=100&postcode=al2%201bx&refresh=true&sort=relevance&year-from=2021&year-to=2025

Seems like EV demands are going pretty well, considering 28% ZEV mandate for 2025. But we are only seeing 19% pre-reg on the open market. Though hybrids do earn some credit towards it.

No, sorry but you are still missing the real point, EV's are in fact BEVs, PHEV, and Hybrids as these cars are all covered currently by the governments Net-Zero approach, even though Hybrids and PHEVs have mainly petrol engines and so few PHEVs are ever actually plugged in and charged, they are still being used a BIK tax dodges. Because they are still allowed within the schemes, the fact that so many are listed with delivery miles on as 2nd hand should be ringing alarm bells in your head, they are not cause for celebration.