F1 / Formula E etc etc is just like GoKarting in bigger and faster cars & even what were top drivers from the past 5 years know they are Sh-!te. Extreme E also. And really it has nothing to do with Road going BEV,s . City cars, family cars, taxi / airport transport sized cars SUV,s LGV,s or HGV,s/ Busses. What there is now and coming out are the stupid fast BEV Hot hatches following and maybe selling better than Abarth, JCW,s & Alpines in the form of the Peugeot e205 GTI, Corsa GSE, SEAT Raval VZ etc. UK National Speed Limit 60 mph.....

Edited 14 May14 May by Evolution13

I've never understood why the EV world has gone all out for all this crazy HP stuff, blistering acceleration figures, and so on. I mean, what is the point of all that HP and being able to sprint away from traffic lights, etc., ahead of the combustion cars if, once they get on the trunk and motorway roads, they all slow down to cruise at about 50 to 55 mph in order to maximise the range only to have all those combustion cars that were thrashed at the lights, etc., go roaring past and leave them for dead? Most EV's I come across on these types of roads must be doing that speed because it gets the best performance out of the battery, as there is virtually zero regen with that type of driving.

It is well known that EV cars excel in city driving with all of that stop-start type of driving, bags of regen to be had, and so on. But on fast roads that is not the case.

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

I've never understood why the EV world has gone all out for all this crazy HP stuff, blistering acceleration figures, and so on. I mean, what is the point of all that HP and being able to sprint away from traffic lights, etc., ahead of the combustion cars if, once they get on the trunk and motorway roads, they all slow down to cruise at about 50 to 55 mph in order to maximise the range only to have all those combustion cars that were thrashed at the lights, etc., go roaring past and leave them for dead? Most EV's I come across on these types of roads must be doing that speed because it gets the best performance out of the battery, as there is virtually zero regen with that type of driving.

It is well known that EV cars excel in city driving with all of that stop-start type of driving, bags of regen to be had, and so on. But on fast roads that is not the case.

I think it is Torque not Power. Nm at very low revs rather than Horsepower and mid or upper rev range.

Depends on the EVs, for cruising speeds as most EVs are SUVs and therefore the Cd and frontal surface area is against them, mainly due to battery pack jacking the car up. Notable exceptions are TESLA model 3 and Polestar but there are a raft of Chinese low saloons and sports arriving in Europe. I am happy to drive at 60 mph myself and not bother with NSL, NSL +10% +2%, just not in that much of a rush these days. I cannot imagine what nearly 5,000 Nm is like in the Renault 5E. Tyre shredding I would have thought.

Truth of the matter we do not all slow down and when other nut jobs think they should be Road Captain there are some like to show them what instant accelsraion really is.

As to regen and in city or out and about. Truth of the matter getting a move on and coasting can give plenty regen. And driving quick and ajusting regen for braking. Just like using a dsg and S to slow down. Being told about how to drive an ev by those that get taught by thd inteternet and not actually driving is just how it seems to be with EV,s and the real world.

Edited 14 May14 May by Evolution13

12 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I think it is Torque not Power. Nm at very low revs rather than Horsepower and mid or upper rev range.

Depends on the EVs, for cruising speeds as most EVs are SUVs and therefore the Cd and frontal surface area is against them, mainly due to battery pack jacking the car up. Notable exceptions are TESLA model 3 and Polestar but there are a raft of Chinese low saloons and sports arriving in Europe. I am happy to drive at 60 mph myself and not bother with NSL, NSL +10% +2%, just not in that much of a rush these days. I cannot imagine what nearly 5,000 Nm is like in the Renault 5E. Tyre shredding I would have thought.

I accept that you, like me, are happy to drive about 60mph, but that's not everybody. Many people have places to be and timetables to keep up with, i.e., those that have not retired yet.

The HP I was talking about is for most EVs that are equivalent sizes to my car, for instance, and well, even your R5 has the same HP as mine, but it is actually smaller physically.

I think you have 150ish HP; I have 150 HP in a stonking great 4x4 with massive ground clearance and far greater frontal area to push through the air as well. It may even be heavier.

Top speed for me is around 122mph with a 110kW engine; yours with a 110kW motor (E-tech) is 93mph. So I can go faster on motorways (ignoring NSL, of course).

Now I know for a fact that on an average day, driving at, say, 60mph on motorways, I can do at least 490 miles and up to around 600 miles on a single tank. Yours, what, 383 miles to a charge?

A Tesla Model Y, for instance, has an HP rating of 335 at the front and the same at the rear, and yet it has a top speed of 125 mph and a range of 311 to 386 (under ideal conditions) [those are Tesla's words, not mine], but that seems to be about the same size as mine, but the HP is higher, but the range is way less.

5 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

As to regen and in city or out and about. Truth of the matter gettinh a move on and coasting can give plenty regen. And driving quick anx adjusting regen for braking. Just like using a dsg and S to slow down. Being told about how to drive an ev by those that get taught by thd inteternet and not actually driving is just how it seems to be with EV,s and the real world.

Nobody is trying to tell anyone how to drive, regardless of the type of car that they are driving; it is just an observation of what I see and what others have said about why they drive at those kinds of speeds. Some even sit in the slipstream of HGVs to help increase their range on long trips.

My MG ev with 150 bhp real world is more liked to a Superb 280 but the 280 is just not as quick. A MG x-power is just on a differdng level speed wise to the VW grouo ice hot hatches or ev.s. and is awd. Might not get out of corners on OEM tyres.

1 minute ago, Evolution13 said:

As to regen and in city or out and about. Truth of the matter getting a move on and coasting can give plenty regen. And driving quick and ajusting regen for braking. Just like using a dsg and S to slow down. Being told about how to drive an ev by those that get taught by thd inteternet and not actually driving is just how it seems to be with EV,s and the real world.

We know electric cars, from stored energy to motion and then excess speed being taken off in Regen to go back in the battery, pure ICE cannot do this and hybrid can do to as degree. I gather there is about a 10% cost of putting vehicle kinetic energy back in to the traction battery and of course the 10% cost of redeploying that energy back in to the EVs forward motion so an over al 20% loss but this is small compared to the mere 35% or so efficiencies of ICE vehicles.

Maintaining a nice steady cruising speed, not speeding along too deep in to the 60 mph plus where aero costs are high, unless one has a very slippery Model 3, Polestar, Mercedes CLA e which CD of about 0.22, similar to Model 3. think my Scenic 0.29 hence not great at the limit of legal motorway speed ie up to 78 mph. Happy around 60-65 mph !

8 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I accept that you, like me, are happy to drive about 60mph, but that's not everybody. Many people have places to be and timetables to keep up with, i.e., those that have not retired yet. The HP I was talking about is for most EVs that are equivalent sizes to my car, for instance, and well, even your R5 has the same HP as mine, but it is actually smaller physically. I think you have 150ish HP; I have 150 HP in a stonking great 4x4 with massive ground clearance and far greater frontal area to push through the air as well. It may even be heavier. Top speed for me is around 122mph with a 110kW engine; yours with a 110kW motor (E-tech) is 93mph. So I can go faster on motorways (ignoring NSL, of course). Now I know for a fact that on an average day, driving at, say, 60mph on motorways, I can do at least 490 miles and up to around 600 miles on a single tank. Yours, what, 383 miles to a charge? A Tesla Model Y, for instance, has an HP rating of 335 at the front and the same at the rear, and yet it has a top speed of 125 mph and a range of 311 to 386 (under ideal conditions) [those are Tesla's words, not mine], but that seems to be about the same size as mine, but the HP is higher, but the range is way less.

I actually have the 120 hp R5 but the torque is close to the 150 hp car and with the less weight and the standing kilometer time is less than 5% different....

https://zeperfs.com/en/duel12733-13244.htm

Most EVs are single gear so limited to about 100 mph. Those with two gears can do 125 mph or even over 150 mph but that is only really possible in Germany of course.

Edited 14 May14 May by lol-lol

4 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

My MG ev with 150 bhp real world is more liked to a Superb 280 but the 280 is just not as quick. A MG x-power is just on a differdng level speed wise to the VW grouo ice hot hatches or ev.s. and is awd. Might not get out of corners on OEM tyres.

I agree, it is faster to a given speed but it also tops out at around 99 mph whereas a Superb 280 is good for 130 mph.

I take your point about the tyres, though. Some think that the OEM tyres on Dacias are pretty diabolical and even dangerous at times.

@lol-lol every drive is not about drivng to an empty tank or battery. Or a commute. Some dfive for leisure and pleasure and just go places to then come back. Sports cars or classics or whatever might never make economic sense, just good for your soul.

2 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I actually have the 120 hp R5 but the torque is close to the 150 hp car and with the less weight and the standing kilometer time is less than 5% different....

https://zeperfs.com/en/duel12733-13244.htm

Agree with you there, but look at cars coming from the more premium makers, Audi A4 and upwards etc.

@Graham Butcher you need to go look at top out speeds ev,s and if you are prepared to go to yours to catch up an ev that was at 120 when you had not got to 100 mph or even that.

Just now, Evolution13 said:

@Graham Butcher you need to go look at top out speeds ev,s and if you are prepared to go to yours to catch up an ev that was at 120 when you had not got to 100 mph or even that.

Already covered that, and I admit that many EVs will out-accelerate my car and, indeed, most combustion-engined cars. But the topic is not about Top Trumps; it was about why EV makers don't try and match the actual performance of sensible sized combustion-engine cars, not those with massive big engines. in the name of conserving energy and maximising range. How many of us actually ever get anywhere close to top speed in the UK anyway? The NSL is maxed at 70 mph.

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Agree with you there, but look at cars coming from the more premium makers, Audi A4 and upwards etc.

Twice or three times the price. Good on Salary Sacrifice but otherwise far too expensive in my view. New Polo e looks good (Raval Cupra even better, also Skoda SUV EV based on this platform) and they might save VAG from going under. Rumour VAFG to sell one of the factories to BYD. Also Cherry going to use Nissan UK other production line !!!

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Twice or three times the price. Good on Salary Sacrifice but otherwise far too expensive in my view. New Polo e looks good (Raval Cupra even better, also Skoda SUV EV based on this platform) and they might save VAG from going under. Rumour VAFG to sell one of the factories to BYD. Also Cherry going to use Nissan UK other production line !!!

Quite agree with you, but I'm trying to look at it from most people's view point who aspire towards better things in their life. My son drives a Audi A5, his choice, nothing to with salary sacrifice etc, his money, his personal ambition in life.

19 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Quite agree with you, but I'm trying to look at it from most people's view point who aspire towards better things in their life. My son drives a Audi A5, his choice, nothing to with salary sacrifice etc, his money, his personal ambition in life.

I have tended, like many, to regard people who buy Audis as wallies, more money than sense. I had an A4 and an A3 but as company cars provisions. Does not take long to realise that A3, Golf, Leon, Octavia all built on same platform and with the non Octavias you are paying more and getting less. A5 is on the A6 platform and whilst bigger than the A4 not sure what one gets unless one goes for the more exotic engines V6 etc. All I remember about the A5 was not too spacious in the back with lowish roof line course and being over 6ft tall I would not want to do long journeys in the back. Which brings us back to SUV land as most people I know have gone for Q series cars and this has since the big A series cars diminish in popularity. Maybe a future of expensive fuel will see the low ICE saloons come back in to fashion with their superior f uel consumption over SUVs ? Dislike Audi dealers as if I did not dress up in my business suit they reception staff would look down their noses. Give me a Cupra, SEAT or Skoda everytime over a Audi or VW. E-trons and R8/10 etc are the only Audis I would consider as the other Audis are better, Newish Superb, 280 hp, over A5 or A6.

Totally agree with you, I don't think my son would have another Audi. When I was working, all my peers were driving A4s while I opted for the Superb for the same reasons you mentioned. In a previous job I was given Passats to drive while management had A4s, based upon nothing but badge snobbery. My manager preferred my car over his, both for comfort and space but was not allowed to have one.

Found this video to be interesting generally. Do you get the feeling that he loves his mode of transport?

Always a pleasure to see someone get really passionate about something, and I think he does, and that makes it all the more interesting.

https://youtu.be/WXla-XE3b4U

Wonderfull as long as no malfunctions and recovery not required by a heavy duty ICE or BEV vehicle and there will be qualified mechanics. Everything is bigger in Ametica.

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Totally agree with you, I don't think my son would have another Audi. When I was working, all my peers were driving A4s while I opted for the Superb for the same reasons you mentioned. In a previous job I was given Passats to drive while management had A4s, based upon nothing but badge snobbery. My manager preferred my car over his, both for comfort and space but was not allowed to have one.

I was not allowed to have a Skoda and was told it was not in keeping the the company image which was a smallish software company but was allowed to have a SEAT Altea XL, go figure. OK to have a badged Volvo, S40, that was really a Ford Focus made in Belgium and had a poor PSA 1.6 diesel engine. Got my Octavia eventually when we abandoned company car policy due tax changes. Some of the old jokes below. I have a Felecia first back in mid 90s before VW took total ownership !

---

We warn you, they're not funny.

1. Why do Skodas have heated rear windscreens?

New punch-line: To effectively clear condensation and ice from the glass in order to improve visibility for the driver.

Old punch-line: To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it.

2. How do you double the price of a Skoda?

New punch-line: Buy every item on the options list

Old punch-line: Fill up the tank with petrol

3. Have you got a wing mirror for my Skoda?

New punch-line: Yes, it'll cost you £45.99

Old punch-line: Okay, seems like a fair swap

4. What do you call a Skoda driver who says he's had a speeding ticket?

New punch-line: A teller of plausible tales

Old punch-line: A liar

5. What do you call a Skoda with a sun roof?

New punch-line: Hard to say, all new Skodas are now available with a sun roof option

Old punch-line: A skip

6. I’ve just bought the new 16 valve Skoda...

New punch-line: It's called a 16-valve Octavia

Old punch-line: 4 in the engine, 12 in the radio! (older readers may better understand this)

7. How do you overtake a Skoda?

New punch-line: wait for a safe place to overtake and accelerate

Old punch-line: Run

8. What colour shall I get my Skoda in?

New punch-line: You can choose from a range of appealing contemporary colours, including metallic jungle green, corrida red and candy white

Old punch-line: It doesn't matter, it'll go brown with rust after a week

9. How do you make a policeman laugh?

New punch-line: spend some time getting to know him in order to understand his sense of humour, then tell him some appropriate anecdotes or jokes.

Old punch-line: Tell him your Skoda just got nicked

10. I bought the top-spec Skoda...

New punch-line: ...this one came with Apple CarPlay, parking assistance and side rear impact airbags.

Old punch-line: ...this one came with an engine.

7 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Gen 4 Formula e cars to be quicker than F1 at some tracks ?

To be seen later this year.

Spec:-

Permanent 4 wheel drive, 600 kw ie 815 hp in Attack and Qualy mode, with 700 Kw regen, record-shattering 1.8-second 0-60 mph launch.

It's all just a bit soul less though isn't it...

@lol-lol I remember all of those jokes and it was the same at my last company, when I joined the national manager told me no it gave the wrong impression to customers. The MD said I could though👍

I wouldn't necessary agree that all people that buy Audis are wallies - I bought a brand new Octavia in November 2017 and traded it in for a 2016 Audi A4 saloon in 2019. Why? I got fed up with the poor build quality and the distinct impression it had been built down to a price. The Audi cost £16K from an Audi dealer, had done just over 8K miles and has now covered 104K miles and still drives the same as when I bought it. I doubt the Octavia would have been the same.