the truth about electric cars

[Graham Butcher]

9 minutes ago, xman said:

 

I not only "claim to be able to" drive 6+ hours without a toilet/food/coffee break, I actually do a few times every year. So there.....

 

 

I used to do this very often when I was younger, but as you get older, you also tend to find that you need comfort breaks more often. I used to rib my poor old mum about the number of breaks I'd have to if I took her out with me for the day to give her something else to look at other than 4 walls, now I can see her problem, however, I still don't feel the need for comfort breaks long enough to do a recharge of a battery, all I need to do is a literal "Splash and dash" 😂 

[Graham Butcher]

4 minutes ago, Rooted said:

^^^ Not for you then.    Long story short. 

Not for the moment, but you never know what is around the corner, like I said before, never say no, and keep an open mind, if the right car came along at the right price blah blah....

[lol-lol]

Well the UK price of the Dacia Spring, base model I presume, will be.........

https://www.carwow.co.uk/dacia/news/7042/new-dacia-spring-price-specs#gref

 

I really liked my Dacia Logan of a few years ago and this is going to be a cracker I reckon as it has been in mainland Europe selling 140,000 plus and this model is much better than that one.

NEW DACIA SPRING COSTS FROM £14,995

 

 

 

 

 

[Stonekeeper]

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

 

I'm saying there's people who is in a position to home charge and buy new-ish vehicles, but are buying/leasing fossil fuel by default or out of spite for ZEV mandate. That is plain ignorance or a 5 year old adult.

 

For those people, ZEV should be the default now. Unless there's good reasons, BEV will drive better, save money and pollute less.

 

Check out all the reasons why people choose BEV: https://www.speakev.com/threads/what-convinced-you-that-ev-are-the-future.183692/

 

There are also people who have done the Math and realise the extra initial outlay for an electric vehicle that will fit their needs will not be recouped by the time they change the vehicle.

 

Yet.

 

But look forward to the day it is possible.

[lol-lol]

22 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

There are also people who have done the Math and realise the extra initial outlay for an electric vehicle that will fit their needs will not be recouped by the time they change the vehicle.

 

Yet.

 

But look forward to the day it is possible.

 

I pay less than £300 a month for the Renault Zoe and similar for the Renault Arkana.  Pretty cheap PCP deals but that was in the time when finance was cheap ie before the UK economy, inflation etc, when for a Burton, 1.9% and 3.9% APR I recall, plus there was the UK Government subsidies on the Zoe EV at the time that made it nice and cheap.

 

Whilst inflation has gone up to high level, relative to the last 15 years, price of EVs has plummeted as biulding them is getting cheaper due to the huge drop in lithium price both for pue lithium batteries and the LFP ones and also that UK is in recession and car companies just need to shift some cars, EVs and ICE....

 

 

 

 

  

[Graham Butcher]

Err, no the Dacia Spring will not be appearing on my short list for way too many reasons to list.

Edited 12 March by Graham Butcher

[skomaz]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Dual-string inverter. By my calculation I've already made back my investment, about 2 years earlier than projection. Due to sharp rise in energy prices and crypto mining using the free excess electricity. Of course, having ability to store also vastly improve saving.

 

One is a civil engineer, the other is a consultant also in engineering. The finances works for most installs, they've had me look over the numbers. Especially when they are paying 15p/kWh for exports and possible to not import 25p/kWh. Installation is also very cheap nowadays, in comparison to my install.

 

Only need to seek out advice and evaluate the market. Not many people actually do this because the old view that solar panels are expensive stuck.

 

You have stated a logical paradox:

- "it comes across that fashion" that I'm asking everyone to buy EV today.

- "everybody should....... if they are in a position".

So am I really asking everybody to buy EV, or everyone who is in certain position to buy?

 

In what way was I insulting people? As you said, everyone has their reasons, and I agreed, I said "unless there's good reasons".

 

Just like solar panels, thinking they are expensive to install because they were 15 years ago is ignorant. Thinking EV are not suitable without doing research is ignorant. That is a fact, not insult.

Playing games and sole reason is being "government said" is a 5 year old adult. It is not a valid reason and it is not an insult, it is a description.

 

Look up the meaning of ignorant and you will see it is commonly used as a rude and insulting term.

 

You would be better using 'ill informed' as it is not rude and insulting.

Edited 12 March by skomaz

[skomaz]

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I think some people here claiming able to drive 4+ hours might need one of those.  😛 

 

It's no denying choices are non existence for under £10k because of lagging manufacturers, too slow to put EV into mass production.

 

Under £10k get you a great local EV. (Leaf, Zoe 22/40) Can be your main vehicle most of the time. Still need to keep the old ICE for longer trips. But still saves a lot of fuel and reduce local air pollution.

£10k to £20k gives a lot of options for an acceptable EV to replace a single ICE car.  (Zoe 50, Ioniq 38, Kona, eNiro, ID3)

£20k or more buys a full featured ICE replacement without any compromise. (Model 3)

 

Key, as always, is home charging.

 

Cheaper EV is coming. This 100 miles range city car only costs £15k brand new: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-spring-uks-cheapest-electric-car

 

Although it isn't impossible without home charging in a city, as demonstrated by this video:  (S London, 5 miles commute, 1 trip to Manchester and a few hiking trips, all in a 100 miles EV)

 

 

Indeed....   When I replace the Swift, which incidentally has a near 300 mile range despite its tiny fuel tank, I'll probably go electric but will only want to pay about £11k which is what I paid for the Swift which is a top of the range model and had only done 800miles.  Even the Kodiaq with 16k miles was only £18k and the most I've ever paid for a vehicle in nearly 40 years of motoring.

Edited 12 March by skomaz

[skomaz]

4 hours ago, xman said:

 

I not only "claim to be able to" drive 6+ hours without a toilet/food/coffee break, I actually do a few times every year. So there.....

 

 

I regularly do 3.5.  not quite the same but still more than seems to be the EV standard?

[J.R.]

4 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Look up the meaning of ignorant and you will see it is commonly used as a rude and insulting term.

 

Used as or perceived as rude by the reciever?

 

I have never taken it as an insult when its used correctly to describe my lack of knowledge of something, I use it frequently to describe myself but that is also a French thing, I have no qualms using it with French people but I dont tend to in English, not because I think it is an insult but because like many things these days some seek tp become victimised, my sister being off the scale turning even a compliment against herself.

[J.R.]

Those of you that do not have the same range as your vehicles (I did not use autonomy this time! 👍) do you have to get up during the night as well? If so how many times?

 

My maximum budget for a new (to me) vehicle has always been £3K and for that plus a few quid in repairs I have always managed to find a decent sought after late model vehicle, since Covid that no longer seems to be the case but I intend keeping this one forever so its neither here nor there unless someone crashes into me.

[skomaz]

13 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Used as or perceived as rude by the reciever?

 

 

Both according to dictionary definition.

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Err, no the Dacia Spring will not be appearing on my short list for way too many reasons to list.

 

I think one might siut one of my daughters as she only drive about a mile to work and no ICE car would be good to do that sort of journey with bad effects on the engine etc but it would still be capable of South Wales to Worcester for range.

 

Superb does not suit many as seen by Octavia outselling it several fold.  My mark 1 superb was probably the worst Skoda of the dozen I had, handling and parking to name two areas of mediocrity.  Would like the 280 hp 4x4 version maybe just for a week.  Like the Passat and Chrysler 300 good for the freakishly tall though.

 

[wyx087]

37 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Look up the meaning of ignorant and you will see it is commonly used as a rude and insulting term.

 

You would be better using 'ill informed' as it is not rude and insulting.

Good point, I shall change to say ill informed in the future. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

It is ill informed if information isn't widely available.

It would be ignorant if actively choose not to do such research in earnest and believe the headlines.

 

36 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Indeed....   When I replace the Swift, which incidentally has a near 300 mile range despite its tiny fuel tank, I'll probably go electric but will only want to pay about £11k which is what I paid for the Swift which is a top of the range model and had only done 800miles.  Even the Kodiaq with 16k miles was only £18k and the most I've ever paid for a vehicle in nearly 40 years of motoring.

If you have driveway and have 2 cars, replacing 1 to be electric commuter car is very straight forward.

 

At £11k, best option would be a Ioniq 38.

A £11k good Ioniq 38 example brought through auction bidding service, everything is well within manufacturer's warranty: https://youtu.be/TqCplga9FTU?si=pBexkl3bkJrd2LOZ

 

33 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Those of you that do not have the same range as your vehicles (I did not use autonomy this time! 👍) do you have to get up during the night as well? If so how many times?

No I don't get up at night.

I do have habit of drink a lot of water when sitting and working, so I go to toilet about once every hour. Usually when my watch buzzes to remind me to stand up.

It's more about needing to stretch legs and do something else other than sitting. It's much healthier this way.

 

[Graham Butcher]

32 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

At £11k, best option would be a Ioniq 38.

A £11k good Ioniq 38 example brought through auction bidding service, everything is well within manufacturer's warranty: https://youtu.be/TqCplga9FTU?si=pBexkl3bkJrd2LOZ

 

Question, do EV's have less tyre tread on their tyres then? I ask because in the video link you attached, he talks about the rear tyres being practically brand new with tread depths of 4.7 and 4.9mm? New tyres on my Superb come with 8mm of tread and given that the legal minimum of tread is 1.6mm and it is recommended to change them at 3mm. So that suggests that the tyres on the Ioniq 38 are actually over halfway through their useful life.

 

 

[J.R.]

55 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

No I don't get up at night.

I do have habit of drink a lot of water when sitting and working, so I go to toilet about once every hour. Usually when my watch buzzes to remind me to stand up.

It's more about needing to stretch legs and do something else other than sitting. It's much healthier this way.

 

 

I am on the move most of the day, I do between 12 and 15K steps every day without ever leaving my small plot, simply working on the ground floor alone, my drinking habits are bad, I drink water and lemon juice and mainly last thing before going to bed, I have just done so and would usually have a second glass, as a consequence I may get up once during the night but only because I am awake, when its below 3° inside I stay in bed!

 

I dread to think how many nocturnal visits I would make if I was still a beer and wine drinker.

Edited 12 March by J.R.

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Question, do EV's have less tyre tread on their tyres then? I ask because in the video link you attached, he talks about the rear tyres being practically brand new with tread depths of 4.7 and 4.9mm? New tyres on my Superb come with 8mm of tread and given that the legal minimum of tread is 1.6mm and it is recommended to change them at 3mm. So that suggests that the tyres on the Ioniq 38 are actually over halfway through their useful life.

Economy centric tyres sometimes come with lower thread depth.

 

You are free to fit 8mm tyres if you wish. But remember it's not the thread depth that determines life of the tyre. The compound wear rate plays a bigger role.

 

 

This video starting at this point explains why some tyre may have lower starting depth, it's for rolling resistance. But they may have slower wear rate.

 

Edited 12 March by wyx087

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Economy centric tyres sometimes come with lower thread depth.

 

You are free to fit 8mm tyres if you wish. But remember it's not the thread depth that determines life of the tyre. The compound wear rate plays a bigger role.

 

 

This video starting at this point explains why some tyre may have lower starting depth, it's for rolling resistance. But they may have slower wear rate.

 

Thanks for the video, it helped, but according to my research the more tread the better wet performance and my Avon ZV7 tyres are rated A for wet performance and lets face it, we certainly have more than our fair share of rain. They are also low rolling resistance tyres as well but they come with 8mm of tread and I change my tyres at 2mm as a minimum and I have been averaging around 25,000 plus to a set of tyres.

[EnterName]

16 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

I think you'll find it IS the reason for a large swathe of the population, particularly in relation to initial outlay, even second hand (looking at the prices for something comparable in terms of mileage and size to the vehicles we have).

I just deleted a long reply to Wyx about this issue, because I just lost the will to try and explain it.

When I sold my Mondeo, I offered it to a couple I know who desperately needed a car. I was asking £500, which four years ago was crazy-cheap for a 2006 Mondeo Ghia TDCI, well-maintained on 4 newish tyres, with 120K miles.

They asked if they could pay me on instalments. Frankly, I'd have just given them the car if I'd been closer friends with them, but another friend wanted the car and could rustle-up £500 (like most of us on here, I suspect), without a second's thought, so I let him buy it and he's still very happily motoring around in it.

EVs are an expensive novelty for large numbers of people in the UK.

[EnterName]

12 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Whilst inflation has gone up to high level, relative to the last 15 years, price of EVs has plummeted as biulding them is getting cheaper due to the huge drop in lithium price both for pue lithium batteries and the LFP ones and also that UK is in recession and car companies just need to shift some cars, EVs and ICE....

Inflation is high, demand is high, but the price of lithium has dropped sharply.

Does anyone know why?

Normally inflation plus high demand leads to price rises.

[Ootohere]

BEV,s are in the hands of many business users, and people like Nurses, Carers, Home Helps, Social Workers, Emergency Workers, taxis, couriers, trades people, fast food deliveries, chemists, so  Fleets, Lease Companies and owned by Motability Finance.

Just cars used by employees or those that opted for a BEV or got landed with them.

Then those that want to own or lease them. 

They are what they are, if you do not want them or can not afford cheap ones then just say 'No'. 

 

.............

I doubt any member here is a Trader in Minerals / Metals or speculate in world markets so you just need to see what reason might show on Social Media, Media or business news.

There might be various reasons given.   Depends who tells you. 

Edited 13 March by Rooted

[EnterName]

If give people a choice to say 'No', but then punish them with punitive ULEZ charges and increased ICE taxes, then you're going to have to deal with their reaction to your punishment for making the "wrong" choice.

The so-called ULEZ "Bladerunners" are one example of a reaction to people being punished for having the gall to "Just say 'No' ".

Other reactions are available.

[Ootohere]

Opt out.  Walk or cycle or scooter.  But do not go on about price of footwear or choice.  Or push bike or push scooter or electric.   Or wind up watch , battery / solar.   Flat Vs house. Tent Vs caravan or motorhome.  Hotel / resort Vs Cruise.        Everyone has opinions and choices in the UK.  Rich country, lots of pollution..

[wyx087]

47 minutes ago, EnterName said:

I just deleted a long reply to Wyx about this issue, because I just lost the will to try and explain it.

When I sold my Mondeo, I offered it to a couple I know who desperately needed a car. I was asking £500, which four years ago was crazy-cheap for a 2006 Mondeo Ghia TDCI, well-maintained on 4 newish tyres, with 120K miles.

They asked if they could pay me on instalments. Frankly, I'd have just given them the car if I'd been closer friends with them, but another friend wanted the car and could rustle-up £500 (like most of us on here, I suspect), without a second's thought, so I let him buy it and he's still very happily motoring around in it.

EVs are an expensive novelty for large numbers of people in the UK.

Of course right now EV cannot compare to a many-years-old car on price. Do we have any good EV before 2010? This is the fault of car manufacturers waiting for innovators, not wanting to unbalance the established status quo. 

 

Actually, there was a very good EV before 2010, but were taken back and destroyed in fear of disturbing the status quo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#Cancellation

 

But to say they are expensive novelty, when there's more £40k+ brand new ICE vehicles being bought is very "ill informed". Fact is when comparing new vehicles, EV prices are comparable and some instances very competitive. When comparing second hand, an ICE replacement only really came about from 2019 onwards and choices are few. 

 

16 minutes ago, EnterName said:

If give people a choice to say 'No', but then punish them with punitive ULEZ charges and increased ICE taxes, then you're going to have to deal with their reaction to your punishment for making the "wrong" choice.

The so-called ULEZ "Bladerunners" are one example of a reaction to people being punished for having the gall to "Just say 'No' ".

Other reactions are available.

There is lot of choices. Change car, use public transport or reduce travelling into ULEZ just to name a few. Just like leaded petrol, based on more scientific understanding, a change need to happen. When something needs to change, there always has to be incentives and punishment, carrots and sticks. Enough carrots have been given out. 

 

Speaking of carrots, I got my 7 kW podpoint back in 2017 installed for £99, thanks to government grant of £500 and Nissan contribution. I recently sold charge point unit on ebay for £135. Thanks very much everyone for your tax contribution. 😛 

 

Before you say it's expensive novelty, the Nissan Leaf costed similar to similar age Skoda Octavia. Diesel saving for my 60 miles commute covered most of PCP payments. The only problem I can see for wide adoption is the ownership of driveways. 

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, EnterName said:

Inflation is high, demand is high, but the price of lithium has dropped sharply.

Does anyone know why?  Normally inflation plus high demand leads to price rises.

 

Particularly China has geared up for massive production of lithium based batteries for its own EV market and for exported cars ie TESLA, BYD, SAIC etc.  

The automotive rechargeable battery technology has moved on from lithium batteries to lithium iron phosphate and very recently to sodium batteries so less lithium is needed.

China is going through a bit of a economic hiccup and of its hundred or so EV companies some are to the wall and not the Great Wall (Chinese EV joke).

Also the super scaling of battery production, particularly by BYD and CATL, is massively driving down the unit price of kwhs of batteries of each kind.

We are just the lucky recipients whether it is buying a RHD TESLA, BYD, MG etc.

LG Chem, as in my Zoe, and other South Korean firms are doing the same but no one is close to matching the Chinese in this endeavour.