4 hours ago, Rooted said:

 

Huh, this a reason why the main stream media cannot be relied upon for factual information these days, you need to fact-check almost everything they report on. The reporter said Hinckley Point, Bristol when in fact it is actually closer to Bridgewater, 8 miles away as the crow flies compared to 30 miles to Bristol. 

Edited 5 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Huh, this a reason why the main stream media cannot be relied upon for factual information these days, you need to fact-check almost everything they report on. The reporter said Hinckley Point, Bristol when in fact it is actually closer to Bridgewater, 8 miles away as the crow flies compared to 30 miles to Bristol. 

 

UK Press are not very good at technical stuff as well as most other actually delivering news/accurate information rather than bias opinion that they think their reads will lap up.

 

Bridgewater not well know but will be when the half billion pound battery factory is biult.  Just go past Bristol, over the Avon bridge, up the Portishead to Clevedon elevated section and then past Weston with its mud beach, and Burnham the follow the sulphur smell to Bridgewater.

 

Did a visit to Hinkley point when both the Magnox and AGR ie Hinkley A and B were running.   As most power stations so inefficient that warm water fish live in the cooling water outflow in the Bristol Channel.  we need Hinkley C for energy security but I am glad I do not live close to it.

 

On 04/12/2023 at 21:57, Graham Butcher said:

Regardless of the Mac Master being a wally or not, I completely disagree with your theory about EV drivers knowing which motorway services to visit and which one to miss, its rather like saying that every ICE driver knows which service station to visit and those to miss. Are you speaking from being reasonably local to them and therefore may have either experienced them first hand or have been tipped off about them?

 

It is a simple case of understanding the exponential growth of EVs.

Some Motorway service stations still have the pair of 50 kW chargers that the Forest Green owner put at these motorway services but they are upgrading all of them to have 8,12,16 or so charging point ie Gridserve are, with their half a billion Private Equity money.  TESLA are doing their own thing and have some banks of 8, 12, 16 of their TESLA chargers at various services and now with the version 4 charger non-TESLA owners can charge at these stations with contactless credit/debit card. ZAP MAP shows the rapid installation of new chargers where we are going from 50,000 charging points to 100,000 charging points which will take about another 18 months to do.

 

It is not a theory about EV drivers knowing which are the "good" service its known by previous visitation and seeing the installs there or being installed and knowing they will be up and running in a few weeks and by checking with onboard or Smart phone Apps which take about 30s to a minute to consult.  Apps such as Electroverse from Octopus, onboard Google or Zap Map and A Better Route Planner.

 

I drive all over the motorway network as my office are Aberdeen, Cambridge, Cardiff, Glasgow, Liverpool, London-Heathrow, Manchester, Tilbury and I visit family from Brighton down to Soho so I must have seen them all, do about 30k miles a year in a mixture of EV and Hybrid, mild and full. 

 

EV drivers I have met at charge points exchange infor while the 10,15, 20 minute charge is going on and point to online publications which highlight the new electric forecourts, services that have just been upgraded, the standout ones like Rugby which is such a good location going East-West or North-South.  Also the ways to get cheaper charging using Electroverse RFID card which gives discount on many charger networks and just adds the cost to ones monthly billing so one my not see a cost for months. Happy days.

I personally don't rate Zapmap. It used to be very good way of showing charge points back when every one is important and EV are few and far in between. But its introduction of membership has meant its free service hasn't kept pace with all other free apps out there. Zapmap locks filter by minimum number of charge points behind membership paywall.

 

ABetterRoutePlanner, Electroverse and WattsApp all allow filtering by minimum number of charge points for free. It's always the first filter I set.

 

I mainly use Electroverse to find charging hubs these days, prefer compatible with Electroverse RFID card. ABRP for checking long distance charging stops.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

It is a simple case of understanding the exponential growth of EVs.

Some Motorway service stations still have the pair of 50 kW chargers that the Forest Green owner put at these motorway services but they are upgrading all of them to have 8,12,16 or so charging point ie Gridserve are, with their half a billion Private Equity money.  TESLA are doing their own thing and have some banks of 8, 12, 16 of their TESLA chargers at various services and now with the version 4 charger non-TESLA owners can charge at these stations with contactless credit/debit card. ZAP MAP shows the rapid installation of new chargers where we are going from 50,000 charging points to 100,000 charging points which will take about another 18 months to do.

 

It is not a theory about EV drivers knowing which are the "good" service its known by previous visitation and seeing the installs there or being installed and knowing they will be up and running in a few weeks and by checking with onboard or Smart phone Apps which take about 30s to a minute to consult.  Apps such as Electroverse from Octopus, onboard Google or Zap Map and A Better Route Planner.

 

I drive all over the motorway network as my office are Aberdeen, Cambridge, Cardiff, Glasgow, Liverpool, London-Heathrow, Manchester, Tilbury and I visit family from Brighton down to Soho so I must have seen them all, do about 30k miles a year in a mixture of EV and Hybrid, mild and full. 

 

EV drivers I have met at charge points exchange infor while the 10,15, 20 minute charge is going on and point to online publications which highlight the new electric forecourts, services that have just been upgraded, the standout ones like Rugby which is such a good location going East-West or North-South.  Also the ways to get cheaper charging using Electroverse RFID card which gives discount on many charger networks and just adds the cost to ones monthly billing so one my not see a cost for months. Happy days.

Well you have just said it all, not all EV drivers cover the UK in the fashion like you do, so they don't have the benefit of having the pre-visitation to get to know the "good" ones or have all the various APPs you mention, or indeed the time required to check them. Have you ever actually timed the amount of time it takes to check through those apps, it will be a lot longer than what you claim, and also assumes that you have a good connection, with many parts of the UK, that is not guaranteed, and many don't have a mobile. Also, it is not something you can while driving you need to pull over (if you can, can't do if on a motorway) and of course are not supposed to be using a handheld device while in the driving seat when the ignition might still be on. Then you further complicate things with all the various cards/APPs required and the required accounts required to access all the various chargers provided by various operators. What a performance just to effectively get refuelled, none of these are necessary with ICE, you may have a dedicated loyalty card, but that is not a major issue as the price per litre is not going to be anywhere near the differences of electric per KWh.

 

Electric might well be the fuel of the future, and possibly be ultimately greener overall, but until there is regulation in place to make charging as easily accessible to all drivers with fairer prices and as plentiful as liquid fuel, drivers will remain cautious about the purchase of an electric car, and I think that governments are aware of this and hence the enforcements on makers and dealers to limit the supply of new ICE vehicles.

 

We get the point.  Refuelling an ICE is simple in much of the UK much of the time other than maybe during strikes, shortages, adverse weather, road closures etc.

Then you might need to plan ahead.

 

Going places in EV,s you know or have been before in the past or recently and you pretty much know what to check and where.

Checking before a trip can take some time, or be dead quick. 

 

Anyone that has not done it or has not got the Apps or knowledge of them & that go on what others that might not have experience or experience of them are just wasting their time discussing them IMO.

 

There are plenty that have issues or have had and they tell others about it, or not. 

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Have you ever actually timed the amount of time it takes to check through those apps

Go on ABetterRoutePlanner website and try it yourself. It's no different to checking out the route in Google maps. At most need a few seconds to select your car and set minimum charging stalls per location the first time using it. 

 

For loyalty cards, I only have 1: Electroverse RFID, plus contactless payment covers every rapid charging I've ever wanted to do so far. 

 

14 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Electric might well be the fuel of the future, and possibly be ultimately greener overall, but until there is regulation in place to make charging as easily accessible to all drivers with fairer prices and as plentiful as liquid fuel,.......

There IS regulation to make charging easily accessible: 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance/public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance#:~:text=New public charge points of,becomes public to offer contactless.

 

Nothing on fair pricing, and I personally can't see rapid charging become cheaper. I also personally don't support use of EV through rapid charging only, rapid charging puts a strain on the grid, rather than be an asset when plugged in and smart charging. 

5 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Go on ABetterRoutePlanner website and try it yourself. It's no different to checking out the route in Google maps. At most need a few seconds to select your car and set minimum charging stalls per location the first time using it. 

 

For loyalty cards, I only have 1: Electroverse RFID, plus contactless payment covers every rapid charging I've ever wanted to do so far. 

 

There IS regulation to make charging easily accessible: 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance/public-charge-point-regulations-2023-guidance#:~:text=New public charge points of,becomes public to offer contactless.

 

Nothing on fair pricing, and I personally can't see rapid charging become cheaper. I also personally don't support use of EV through rapid charging only, rapid charging puts a strain on the grid, rather than be an asset when plugged in and smart charging. 

You're missing the point here, and I don't use Google maps as its a dog's breakfast to me and I don't use any route finder on my phone, prefer to use a dedicated sat nav designed specifically to do one job and do it well.

 

If you're going on a long trip and need to get a recharge to either complete the trip, or to return home, then what are you advocating to use, an AC 7KW charger and take simply hours to do it? That would never meet with public acceptance and people would be hanging onto their ICE cars as long as they could, is that what you really want them to do?

 

Destination chargers are also not the answer, as I have previously pointed out, many places I go to, it is impossible to have them, and if they wanted to have them, then thousands would be required at certain venues I go to once or twice a year when they hold open days to the public and then return to being a fully operational RAF base again.

 

 

Hmm, this one is a mystery then as many of you are saying that batteries are good for 100,000 plus miles, especially on Tesla's?

 

 

@Graham Butcher 7 kW chargers then maybe 6.6 kWh,  so 21-25  miles added in an hour.

On a 11 kW charger 10.5 kWh in, 35-40 + miles in an hour. 

 

Some were or are fine with a car with 22-43 kW AC charging.   Just a pity some with DC Rapid Charging go on a 22 or 43 kW AC tethered charger getting only 11 kW and depriving those needing AC charging as their Rapid charging.

 

We are where we are.

We are going where we are unless maybe a WWIII or pandemic or other world disasters.

 

VW Group were doing OK with Hybrids but cheating the ICE emissions and now they have PHEV Hybrids with issues / snagging faults and also Connectivity but that comes down to them taking stuff in-house and then going into denial quite a lot. plus the best engineers not working for them because they might get thrown under a bus and take the fall for the liars and cheats at the top. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

If you're going on a long trip and need to get a recharge to either complete the trip, or to return home, then what are you advocating to use, an AC 7KW charger and take simply hours to do it?

No, I've never ever said to use that to complete a trip. Rapid charging is the enabler for driving EV beyond home range. 

 

I'm advocating to use AC destination charging whenever possible. I'm saying to switch away from petrol station mentality for everyday use, as much as possible. 

 

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hmm, this one is a mystery then as many of you are saying that batteries are good for 100,000 plus miles, especially on Tesla's?

 

I'm sure you, as someone with engineering background, know full well: A one-off is in no way conclusive of a whole branch of technology. 

 

There are more than 700 Tesla's in UK alone that has covered more than 100k miles: 

https://www.fleetandleasing.com/leasing-news-1/high-mileage-tesla-close-to-400000-miles-on-the-clock/

 

Would this engine warranty replacement story mean ICE are no good? 

5 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

No, I've never ever said to use that to complete a trip. Rapid charging is the enabler for driving EV beyond home range. 

 

I'm advocating to use AC destination charging whenever possible. I'm saying to switch away from petrol station mentality for everyday use, as much as possible. 

Totally agree with your point on this and I have always done so, but when at services, normally you would be there (unless not able to charge at home) because you were on route to somewhere, so that is where I would expect rapid charging to be the main stay of chargers, especially on routes such as motorways as nobody is going to drive to a motorway service point and charge their car on a slow charger especially when you have supplier imposed time limits for instance. Also destination chargers are not possible at every destination, even at work as many companies are not able to even provide parking spaces for their staff.

 

This why I said you're missing the point. EV's make perfect sense for a lot of people if they can get to where they need to be, and back again comfortably, without needing to charge before getting home again. For many this is not the case.

16 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I'm sure you, as someone with engineering background, know full well: A one-off is in no way conclusive of a whole branch of technology. 

 

There are more than 700 Tesla's in UK alone that has covered more than 100k miles: 

https://www.fleetandleasing.com/leasing-news-1/high-mileage-tesla-close-to-400000-miles-on-the-clock/

 

Would this engine warranty replacement story mean ICE are no good? 

Again, I agree with you but, again I feel that you are missing the point, this is not a one-off, its already on its third battery pack, so that's a one-off event that's occurred 3 times on the same vehicle WTF.

Well under 3,000 Fabia Mk2 vRS in the UK.

2010-2012 only 1,800 and a failure rate of engines of over 20%. Then discontinued and 1,100 with a revised engines and a 10% failure rate.

Same with the Ibiza, Polo & A1 with the Twincharger 1.4 TSI.  Other models with the engines around the world.

 

........

Now this in the article might be a bit of a P1ss take but there was a member on here with a car that was on the 3rd engine, that was 2 replacements.

One reported on having had 3 replacements but the records with Skoda UK were snide.

 

The Water pump replacement includes the Supercharger Clutch. The complete job is only £530, or was.

 

 

Edited 6 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

Whereas its unheard of for an incompetent garage or garages to effect the same repair several times on an ICE vehicle without actually finding the cause isn't it 🤔

 

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

Going places in EV,s you know or have been before in the past or recently and you pretty much know what to check and where.

Checking before a trip can take some time, or be dead quick. 

 

No different to knowing where the speed cameras are or having to find out.

 

Or planning an autoroute journey with breaks for food and fuel away from the expensive services.

 

Both of these are more pronounced in France where Shatnavs are not allowed to give speed camera warnings and the fuel at Autoroute service stations is massively more expensive.

55 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

No, I've never ever said to use that to complete a trip. Rapid charging is the enabler for driving EV beyond home range. 

 

I'm advocating to use AC destination charging whenever possible. I'm saying to switch away from petrol station mentality for everyday use, as much as possible. 

 

I'm sure you, as someone with engineering background, know full well: A one-off is in no way conclusive of a whole branch of technology. 

 

There are more than 700 Tesla's in UK alone that has covered more than 100k miles: 

https://www.fleetandleasing.com/leasing-news-1/high-mileage-tesla-close-to-400000-miles-on-the-clock/

 

Would this engine warranty replacement story mean ICE are no good? 

 

I worked on a rolling road for a while a good while ago and ICE cars do lose quite a lot of their original power, if they even had it there in the first place.

Not unusual to see the back wheel horsepower showing barely half of the published engine horsepower.

Rather naughtily we would sometimes use the doubling feature on the rolling road so the client was not so angered by the fast that his 150 hp, at engine, car was actually showing way less than 100 hp at the back wheels after a few tens of thousands of miles but as long as we showed him that the car was producing 10, 15, 20% more power when we handed it back they were happy. 

 

Electric cars do not degrade in performance or range as much as ICE cars I would say. 

 

Tesla can send an over the air update that can give another 50 or 100 hp as they have quite recently.

Might be part of the reason insurance has gone up as it has made already very quick cars go to another level.

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Totally agree with your point on this and I have always done so, but when at services, normally you would be there (unless not able to charge at home) because you were on route to somewhere, so that is where I would expect rapid charging to be the main stay of chargers, especially on routes such as motorways as nobody is going to drive to a motorway service point and charge their car on a slow charger especially when you have supplier imposed time limits for instance. Also destination chargers are not possible at every destination, even at work as many companies are not able to even provide parking spaces for their staff.

 

This why I said you're missing the point. EV's make perfect sense for a lot of people if they can get to where they need to be, and back again comfortably, without needing to charge before getting home again. For many this is not the case.

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding why you insist that EV's are only suitable for people who wouldn't need to charge before getting home.

 

Public charging is not at all difficult. Especially when search area is 50 miles along the route and most services or charging hubs near major roads have many charger stalls.

Public charging was difficult with a 60 miles range EV, search area of 10 miles with only a few charge points available.

 

22 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Tesla can send an over the air update that can give another 50 or 100 hp as they have quite recently.

Might be part of the reason insurance has gone up as it has made already very quick cars go to another level.

Good point.

I can buy acceleration boost for £1500 (if someone bought a car with my referral code, this is basically free upgrade). DVLA doesn't want to know, I don't think it counts as a modification for insurance because everything is still within factory spec, there also isn't an option to select it in comparison sites. So am I being insured because my car could go 4.2s 0-60, as opposed to 4.8s without?

39 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

I worked on a rolling road for a while a good while ago and ICE cars do lose quite a lot of their original power, if they even had it there in the first place.

Not unusual to see the back wheel horsepower showing barely half of the published engine horsepower.

Rather naughtily we would sometimes use the doubling feature on the rolling road so the client was not so angered by the fast that his 150 hp, at engine, car was actually showing way less than 100 hp at the back wheels after a few tens of thousands of miles but as long as we showed him that the car was producing 10, 15, 20% more power when we handed it back they were happy. 

 

Electric cars do not degrade in performance or range as much as ICE cars I would say. 

 

Tesla can send an over the air update that can give another 50 or 100 hp as they have quite recently.

Might be part of the reason insurance has gone up as it has made already very quick cars go to another level.

 

 

Very true, it seems to happen more to thoroughbred cars like the Italian supercars more than others. I say seem for a good reason, as people who buy them second-hand are perhaps buying them as they fancy a really fast supercar at cheap prices. Whereas it is highly possible that the original owner was not so interested in its performance as it's status symbol perhaps?

 

If that is true then the new owner might notice the lack of performance more?

22 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding why you insist that EV's are only suitable for people who wouldn't need to charge before getting home.

 

Public charging is not at all difficult. Especially when search area is 50 miles along the route and most services or charging hubs near major roads have many charger stalls.

Public charging was difficult with a 60 miles range EV, search area of 10 miles with only a few charge points available.

 

Good point.

I can buy acceleration boost for £1500 (if someone bought a car with my referral code, this is basically free upgrade). DVLA doesn't want to know, I don't think it counts as a modification for insurance because everything is still within factory spec, there also isn't an option to select it in comparison sites. So am I being insured because my car could go 4.2s 0-60, as opposed to 4.8s without?

Reading more into it than what I said. They do make perfect sense for the type of driver I mentioned and make less sense for the longer distance driver, surely you can accept that as a fact. I never said that they are only suitable for people who wouldn't need to charge before getting home. For me that is not an option as I would rather spend more time with my family then hanging around waiting for a charge, as this is high quality time that will never come around again, especially so if you have a young family. It's easy to reflect later in life and regret not spending more time with them.

 

I don't see what the extra HP has to do with the DVLA, its the insurance companies who would have the issue, DVLA are more worried about collecting the revenue on the car and ensuring it has a current MOT. No if the revenue on the car was based upon its HP rating then yes, they would not like it to have the upgrade with being declared and the proper tax paid.

17 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Reading more into it than what I said. They do make perfect sense for the type of driver I mentioned and make less sense for the longer distance driver, surely you can accept that as a fact. I never said that they are only suitable for people who wouldn't need to charge before getting home.

Sorry I didn't understand. Run-on sentences didn't help.

 

I don't fully understand why would anyone go to motorway service to slowly charge their car. It's obvious this is where rapid chargers should be installed, to which you say you totally agree. I can't spot anything here that talks why EV is unsuitable for certain people. This bit only talks about where need to have rapid chargers and not all destinations have chargers.

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Totally agree with your point on this and I have always done so, but when at services, normally you would be there (unless not able to charge at home) because you were on route to somewhere, so that is where I would expect rapid charging to be the main stay of chargers, especially on routes such as motorways as nobody is going to drive to a motorway service point and charge their car on a slow charger especially when you have supplier imposed time limits for instance. Also destination chargers are not possible at every destination, even at work as many companies are not able to even provide parking spaces for their staff.

 

Then you pointed to the above as reason for why EV isn't suitable for many......

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

This why I said you're missing the point. EV's make perfect sense for a lot of people if they can get to where they need to be, and back again comfortably, without needing to charge before getting home again. For many this is not the case.

 

 

Regarding longer distance driver. It's one of those very simple things, such as how many hours that driver can drive without going to toilet 😅 My point earlier was that people got to do rest stops and long range EV gives many charging options over a large search area.

 

But I think I finally grasping what you are trying to say when you've explained your example about visiting young relatives and combine with earlier saying not all destination have chargers.

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I don't fully understand why would anyone go to motorway service to slowly charge their car. It's obvious this is where rapid chargers should be installed, to which you say you totally agree. I can't spot anything here that talks why EV is unsuitable for certain people. This bit only talks about where need to have rapid chargers and not all destinations have chargers.

There was mention of motorway services having slow chargers with reference to the discussions of the JOG to LE trips that YouTubers have recently done.

6 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Then you pointed to the above as reason for why EV isn't suitable for many......

Simply because many drivers do not want to wait for a charge and maybe longer if there is a queue, they would much rather be at home with their loved ones.

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Regarding longer distance driver. It's one of those very simple things, such as how many hours that driver can drive without going to toilet 😅 My point earlier was that people got to do rest stops and long range EV gives many charging options over a large search area.

 

But I think I finally grasping what you are trying to say when you've explained your example about visiting young relatives and combine with earlier saying not all destination have chargers.

Once again, you have misunderstood what I said. The charging stops being referred to were not because of the length of time they had been driving, more to do with the inability to charge on destination charger at the point of destination. They might be at work, or like me at a national event like an International Air Show watching an air show and then facing a drive which would be extended due to needing to charge. Therefore, there is absolutely no need to take a break.

 

Where did the visiting young relatives come into the equation? I was referring to one's own children and the wife etc. 🙄

Lets get this right.

 

7 kW chargers have been called FAST Chargers for years now.  They are Slow, but a PHEV that only charges at 3.6 kW might use them, or someone in an hour or 2 at services that just needs a FAST charge on a 7kw Charger.

Or people that want to 100% in a BEV and finish off the last 10% or more on the AC.

 

Rapid chargers are 22 kW-43 kW AC or 50 kW for many people and called RAPID Chargers. 

 

 

 

Edited 6 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

"Ultra rapid" is now being used to describe speeds faster than 50kW rapid, all the way to 350 kW rapid chargers. Another very confusing name, not distinguishing between 400v and 800v system, amp limits of different chargers. 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Once again, you have misunderstood what I said. The charging stops being referred to were not because of the length of time they had been driving, more to do with the inability to charge on destination charger at the point of destination. They might be at work, or like me at a national event like an International Air Show watching an air show and then facing a drive which would be extended due to needing to charge. Therefore, there is absolutely no need to take a break.

I have been in such situations, going somewhere, spend most of the day and come back needed a small top up. But at the same time, when coming back, Tesla superchargers are often at peak pricing. What I do is just find a charger near destination and top up for 10min before arriving. It's really not that big of a hassle and most importantly this completely avoids any possibility of queues. 

 

Thanks for the 3 post clear up explanation though. I got really confused looking at it in isolation.