I watch Outback Truckers. 

Amazeball stuff, the rains and the communities running out. Than goodness for solar and batteries and energy generated and stored.

But they need diesel fuel right enough. 

 

WTF has it to do with the UK or cars coming in from China or anyplace far far away where they also have huge fires, or floods?

24 minutes ago, @Lee said:

How long do you think those tanks will keep a farm working?

In the outback you say? So plenty of sunlight or wind available in Australia

 

FFS, its not about keeping a farm going, its about survival in a natural disaster like an out of control wildfire, or do you really want to people to be burnt alive because their EV car does not have a full charge?

It has zero to do with the day-to-day functionality and life, can you not see that???

 

Edit;

The size of the tanks in the photo I used is not meant to be typical of the size used for large farms, just an illustration of what I was talking about, fuel tanks with no electric pumps for dispensing fuel into vehicles, tractors and the like.

Edited 7 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

Nobodies making people in Australia get EV,s anytime soon are they if they do not need or want them?

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 or do you really want to people to be burnt alive because their EV car does not have a full charge?

 

Give your head a wobble 🤦

Just now, Rooted said:

Nobodies making people in Australia get EV,s anytime soon are they if they do not need or want them?

As I understand it yes, they like us are introducing a ban on new ICE vehicles, hence their concern. 

3 minutes ago, @Lee said:

 

Give your head a wobble 🤦

I have done that and guess what, it didn't fall off, sorry about that 🤷‍♂️

 

But guess what, this is a serious matter, it is not some YouTuber with clickbait after views. 

Edited 7 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

17 minutes ago, @Lee said:

In the outback you say? So plenty of sunlight or wind available in Australia

 

Great riposte 👍

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

 

Great riposte 👍

I totally agree 100% under normal circumstances, but we are not talking about normality here 😬

So possibly a ban on the sale of Petrol & Diesels in 2035 like in the EU / UK.

 

Well they just need to keep their ICE vehicles running, or buy new before the sales stop.

That should see them OK until 2050 or later, or until WW III or end of the life as we know it. 

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

or do you really want to people to be burnt alive because their EV car does not have a full charge?

 

Why is your concern only regarding Outback Farmers, they will be the last people in the world to be reliant on public charging, they will already be keeping their fuel tanks topped off, carrying spares, wheels, tools, water and survival equipment. They will do exactly the same when they have EV's to maximise their savings from the free solar energy

 

They also know how to walk and protect themselves from natural hazards.

 

Its the numpties living in flats etc with no home charging, those that frequently run out of petrol and diesel and then call the breakdown services that are at risk, Darwin in action, pun intended.

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

we are not talking about normality here 😬

 

Good to see you have some self awareness.

16 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Why is your concern only regarding Outback Farmers, they will be the last people in the world to be reliant on public charging, they will already be keeping their fuel tanks topped off, carrying spares, wheels, tools, water and survival equipment. They will do exactly the same when they have EV's to maximise their savings from the free solar energy

 

They also know how to walk and protect themselves from natural hazards.

 

Its the numpties living in flats etc with no home charging, those that frequently run out of petrol and diesel and then call the breakdown services that are at risk, Darwin in action, pun intended.

Over simplification, I think. So you could always be 100% sure that after your return home in the outback, late in the afternoon or evening from a trip into the nearest city or town, when the sun has gone down that you could recharge your EV to make sure that the battery was topped off then yes? Even if you plugged in the charger, if the power had gone due to fire, you could be at the mercy of the fire because your battery does not have enough charge to get you to safety.

 

Why is it that people cannot picture the scene for what it is an emergency and these things do happen.

 

 

Edited 7 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

I picture Australia & other countries running out of drinking water, or other places have earthquakes or a tsunami.

Plagues of locust, rats, mice etc. 

But i really am not going to lose sleep over it. 

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Why is it that people cannot picture the scene for what it is an emergency and these things do happen.

 

Positive Mental Attitude.

 

 As an exception that is the only one of your dumb rhetorical questions that I will answer

Edited 7 December, 20232 yr by J.R.

7 minutes ago, Rooted said:

I picture Australia & other countries running out of drinking water, or other places have earthquakes or a tsunami.

Plagues of locust, rats, mice etc. 

But i really am not going to lose sleep over it. 

Glad to hear it, but I was not expecting anyone to, I was merely posting about something that was going on and thought it was worthy of posting.

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

I picture Australia & other countries running out of drinking water, or other places have earthquakes or a tsunami.

Plagues of locust, rats, mice etc. 

But i really am not going to lose sleep over it. 

 

Panama canal running lower and lower with its water level meaning moving bulk goods across America.

 

This climate change is a barsteward.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Over simplification, I think. So you could always be 100% sure that after your return home in the outback, late in the afternoon or evening from a trip into the nearest city or town, when the sun has gone down that you could recharge your EV to make sure that the battery was topped off then yes? Even if you plugged in the charger, if the power had gone due to fire, you could be at the mercy of the fire because your battery does not have enough charge to get you to safety.

 

Why is it that people cannot picture the scene for what it is an emergency and these things do happen.

Before heading back, quickly check home battery. If not enough to recharge, pop to the nearest rapid charger.

 

The key is, as always been, living off the land. In places with known unreliable power grid, solar and battery transforms people's living standards. EV can only add to this sense of freedom.

 

Africa are making good use of their solar. Don't need the stinking grid.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/09/africa-solar-power-potential/

 

Imagine you have a mini diesel well at back of your garden and can top up your car with it for free.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Before heading back, quickly check home battery. If not enough to recharge, pop to the nearest rapid charger.

 

The key is, as always been, living off the land. In places with known unreliable power grid, solar and battery transforms people's living standards. EV can only add to this sense of freedom.

 

Africa are making good use of their solar. Don't need the stinking grid.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/09/africa-solar-power-potential/

 

Imagine you have a mini diesel well at back of your garden and can top up your car with it for free.

I'm really struggling to see how you are all ignoring the potential seriousness of situations like this.

 

Yes, I do understand about checking the charge level before making the return trip and maybe topping it up. 

 

Yes I understand all about the high levels of sunshine in Australia, hell I have family members living out there, so I'm not wet behind the ears.

 

Yes I also understand all about the possibilities of having wind generators also, as well as batteries to store the power and then invert back to usable power for use in the house and also charge the EV car.

 

I also understand get the point about the ability to charge the car for free.

 

So if I get all that and understand that it is all good and is very positive, why is it that you all just cannot grasp the fact that EV's cannot go as far as an ICE car when both are fully fuelled, the ICE is likely to have a greater range. An ICE can be refuelled in just a few minutes so even in an emergency life and death situation, an ICE can be filled up and is ready to go in about 5 minutes or less, even from the point where the refuel light comes on. You cannot do that with an EV, even if you have the mains power on and solar / wind generation also working.

 

Now imagine an EV being fully topped before making the return journey, which may be a couple of hundred miles away from the nearest city, where you went to do the weekly shopping trip or whatever, and this is a real situation for many people over there, it is a vast country.

 

You drive home and after a short while, you are ordered by the authorities to evacuate your house and the area due to a wildfire rapidly approaching your locality and all around the area is a forested area for several miles, your EV only has about 10% charge left after the long drive home and needs around 8 hours of charging time to top it back to 80% or higher. If the fire does reach you, your chances of survival are pretty slim.

 

If you had a diesel car, even if the tanks are running low after your long drive home, in a matter of minutes it can be filled to the brim from your farm tank(s) even without electricity. Your family and pets can all be loaded into the car, and you can be driving away from danger and headed to safety. Later, hopefully the fire dept were able to stop the fire, so then you all can return home again, thanks to the fact that you were able to refuel your car in mere minutes.

 

What is so hard about imaging yourself being in that position?

 

Instead, everyone seems to think, I couldn't care less about other people's positions as long it does not affect them. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy?

 

I'm getting tired of other people's indifference, and it nearly always seems to be in the main part, to be those that already have an EV are the ones burying their heads in the sand and ignoring what are real possibilities.

 

No this is not me having a pop at you either, just a statement of truth, the Australian MP's question/statement in their government seems to be being taken as a joke, when it shouldn't. I can feel empathy for the plight of others, and don't understand why others cannot do the same. 

 

 

Edited 7 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

17 hours ago, Rooted said:

McMaster might have learned the lesson the hard way.  Depreciation.  

 

Stupid to talk about RRP & taxes now and depreciation from that.

It is what you paid and what you can get.

Keep it 10 years and it is cheap Premium Car motoring. 

Much as with any car. Keep it 15 years and even better.

Now that I agree, I would still be driving my old car, which would now be over 10 years old, and I'd be very happy with it, safe in the knowledge that I knew all of its history, being its only driver from the day I collected it new, from the showroom, low miles, high reliability, spiciness and comfortable and would more than likely still be driving it in another 10 years time. By which time it all of its carbon footprint would have been paid off handsomely. I could never see the point in replacing cars every three years, even higher miler company cars could be stretched out to 4 or more years.

 

Yes its always nice to get a new car, but if you chose wisely in the first place, then you have the right car for you and so it does not become a chore to put up with it for longer. Add to the mix, the reduction of BIK taxation after a certain period of time, what's not to like?

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm really struggling to see how you are all ignoring the potential seriousness of situations like this.

 

Yes, I do understand about checking the charge level before making the return trip and maybe topping it up. 

 

Yes I understand all about the high levels of sunshine in Australia, hell I have family members living out there, so I'm not wet behind the ears.

 

Yes I also understand all about the possibilities of having wind generators also, as well as batteries to store the power and then invert back to usable power for use in the house and also charge the EV car.

 

I also understand get the point about the ability to charge the car for free.

Glad you recognise the up sides. In case you weren't aware, you never directly acknowledged the benefits of electrification in the Australia outback.

 

You brushed off all benefits, "over simplification", and focused on extreme cases. Although very valid concern for someone living in such situation, it is similar to EV fires, we are discussing this as armchair experts. We have very little to add. 

 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

So if I get all that and understand that it is all good and is very positive, why is it that you all just cannot grasp the fact that EV's cannot go as far as an ICE car when both are fully fuelled, the ICE is likely to have a greater range. An ICE can be refuelled in just a few minutes so even in an emergency life and death situation, an ICE can be filled up and is ready to go in about 5 minutes or less, even from the point where the refuel light comes on. You cannot do that with an EV, even if you have the mains power on and solar / wind generation also working.

 

Now imagine an EV being fully topped before making the return journey, which may be a couple of hundred miles away from the nearest city, where you went to do the weekly shopping trip or whatever, and this is a real situation for many people over there, it is a vast country.

 

You drive home and after a short while, you are ordered by the authorities to evacuate your house and the area due to a wildfire rapidly approaching your locality and all around the area is a forested area for several miles, your EV only has about 10% charge left after the long drive home and needs around 8 hours of charging time to top it back to 80% or higher. If the fire does reach you, your chances of survival are pretty slim.

In such extreme remote area, EV would not be the sole answer, it will only be part of their fleet, the daily driver. No one has ever said it is the sole answer for everyone on Earth. But as already been pointed out, the individual only need to worry about finding solution after 5-15 years of ban of new ICE sales. 

 

However, it has also been pointed out, does it concern us? In a small country that the longest distance end-to-end is less than 900 miles. Almost never 50 miles away from civilisation. Here, EV is very suitable for overwhelming vast majority and should be adopted as quickly as possible. 

 

 

Weird if in the likes of Australia those distant into the country are not using hydrogen that can be produced from solar or wind to run machinery and vehicles.

There will be those doing that unless the liquid fuels are cheap. maybe even ethanol. Like in South America.

 

.........

Largest distance from the Sea is 75 miles or less i the UK. As birds fly. 

Not as hang gliders / gliders etc fly it is the same as roads, more miles will be covered as you do not head in a straight line.

 

Seeing as the centre of any part of the UK is higher than sea level you probably use less energy going from the centre of the country or just inland to the coast than getting back.

Just an ickle difference or quite a difference in energy regened & used.

 

As to the big Events with 10,s of thousands visiting events then Park & Ride makes environmental sense for many, Open Golf etc.

 

Just do not use Buses & Mini Buses that require charging and diesel generators are fired up to charge them. 

 

At airshows the pollution and waste of fuel flying in planes & bringing in fuel, and people and stuff is not very environmentally friendly anyway, 

just like flying VIPs to COP 28 and all the COPS before. 

 

Motorsports or Motorsport Heritage events are wasting their time trying to greenwash events.

That includes Formula-e or e-Extreme.  Rallying with Hybrids etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

36 minutes ago, Rooted said:

At airshows the pollution and waste of fuel flying in planes & bringing in fuel, and people and stuff is not very environmentally friendly anyway, 

just like flying VIPs to COP 28 and all the COPS before. 

According to Eastbourne airshow, audience travel makes up over 95% of emissions. 

https://www.visiteastbourne.com/airshow/plan-your-visit/sustainability

It was sunny few weeks and that trip was charged from my rooftop solar when I went this year.  The car park I used was mostly ICE cars. May be they need to get more people driving EV  

 

Can't argue with the second point. Also flying for holidays, which I have done multiple times yearly. 

Mark Harper MP is the UK Transport Minister.

So maybe he is talking about the UK Motorway services and not just Englands.  '10 trial sites in England'.

 

*No Motorways so no Motorway Services north of Perth. so that will be the top 1/4 of Mainland UK. 

 

Edited 8 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Glad you recognise the up sides. In case you weren't aware, you never directly acknowledged the benefits of electrification in the Australia outback.

 

You brushed off all benefits, "over simplification", and focused on extreme cases. Although very valid concern for someone living in such situation, it is similar to EV fires, we are discussing this as armchair experts. We have very little to add. 

Wrong the "over simplification" comment I made was not in relation to anything you had said, it was a reply to comments made by J.R., go back 12 posts and check it out.

 

That comment was made because of the comments he made by people who live in these remote areas, re walking etc with total disregard to just how dangerous and fast moving such events are. Those people live in those locations, rearing cattle etc so that the rest of the population can eat.

 

Electrification is a great benefit anywhere, not just in the Australian outback. That said, surely banning new ICE cars by a certain date is not the right way forward, until such time as it possible to match the capabilities of ICE cars, which in the fulness of time, I expect will come. To do so before then, is actually going backwards.

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

In such extreme remote area, EV would not be the sole answer, it will only be part of their fleet, the daily driver. No one has ever said it is the sole answer for everyone on Earth. But as already been pointed out, the individual only need to worry about finding solution after 5-15 years of ban of new ICE sales. 

 

However, it has also been pointed out, does it concern us? In a small country that the longest distance end-to-end is less than 900 miles. Almost never 50 miles away from civilisation. Here, EV is very suitable for overwhelming vast majority and should be adopted as quickly as possible. 

Firstly, would you not agree that producing the food that we all eat is a number 1 priority? Is that not what these people in the outback are doing? So is it right and fair that they should have to depend on keeping old worn out and unreliable vehicles going and hope that they don't break.

 

I agree, the UK is never really more than approximately 50 miles from some form of civilisation, but if that is how people are viewing this then its sad that they cannot see the bigger broader picture, for all of humanity.

Edited 8 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

2 hours ago, Rooted said:

Weird if in the likes of Australia those distant into the country are not using hydrogen that can be produced from solar or wind to run machinery and vehicles.

There will be those doing that unless the liquid fuels are cheap. maybe even ethanol. Like in South America.

 

.........

Largest distance from the Sea is 75 miles or less i the UK. As birds fly. 

Not as hang gliders / gliders etc fly it is the same as roads, more miles will be covered as you do not head in a straight line.

 

Seeing as the centre of any part of the UK is higher than sea level you probably use less energy going from the centre of the country or just inland to the coast than getting back.

Just an ickle difference or quite a difference in energy regened & used.

 

As to the big Events with 10,s of thousands visiting events then Park & Ride makes environmental sense for many, Open Golf etc.

 

Just do not use Buses & Mini Buses that require charging and diesel generators are fired up to charge them. 

 

At airshows the pollution and waste of fuel flying in planes & bringing in fuel, and people and stuff is not very environmentally friendly anyway, 

just like flying VIPs to COP 28 and all the COPS before. 

 

Motorsports or Motorsport Heritage events are wasting their time trying to greenwash events.

That includes Formula-e or e-Extreme.  Rallying with Hybrids etc.

Again, I have no argument with any of this, but once again, surely all of these points should have been addressed and in place before anyone started the banning of ICE vehicles. 

 

How many members involved in these discussions take flights or ships to go away on holiday for instance? I know I don't.