1 hour ago, toot said:

@Graham Butcher4 counties in the UK and they are certainly not all in your vicinity. 

When was the last time of many you were pulled in for a 'Roadside check',  how many years ago,

or with 'Traffic cops'. Motorway Cops' or Interceptors how many years ago episodes are you watching?

 

When did you have DOT, VOSA / DVSA testers into the bus stations?   This will have been in England no doubt, like where the MOT stations are fully booked with cars / vehicles and nobody gets a first thing in the morning test.

 

Yes there are checks, usually when trying to disrupt crime, or like this in 2014 when there was going to be protesters turning up at Turnberry.

This is a good way to delay and gather intelligence.

 

The difference between you and me is me working at and hanging about garages and you at bus stations and maybe getting a MOT occasionally.

 

 

There are still DOT checks on major routes in England and they dedicated sites sites with buildings and even pits in them which they use for HGV checks, cars and light vans are also directed to these sites at times by vehicles with "Follow Me" signs switched on. 

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

36 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There are still DOT checks on major routes in the UK

OFF TOPIC WARNING

 

The last time I was pulled over into one of these was on the A303 in the Wylye Valley - in 1998 while driving a motorhome.

 

The advice they gave was ridiculous - move a heavy weight (electric scooter motor and gearbox assembly) from low down on the floor at the rear to over the cab in the luton - to reduce the rear axle weight by 30kg. That amount of weight nearly 7 feet up made the handling questionable to say the least...

 

Back to the topic, I think this thread now contains too much personal points scoring and maybe has run it's course and that a halt (temporary or permanent) might be a good idea?

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by PetrolDave

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh please, I never said it was either, I'm saying that the payment system needs to be sorted and quickly, people will get stranded miles from home. I just knew that someone would rush to the attack as it seems that loads of EV owners cannot see the problem that he was highlighting and you just proved the point and took it as me against EV, which is utter rubbish.

I understand what you are saying and I was agreeing with you, see my post you've quoted.

 

You keep saying I view you as against EV. But all I'm doing is pointed out your use of wording reads like you against "you EV lovers".

Same again here, no one "rushed to the attack", why must everything be an attack or defence? Who is this meant to fight against?

 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

So using my experience and seeing my local Skoda test centre carry out MOT's it still seems to be pretty strict to me, even down to I have to remove the TomTom satnav from the car as it is mounted low on the dash as I'm very tall and can clearly see over the top of it, the MOT tester is short and always insists it is removed prior to the test.

That's an advisory:

"Items removed from driver's view prior to test" 

1 hour ago, toot said:

For the Dude in the Video he really needs to try an InstaVolt or PodPoint, tap your card as at a pump for liquid fuel, 

or as you do inside a filling station kiosk.

Even put it in the reader & put in your PIN. 

I think the issue is the pre-auth amount per charging attempt and low charger reliability means sometimes multiple tries is required.

 

Genie point with their low reliability is £35 pre-auth per attempt: https://www.speakev.com/threads/genie-point-pre-auth-price-increase.179332/

Instavolt seems to be £15 or £30: https://instavolt.co.uk/faqs/

Podpoint is also £30: https://pod-point.com/legal/public-charger-terms-of-use

 

This is the story with BP I talked about earlier: https://www.speakev.com/threads/should-we-be-boycotting-bp-pulse-for-sharp-practices.167226/

 

 

I always use credit card and have high limit cards, so pre-auth isn't a worry for me personally. But i can see it being a problem for debit cards or people living on the limit.

I am peed off with Aberdeen and charging £1 to connect and getting no connection or charge.

 

Charge Place Scotland are saying not their problem talk to Aberdeen council.

I have told them it is very much their problem, they invoice and take the money and VAT for a service not provided.

 

While this goes on i have charged twice at chargers in Aberdeenshire (That is not Aberdeen) and no charge of 47 pence a kWh or the £1 connections has been made, 

or on my account.

So i will let it go this time.  Well maybe, because they can miss taking money if that is how crap their infrastructure is but they are not getting paid for having faulty chargers that they never bother having fixed right in Aberdeen.

 

*I have had hundreds of quids of free charging where there should be tariff charged because CPS, BP Polar /SWARCO who run things and now SWARCO are so useless.*   Which is nice.

 

With PodPoint i have my credit & have never had any loss of phone reception or unable to use the app.

I do use a credit card.

 

BP Pulse has my Credit, and now i have my Subscription finally.

I will seemingly get a £9 voucher for 5 months.

That is all i will use them for to use that £9, and then where i have to use BP Pulse Chargers with CPS in Edinburgh.

Now 55 pence a kWh.

 

I have the Motability Go Charge card now that has the payments all in one place for the partners with them.

 

I have my Tesla account now, my Evyve account, my MFG Connect so pretty much sorted.

 

Never used the LiFe ev card or app but used the charger and tapped my card.

Never used Electroverse, EV Charging or some others that are all on my phone & have been for 3 years.

Some sent key fob cards.

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by toot

No such thing as precharging a card (OK there is for prepaid debit cards) and the money is not debited from the account so anyone saying they got them to return it in 24 hours or whatever has misunderstood, your account balance does not change through a préautorisation it is only debitted for the value of the fuel pumped.

 

But they might as well have taken the préautorisation amount as it is set aside and you can no longer spend it during the period it is effective.

 

Good merchants will cancel the préautorisation as soon as the debit or credit card payment has cleared, others do nothing and you have to wait for the time-out, maybe 4 or 5 working days?

@J.R.I take it you mean no way of pre-charging a CREDIT CARD. 

It gives Credit, and you can have money paid into your card and more than your Credit limit available, actually never taking Credit.

 

The issue is Good Merchants and finding out after the fact who they are. 

 

BP Pulse were holding money for 29 days but then this is EV charging i am talking about.

 

There are EV drivers or those charging vehicles un-aware that there might be a card reader on a charger and that is the design of the charger but that particular charger does not take contactless payments.

It might in the future once on the system. 

 

Connectivity of chargers, SIM / Mobile reception is an issue in Scotland for RFID cards, or apps, but where you can do a contactless payment that might be the most reliable, or quick way. 

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by toot

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I think the issue is the pre-auth amount per charging attempt and low charger reliability means sometimes multiple tries is required.

 

Genie point with their low reliability is £35 pre-auth per attempt: https://www.speakev.com/threads/genie-point-pre-auth-price-increase.179332/

Instavolt seems to be £15 or £30: https://instavolt.co.uk/faqs/

Podpoint is also £30: https://pod-point.com/legal/public-charger-terms-of-use

 

This is the story with BP I talked about earlier: https://www.speakev.com/threads/should-we-be-boycotting-bp-pulse-for-sharp-practices.167226/

 

 

I always use credit card and have high limit cards, so pre-auth isn't a worry for me personally. But i can see it being a problem for debit cards or people living on the limit.

Nailed it at last👍

The point is Read the T&C.s

 

Once you have done some driving and charging you might know exactly what you want or need to gen up on.

If you keep having the same issues and do not bother finding out why or how things operate then so be it 

 

Like the PodPoint, £30 pre charging with contactless and then charged the actual cost after charging finished, so at 44 pence a kWh or 62 pence 

You are under £30 or over it.  but that is 50 kWh on a Rapid purchased to be over £30.

 

The App is good and it is simple to use and to put credit on as and when you need to from your registered account.

There can be Mobile Reception issues at charger locations though. 

Something really that is ridiculous as the infrastructure is rolled out.   But Mobile reception is like that in many places in the UK. Pathetic.

 

As to Genie, well that is a problem, they are a problem.

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by toot

22 minutes ago, toot said:

The point is Read the T&C.s

 

Once you have done some driving and charging you might know exactly what you want or need to gen upon.

If you keep having the same issues and do not bother finding out why or how things operate then so be it 

 

Like the PodPoint, £30 pre charging with contactless and then charged the actual cost after charging finished, so at 44 pence a kWh or 62 pence 

You are under £30 or over it.  but that is 50 kWh on a Rapid purchased to be over £30.

 

The App is good and it is simple to use and to put credit on as and when you need to from your registered account.

There can be Mobile Reception issues at charger locations though. 

Something really that is ridiculous as the infrastructure is rolled out.   But Mobile reception is like that in many places in the UK. Pathetic.

 

As to Genie, well that is a problem, they are a problem.

But the whole thrust of the video was IMO about the fact charging needs to be just as easy as buying petrol is. Older folk especially have a built in mistrust of any cardbased or app based system and would much rather pay a cashier than hope that they can get a signal or whatever. My Mil for instance has a mobile phone that BIL got her, she has it for a while now but does not use it. Touch screen is not user friendly and anyone with Parkinsons will struggle. These are the real issues that the video was making and cards that need preauthorising are a bad idea if they downscale if there is not funds in bank to cover it. People could be left stranded away from home. 

But nobody has to get an EV if they do not want one, which is the crux of the matter.

 

We know it needs to be simple, because many people can only do simple.

It is not like it has not been said for years now, so things are changing.    Touch screen is pretty useless for many right handed people in right hand drive cars.

 

And there are gear stick / shifters with buttons on lights to suit left hand drive cars. 

 

We have to worry about all these people that can not afford to visit London in non compliant cars and have not £12.50 or exemption, 

and will be broke if penalised. 

 

........

MOTABILITY is trying to make it much easier for those leasing cars from them. drivers or passengers.

Chargers need to be easier to use for the infirm, wheelchair bound etc.

 

Planners / designers need to get in a wheel chair and try charging an EV.

Or even fueling an ICE vehicle. 

 

http://pauatech.com

 

 

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by toot

agreed 100% toot .... planners /council jobs worth dont even go out to check road works were completed safely ... id back any move to get those apparently in charge to actually do just that ... spend a day understanding the hiccups wayfinding in every day life its not just signs and routes, its also seeing the real everyday life world with 'strangers eyes'  

 

tom

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by promomast

Angus Council had a sign up when building a new EV hub in Forfar and took it down before the place openned.

 

I asked why no signs on the A90 to direct drivers to where the hub is since so many get lost.

The Roads Convener told me he would contact the roads department. 

Nothing.

 

All around Scotland it is the same, signs saying Services or Park & Ride, but as for directing to EV Chargers. Nothing. 

 

There are EU funded or partially funded hubs all around and no signs to show that.

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by toot

It's funny. During day outs, I often joke to my wife that if I'm injured, she can't get home. Because after 1 year with Tesla, she still hasn't sat in the driver's seat. She's just not interested in driving. She always replies she can uber/taxi to nearest train station and get home.

 

Not sure what my point is TBH. May be there's always options to not get stranded? I know AutoAid breakdown covers EV out-of-juice situations.

 

 

Last time I had trouble rapid charging was a few years ago, I miscalculated and need a small top up in the Leaf. 1st was offline, 2nd single charger was occupied, 3rd wouldn't start.

Since then, 1st location South Mimms now have 8 chargers installed, not including 12 Tesla ones. 2nd location was Shell garage down A1, now have 8 chargers. Third location, another Shell, has had charger removed. But a few min up the road there's Instavolt.

 

The charging situation is improving at vast speed.

19 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

It's funny. During day outs, I often joke to my wife that if I'm injured, she can't get home. Because after 1 year with Tesla, she still hasn't sat in the driver's seat. She's just not interested in driving. She always replies she can uber/taxi to nearest train station and get home.

 

Not sure what my point is TBH. May be there's always options to not get stranded? I know AutoAid breakdown covers EV out-of-juice situations.

 

 

Last time I had trouble rapid charging was a few years ago, I miscalculated and need a small top up in the Leaf. 1st was offline, 2nd single charger was occupied, 3rd wouldn't start.

Since then, 1st location South Mimms now have 8 chargers installed, not including 12 Tesla ones. 2nd location was Shell garage down A1, now have 8 chargers. Third location, another Shell, has had charger removed. But a few min up the road there's Instavolt.

 

The charging situation is improving at vast speed.

And it needs to aid EV take up otherwise the plans might stall. 

24 minutes ago, toot said:

Angus Council had a sign up when building a new EV hub in Forfar and took it down before the place openned.

 

I asked why no signs on the A90 to direct drivers to where the hub is since so many get lost.

The Roads Convener told me he would contact the roads department. 

Nothing.

 

All around Scotland it is the same, signs saying Services or Park & Ride, but as for directing to EV Chargers. Nothing. 

 

There are EU funded or partially funded hubs all around and no signs to show that.

I doubt Westminster would allow references to the EU funding. 🤣

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

And it needs to aid EV take up otherwise the plans might stall. 

 

There is no real chance that the EV uptake will stall, it is just a juggernaut now and there are just so many positives, nearly all financial, that make it an inevitability.

 

I anticipate some slowing if the EU car makes canvas the EU to add Anti-Dumping to Chinese made EVs, it what the EU does in so many cases, even did it for some solar equipment parts incredibly.

 

Just taxed my year old Arkana, UK gov want £16 a month road tax, my Zoe is free, has been for 2 years, will be for another two years.  Zoe will be serviced later this month, a B service, less than £150 quid, Arkana will be nearly twice that.  Zoe costs less than a five for its nearly 250 miles of range, Arkana cost about £80 to fill up or £25 to splash a dash 250 miles of range and at that is at today's prices which ae 6p a litre more than 3 months ago and Saudi has said it is going to maintain is million barrel a day cut in production for the rest of the year so we are nearly at £7 a gallon and when is it going to level off again, spring next year ?

 

Dacia Spring in RHD is only a few months away from being launched, massively popular car on the continent.  Month to month running cost ie PCP plus fuel, likely to be cheaper than the ICE equivalents.  So barring the UK, and/or the EU, stopping these Chinese cars coming in the EV to ICE equality in overall cost looks like coming in next year and that should bring another batch of doubters over from the Dark side.   

 

 

6 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

There is no real chance that the EV uptake will stall, it is just a juggernaut now and there are just so many positives, nearly all financial, that make it an inevitability.

 

I anticipate some slowing if the EU car makes canvas the EU to add Anti-Dumping to Chinese made EVs, it what the EU does in so many cases, even did it for some solar equipment parts incredibly.

 

Just taxed my year old Arkana, UK gov want £16 a month road tax, my Zoe is free, has been for 2 years, will be for another two years.  Zoe will be serviced later this month, a B service, less than £150 quid, Arkana will be nearly twice that.  Zoe costs less than a five for its nearly 250 miles of range, Arkana cost about £80 to fill up or £25 to splash a dash 250 miles of range and at that is at today's prices which ae 6p a litre more than 3 months ago and Saudi has said it is going to maintain is million barrel a day cut in production for the rest of the year so we are nearly at £7 a gallon and when is it going to level off again, spring next year ?

 

Dacia Spring in RHD is only a few months away from being launched, massively popular car on the continent.  Month to month running cost ie PCP plus fuel, likely to be cheaper than the ICE equivalents.  So barring the UK, and/or the EU, stopping these Chinese cars coming in the EV to ICE equality in overall cost looks like coming in next year and that should bring another batch of doubters over from the Dark side.   

 

 

I doubt that will be the case much longer, pressure will be mounting to remove incentives as the need to replaced lost revenue from ICE vehicles increases to plug the massive black hole in funds. 

3 hours ago, toot said:

The point is Read the T&C.s

 

Once you have done some driving and charging you might know exactly what you want or need to gen upon.

If you keep having the same issues and do not bother finding out why or how things operate then so be it 

 

Like the PodPoint, £30 pre charging with contactless and then charged the actual cost after charging finished, so at 44 pence a kWh or 62 pence 

You are under £30 or over it.  but that is 50 kWh on a Rapid purchased to be over £30.

 

The App is good and it is simple to use and to put credit on as and when you need to from your registered account.

There can be Mobile Reception issues at charger locations though. 

Something really that is ridiculous as the infrastructure is rolled out.   But Mobile reception is like that in many places in the UK. Pathetic.

 

As to Genie, well that is a problem, they are a problem.

But the whole thrust of the video was IMO about the fact charging needs to be just as easy as buying petrol is. Older folk especially have a built in mistrust of any cardbased or app based system and would much rather pay a cashier than hope that they can get a signal or whatever. My Mil for instance has a mobile phone that BIL got her, she has it for a while now but does not use it. Touch screen is not user friendly and anyone with Parkinsons will struggle. These are the real issues that the video was making and cards that need preauthorising are a bad idea if they downscale if there is not funds in bank to cover it. People could be left stranded away from home. 

That was the first video of its genre that did not have me shutting it down within a couple of seconds like I do with all of the other annoying narcissists, I watched it to the end which is very very unusual.

38 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I doubt that will be the case much longer, pressure will be mounting to remove incentives as the need to replaced lost revenue from ICE vehicles increases to plug the massive black hole in funds.   But the whole thrust of the video was IMO about the fact charging needs to be just as easy as buying petrol is. Older folk especially have a built in mistrust of any cardbased or app based system and would much rather pay a cashier than hope that they can get a signal or whatever. My Mil for instance has a mobile phone that BIL got her, she has it for a while now but does not use it. Touch screen is not user friendly and anyone with Parkinsons will struggle. These are the real issues that the video was making and cards that need preauthorising are a bad idea if they downscale if there is not funds in bank to cover it. People could be left stranded away from home. 

 

Government can try and collect money from EV owners but that is going to be to most difficult of tasks.  Oil Excise duty is the most efficient tax there is, collect the money as the oil leaves the refinery, a small team of Excise Officers collect billions a year in Excise duties and the VAT team do that as well.  There is even VAT on the Excise duty, ta on tax, ha ha.

As to electricity I can download to the house when its super cheaper, send it to the Ev on the drive, pay of 5% ad valorem taxation on that electricity or, if I am bothered, I can use electricity I have collected from sunlight and put that in my EV.  I have already has the EV grants for car and charger, there might no be anymore such grants but EVs are making their own economic case as they become cheaper and cheaper, have more and more range and ways of charging get cheaper too.

 

My only EV charge I have done is via my Electoverse Octopus card, no prepayment that I am aware of, I get a discount off the unit cost of electricity and it is billed on to my monthly Octopus home account, yes even for electricity from public chargers, and if i use quite a lot and my DD needs to go up then fair enough.  Octopus kindly gave me £10 credit to get started with on Electoverse, still only used £8 of it.  Currently paying £125 a month for home electricity, which includes 7k miles of EV charging plus the house use and home gas as well and for a bit of public EV charging and I am over £200 in credit with Octopus going in to the winter and looking at Octopus doing big price falls in unit price of lecky/gas in both 10 days and 23 days time. 

 

EV charging, what hassle ? Charge at home, almost never have to charge away from home unless at free destination chargers.  Hassle taking the petrol hybrid, stopping at motorway service to be ripped off with petrol at £1.78p a litre just because that is when the fuel light came on, pay more than 5 times the cost per mile for the energy upload of petrol rather than electricity (fortunately I do not fully pay as pay for gas with company fuel card).

 

Brilliant EVs coming in at less that £40k RRP for great PCP and lease details.  Maybe government will reduce or eliminate salary sacrifice for EVs, such deals can easily save me £200 a month as a higher rate ie 40% tax payer, even paid 45% at the beginning of this tax year, that could save government loads as stop giving double benefits to already well off who are paid north of £50k a year.     

  

Oil is easy to collect tax on, electricity, no chance.  Road tax yes coming in eventually in couple of years time. Road pricing, good luck with that if you are ready to see people stop using motorways and coming through the cities, towns and villages like we have people circumventing the Birmingham toll road.  They need to have a good think on this.

 

21 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Oil is easy to collect tax on, electricity, no chance

 

Those words will come back to haunt you and you will be worthy of the schaudenfreude.

18 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Those words will come back to haunt you and you will be worthy of the schaudenfreude.

 

How ?

 

As a professional tax collector, and more recently professional tax avoider, just how will the government increase the tax on EVs, other than road taxing EVs like ICE which we EV drivers are expecting ?

13 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

How ?

 

As a professional tax collector, and more recently professional tax avoider, just how will the government increase the tax on EVs, other than road taxing EVs like ICE which we EV drivers are expecting ?

 

Avoidance is legal and in fact encouraged, like EV salary sacrifice,  which is there to have positive side effects, as is salary sacrifice for pension savings, 40k, 50k, 60k a year as recently the threshold has been raised. Also like bonded warehouse, inward processing relief schemes that I deal with. All tax avoidance scheme UK gov encourages.

Generating your own electricity is like producing your own home brew beer or cider or wine, or even using WVO to run a vehicle for private use.

Excise duty is not easy to impose on these.

24 minutes ago, toot said:

Generating your own electricity is like producing your own home brew beer or cider or wine, or even using WVO to run a vehicle for private use.

Excise duty is not easy to impose on these.

 

WVO, waste vegetable oil ahh.

Had some fun as a customs officer sample farmers land rover tanks for Red Diesel and if found they expected a fine.  Were not so chuffed when told we were seizing the vehicle.   Same thing for vehicles with cans of fuel/diesel bought cheap in Ireland/EU, seizes the fuel and, wait for it, the vehicle as well.

 

There are customs entries for electricity and therefore a commodity code, looks like Excise duties to, did not know that.  Perhaps this is the way to tax electricity as if there is an excise duty on imports there should be an excise duty on electricity production even from homes ?    Less than a penny per kWh which could take an EV 4 miles compared to Excise duty at 52p a litre which might take you 10 miles, plus VAT at 20%.  VAT at 5% for domestic or zero if one has generated it oneself, for now at least.   

£7.75 / 1,000 kilowatt hours (kWh)

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/2716000000

 

My solar arrays are not on my roof but on frames in my garden.  A survey of roofs would not identify I had solar panels generating electricity.  Government would have to do drone overflies to see I had solar panels.  How they would measure such a thing is beyond me, have to think on that one.

Perhaps people will get net to camouflage solar installs with nets like people do with cannabis plantations ?

 

Edited 7 September, 20232 yr by lol-lol