the truth about electric cars

[cheezemonkhai]

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I don't dispute your figures etc, but it is not possible for a large slice of the population and that's why I said that keep referring to home charging is NOT helpful in the slightest. It makes people either believe that having an EV might be beneficial for them now, so they go and buy one, only to discover that not only is there in some cases a lot of red tape and obstacles to overcome that they were not fully aware of prior to buying the car.

 

What is required to help people to switch to EVs is direct comparisons ICE v EV where the methodology of operating is give or take the same for each and the costs need to reflect similarly as well. I have mentioned before that in cities, there are masses of high-rise tower blocks and those people cannot even consider having a home charger installed, older style houses and roads also do not lend themselves to home charging, especially if you cannot even be sure as in my case, of getting a spot outside your own house in order to connect your charger.

 

So please, could everyone cease quoting their home charging figures as it is not a realistic possibility for many people. The sooner governments etc realise the way to speed up the process of converting people from ICE to EV is to make it as painless as possible. That has to start with the initial cost up front when buying the car, then the running costs need to be absolutely on a par with those for ICEs as a worst case scenario. They also need to ensure that there are enough working chargers around and that includes in rural areas to allow people to get tops wherever they are and not have to head into towns and cities and adding to their congestion just in order to get a top-up when you have been to a some outdoor event like Glastonbury for example. People with ICE cars will not normally have any trouble filling up without going into urban areas to do so.

If you have a drive, then an EV charger is possible and an EV can be charged at 2-3p per mile.

 

if you don’t have a drive, then either keep what you have or go for a range extender hybrid (electric drivetrain, engine is a generator only).

 

I think freight will be hydrogen and just like high mileage drivers used to use diesel but everyone normal was petrol, the long range/short stop time drivers might have hydrogen fuel cells.

[Ootohere]

First is Heavy Good vehicles working to and from ports / harbours, Free Ports where there is hydrogen being produced and vehicles doing shorter runs that are using hydrogen and in forests and estates there are logging lorries being trialled, then there are the bus fleets already running on hydrogen like in Aberdeen.  (Or not running as issues arise).

Commercial vehicles are operating in Fife running on hydrogen, but then in Dundee the Council fleet is going Electric.

 

The mix is needed, location location location and horses for courses.

[wyx087]

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What is required to help people to switch to EVs is direct comparisons ICE v EV where the methodology of operating is give or take the same for each and the costs need to reflect similarly as well.

This completely misses the point of having batteries. Might as well throw out any cost benefits and go for expensive green hydrogen in fuel cell if you must need direct replacement.

 

Simply take petrol station mentality across to EV charging does not make any sense what so ever. I've mentioned vehicle-2-X and smart charging many times. It is the reason why BEV are very important part of overall energy solution. Renewables generate unpredictably, BEV when parked can help here.

 

EV ownership without driveway is indeed problematic. There's not much cost benefit and it's not convenient. There's no denying this need to be solved. But I don't think we should solve this by applying petrol station refuel mentality and demand this to be solved by asking those without driveway to rely on expensive rapid charging. Charging speed flexibility is a huge asset to the grid's renewable goals, I think this can be used to reduce public charging cost just like existing smart charging tariffs.

Intelligent Octopus (IO) home tariff is a form of smart charging. There's no reason why this cannot be applied to street level charging, any location where car is likely to be parked for longer than it needs to recharge.  There's leeway to tweak power draw so that demand matches supply, instead of traditionally firing up fossil fuel power stations to make supply to meet demand. Multiply this flexibility across all BEV fleet in a country, we have built a virtual hugely adjustable power demand leaver.

 

Current smart charging tariffs:

https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus/

https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/charge-anytime

 

In 5 years time, V2H would be mature (as in product to buy and cars to use with). That huge battery on the driveway suddenly becomes home battery. May be in 15-25 years time, most chargers will become V2G. We will have built a virtual power plant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_power_plant

 

 

We got to get use to a little forward planning, having all that energy stored and not actively utilised is an expensive luxury/waste. Same as having cash under the pillow vs make them work in stocks and shares (or crypto 😛 )

[Graham Butcher]

You just can't see the wood for the trees, can you, you completely missed the point. Not everyone can have the ability to charge at home for the reasons I keep pointing out but somehow, you totally ignore and gloss over.

 

The market for EV's is luke warm at best and people extolling the virtues of charging at home and how wonderful the world of Tesla's is not going to convince people to cast off their ICE in favour of EVs, when firstly they cannot afford the better class of EV's and Tesla, Polestars etc they are looking at the more budget price end of the market, people do not have the money to splash in this cost of living crisis, and nor do many people have the ablity to charge at home. I suggest that most people who can, either have seen the cost benefits and already made the transition, or are considering doing so.

 

When you consider you can still buy a ICE mini for £22,935 and the equivalent in EV mode, the price jumps up to £32,550 many people will see the EV as being unnecessarily expensive, plus they also see the problems that they will have charging at home and public charges could well mean they will actually cost more to run than the ICE version.

 

Now, it might be difficult for you to understand, but try and see it this way, if people could buy the EV at the same or very close to the same price as the ICE model, that would remove objection number 1. People are used to having to go to a garage for fuel, so if they could go to a public charging point and could charge at similar price to filling an ICE car, that removes obstacle number 2, not being able to charge at home for the reasons I've mentioned many times before. If some can get a home charger installed, then they might well be laughing all the way to the bank.

 

To achieve that there needs to be plenty of charging points close to home. They would then be getting the benefits of a nice new car, without incurring a massive price lift in either buying or running and they also be able to feel good about themselves doing their bit for the planet. Winner winner, chicken dinner.

 

Now do you see the point and understand the logic??

[lol-lol]

41 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

 

The market for EV's is luke warm at best...................................

Now do you see the point and understand the logic??

 

Luke warm, hmm      Logic, like sales numbers..

 

[wyx087]

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

EV ownership without driveway is indeed problematic. There's not much cost benefit and it's not convenient. There's no denying this need to be solved.

 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

You just can't see the wood for the trees, can you, you completely missed the point. Not everyone can have the ability to charge at home for the reasons I keep pointing out but somehow, you totally ignore and gloss over.

Have I glossed over the issue? 
 

Point is it’s indeed a problem need solving, it need to be solved in such a way so that everyone can contribute to the renewable energy transition. I laid out the reason why EV are critical part of the transition, how smart public slow charging can help both consumer and grid.
 

Credit where credit is due, you didn’t mention rapid charging and same model of re-energise the vehicle is a must. Also you recognised cost benefit of able to charge at home. 
 

Let me re-iterate, I totally understand there is a have/have not gap that need addressing. And need a top-down strategy for this fast. Unfortunately this kind of “levelling the playing field” is something uk government is very bad at……. 

[Graham Butcher]

8 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Luke warm, hmm      Logic, like sales numbers..

 

Well did you hear him mention the UK, which is the only market I'm interested in. Articles and videos I've read and seen suggest the UK sales for EV is slowing down.

On 08/09/2023 at 14:52, lol-lol said:

 

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/factors-safety-fos-d_1624.html

Typical overall Factors of Safety

Typical overall Factors of Safety:

Equipment	Factor of Safety - FOS -
Aircraft components	1.5 - 2.5
Boilers	3.5 - 6
Bolts	8.5
Cast-iron wheels	20
Engine components	6 - 8
Heavy duty shafting	10 - 12
Lifting equipment - hooks ..	8 - 9
Pressure vessels	3.5 - 6
Turbine components - static	6 - 8
Turbine components - rotating	2 - 3
Spring, large heavy-duty	4.5
Structural steel work in buildings	4 - 6
Structural steel work in bridges	5 - 7
Wire ropes	8 - 9

The aircraft one is a bit worrying. 

[Graham Butcher]

6 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

Have I glossed over the issue? 
 

Point is it’s indeed a problem need solving, it need to be solved in such a way so that everyone can contribute to the renewable energy transition. I laid out the reason why EV are critical part of the transition, how smart public slow charging can help both consumer and grid.
 

Credit where credit is due, you didn’t mention rapid charging and same model of re-energise the vehicle is a must. Also you recognised cost benefit of able to charge at home. 
 

Let me re-iterate, I totally understand there is a have/have not gap that need addressing. And need a top-down strategy for this fast. Unfortunately this kind of “levelling the playing field” is something uk government is very bad at……. 

Glad that you admit it needs resolving, but how do you propose it is done, flatten all tower blocks, level all old unsuitable streets full of terraced houses many of which are barely any wider than a cars length, and rebuild millions of house with drives? The point that I was making was that quoting what you pay for home charging does NOT those that can't and that cannot see a way that they own an EV. Showing that there is a good supporting structure and making public charging no more expensive is a solution to the problem. Like I said, who fills their ICE at home, nobody, so make an EV appear to be as easy and no more expensive than a conventional car to buy, refuel, and run. Geez..... 

[Ootohere]

You can pick up Electric MINI,s for much cheapness.

There are loads of the things about.  (Just not the Level 3 which i really think they are not building.)

 

Vauxhall Corsa Electrics 3 years old low mileage are under £14,000 and some had the RRP @ £34,000 and more 3 years ago.

New ones can be got for much less than the 'Asking Prices' you see about.

 

BMW, Mercedes, VW, JLR can not first register the higher emission ICE in the EU or the UK unless they get lt's of electrified vehicles Registered and on the roads.

Their cars or Partners EV.s.

Because of the Fleet Average Co2 & getting fined on every vehicle sold if they fail to meet the right number.

 

BMW, Daimler Benz & VW deserve the problem because they are behind the Diesel scandal so chickens came home to roost.

They need to punt EV,s even at a loss to sell the high cost ICE vehicles.

Edited 10 September, 2023 by toot

[Graham Butcher]

27 minutes ago, toot said:

You can pick up Electric MINI,s for much cheapness.

There are loads of the things about.  (Just not the Level 3 which i really think they are not building.)

 

Vauxhall Corsa Electrics 3 years old low mileage are under £14,000 and some had the RRP @ £34,000 and more 3 years ago.

New ones can be got for much less than the 'Asking Prices' you see about.

All very true, but why should people who have become accustomed to having new cars be expected to buy a second-hand car with unknown history? There must be simply loads of people living in housing which does not lend itself to home charging for a multitude of reasons. Then there is price disparity between EV and ICE, which does nothing to aid that shift away from ICE vehicles. That is further compounded by the need to buy and install a home charger (if you are able), to take advantage of the cheaper cost of charging at home. 

 

These are the real problems that need to be addressed if the gulf between the haves and the have-nots, is not to widened even further.

 

I have been used to having a brand-new car every three years for over 40 years of my life, and they have been extremely reliable and I always treated the car, even though it was a company car, as if it were my own and so treated them with respect. Never ragged it round, unlike my colleagues did. I looked after my company cars so well that when I retired I knew I would never be able to afford to buy new again, so I purchased my company for a wonderful price, which made perfect sense, I knew the cars complete history. I would be happy to stick with the car for a long time and I did, almost 10 years, and I would still be happy to own it today if some clown had not decided to cause an accident to wrote it off for me 😭.

 

Anyway, the whole point was that people should shown how EV ownership could still be possible even when home charging was currently not possible, and that the transition need not mean second-hand cars, nor did it mean that cost of buying and running was not going to be any higher than their current cars. All ICE owners and drivers have into the habit of driving to fuel station, so why not do the same with EV's, make charging stations as common as normal fuel stations, make the cost comparable and equip all EVs with fast charging as standard, so they don't have to waste hours and hours waiting for a full charge or just a top-up. Supermarkets could be a useful location for this, while cars are charging, the drivers could be shopping and if the car is only being used mainly for short local trips as many are, they would only need a trip there once a week or less.

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Glad that you admit it needs resolving, but how do you propose it is done, flatten all tower blocks, level all old unsuitable streets full of terraced houses many of which are barely any wider than a cars length, and rebuild millions of house with drives? The point that I was making was that quoting what you pay for home charging does NOT those that can't and that cannot see a way that they own an EV.

Why do you always take things to the very extreme?

"all EV's in car parks enter thermal runaway"

"to solve home charging, flatten all tower blocks, level all terraced houses"

 

According to AA, who've forgotten about home EV tariffs, public charging is not keeping pace with residential price drops.

https://www.theaa.com/about-us/newsroom/aa-ev-recharge-report-july-2023

It's similar to petrol prices, goes up quickly but comes down slowly.

 

[wyx087]

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

All ICE owners and drivers have into the habit of driving to fuel station, so why not do the same with EV's, make charging stations as common as normal fuel stations, make the cost comparable and equip all EVs with fast charging as standard, so they don't have to waste hours and hours waiting for a full charge or just a top-up.

When slow charging, people don't "waste hours and hours waiting for a full charge".

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well did you hear him mention the UK, which is the only market I'm interested in. Articles and videos I've read and seen suggest the UK sales for EV is slowing down.

The aircraft one is a bit worrying. 

 

Like this quoting of statistics of 88% growth compared to 1% of petrol .  This is despite no cash grants but UK EV sales are encouraged by the salary sacrfice tax avoidnce scheme of course. 

EVs is becoming cheaper and cheaper due to economies of scale and tumbling battery prices due to lithium price falls and move to lithium iron phosphate batteries whereas oil prices continue to rise making the case for EVs stronger by the month.

 

Please watch some vdieo that quote facts and not just click baiter's views based on something between nothing and hearsay.   

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Why do you always take things to the very extreme?

"all EV's in car parks enter thermal runaway"

"to solve home charging, flatten all tower blocks, level all terraced houses"

 

Firstly, I have NEVER said that all EVs in car parks enter thermal runaway. It is a rare event, but that rarity will disappear over time as EVs become the normal mode of transport, then there is a real danger of a whole row of EV's becoming involved in a fire if just a single car does suffer a thermal runaway as they burn in completely different fashion with jets of fire shooting at sideways at low level and can set other cars on fire very quickly indeed. There are videos showing this happening already on social media, so it is not something I have plucked out of thin air. Currently, an EV is more likely to parked to next to an ICE car, but that won't be the case for much longer, do you not agree?

 

As to the "to solve home charging, flatten all tower blocks, level all terraced houses", suggest another way that people in these conditions could easily switch and enjoy home charging  to get cheap charging like you quote?

16 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

According to AA, who've forgotten about home EV tariffs, public charging is not keeping pace with residential price drops.

https://www.theaa.com/about-us/newsroom/aa-ev-recharge-report-july-2023

It's similar to petrol prices, goes up quickly but comes down slowly.

 

And this is also part of the problem and it seems to a problem that most folk who bang on about how people need to switch to EV's somehow conveniently seem to completely ignore, which brings the discussion full circle back to the point where I started, HOW do you make it attractive and affordable enough that people in less than ideal living conditions CAN make that switch. I for one would be keen to see how you would solve that issue.

[Ootohere]

@Graham ButcherI am pointing out there are 2nd hand EV,s that are as cheap as the ICE version 

& there are new cars no more expensive than the Petrol or Diesels now.

The Manufacturers are becoming more desperate.

 

But there are transporter loads of new EV,s going on the road because regardless of the Private Buyers / Renters there are Fleet, Hire & Utility companies, local authorities and emergency services getting EV,s and getting them cheap. Motability among them. 

 

Have a wee trip to Scotland and see just how many Green Flash registration plate vehicles there are on the roads and yes sometimes in driveways, but often just parked roadside.

[Ootohere]

How many EV fires have hit the newspapers this week?

 

This thermal runaway stuff is such a load of tosh.    The Diesel electric hybrid ferry did have an overheating battery this week. but then it likely got a WTF is this weather shock.

 

If in Scotland there are any EV fires i will be paying special attention to the news stories because i pretty much read everything there is to in the media.

[lol-lol]

8 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

When slow charging, people don't "waste hours and hours waiting for a full charge".

 

Very good point that ICE drivers fail to comprehend.

 

This is one of the many factors of non-EV people not understand what the new offering of EVs is.   I can stop at an EV charger and do a quick bit of mental maths, something many English people, I have found are quite poor at, and let us not even go to the place of compound interest, that I can calculate with 5 miles or so how many minutes of charge I need to arrive home with 10% or whatever percentage of charge I feel happy with.  The depth of information I can get on my EV's systems are on a far higher level that my ICE cars.

 

Lithium cars, te out going tech, do not charge as fast over 80% and if I am charging at a public rapid charger I would only put in the kWhs I need which probably means cutting the charge off at just over 50% which gives me the range I probably need to get home.  It is great living in the Midlands, other than not seeing the sea very often, as in the UK I rarely need to add anything more than half a battery charge as I can be back home to get the 2p a mile charging cost.

 

EVs are very efficient at slower speeds so crawling on the M25 approaching Heathrow instead of only being say twice as efficient as an ICE car in transforming store power in to motion the gap becomes even larger and even with ICE cars having start/stop few have devices such as heat pumps.  The only plus of an ICE car is that it produces so much waste heat ie more waste energy in the transfer of heat in to the engine cooling water ie more than it does to the vehicle's traction, and in very cold weather one can use that waste heat to warm up the passengers.  Fortunately this matches when lithium power EVs are not at their best so good to have an ICE car in very cold weather.  That said Norway has the highest percentage of EVs probably in the world and is one of the coldest countries in the world.

 

Judging by the popularity of the EV chargers at my local, actually one district over, EV owners without driveway chargers can find chargers at similar prices to home charging.  We have 26 chargers at the Worcester Parkway railway station at 36p per kWh, a dozen a Spetchley Gardens for 42p/per KWh. Well over 100 chargers for a small city such as Worcester and many more being added each year. 

 

When you have an ICE car one is effectively lining the pockets of Putin and the Saudis and other questionable oil suppliers.   

 

[Graham Butcher]

@lol-lol It has been said here before about you making these claims when you are living in a nice leafy street full of individual houses with drives. Have you seen how some people have to live, crammed in to a 2 up and 2 down terrace house with about 10 to 20 houses in a block, often measuring about 20 feet wide if that and that also includes the stairs? Where do they get the ability to home charge? These houses are so old that they probably would need a major uplift in their power supply first, and then they have to pay for that, get permission to install some sort of gantry etc to run the power from the house to the car etc. For you, it is easy, for many it is a nightmare. Others have to live in a 1 or 2-bedroom flats in a block that may be 20 storeys high etc?

 

This salary sacrfice tax avoidnce scheme is not applicable to all people who want or need a car, so once again you seem to be making the same mistake as many do, failing to step outside your comfort circle and seeing the problem from the other person's view point. I for instance could not take advantage of the salary sacrfice tax avoidnce scheme as I don't have a salary, only the state pension. 

 

I really don't understand why it is proving so hard for intelligent people not to understand that we don't all live in the same fashion or enjoy the same standards of living or incomes, what does it take to make people realise that some are more privileged than others so taking a single humongous wide brush approach does not solve the problem. Nor does the constant use of home charging figures being banded about help, it is a kin to many people as quoting how many zeros you have on your bank balances, likewise how many cars you have in your family, all that shows is that are far better off than most people can ever aspire to be, very helpful indeed. 🙄

[wyx087]

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

As to the "to solve home charging, flatten all tower blocks, level all terraced houses", suggest another way that people in these conditions could easily switch and enjoy home charging  to get cheap charging like you quote?

I did, see second post of this page. 

Again, this demonstrates lack of flexibility in your thinking. Just as thinking need to wait hours for cars to recharge. 😂 
 

22 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

And this is also part of the problem and it seems to a problem that most folk who bang on about how people need to switch to EV's somehow conveniently seem to completely ignore, which brings the discussion full circle back to the point where I started, HOW do you make it attractive and affordable enough that people in less than ideal living conditions CAN make that switch. I for one would be keen to see how you would solve that issue.

Did you look at the link? 
EV ownership via public slow charging, even charging at peak period, is still cheaper than petrol.  
If you want to exclusively use rapid charging, some of Tesla network is open to public, with a monthly subscription, their off-peak is cheaper than public slow charging and their price decrease is even faster than domestic tariffs. 
 

As to how to solve convenience factor…… Blanket install smart slow charger for as much existing parking space as possible is the solution. Road side, any and all car park. Anywhere over 4 hours of typical dwell time is perfect for slow charging. 

[wyx087]

4 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

These houses are so old that they probably would need a major uplift in their power supply first, and then they have to pay for that

Not correct, it is usually free from DNO 

https://www.chargedev.co.uk/at-home/domestic-installation-process/main-fuse-upgrade/

Please stop with your wrong worst case assumptions. 

[Graham Butcher]

7 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I did, see second post of this page. 

Again, this demonstrates lack of flexibility in your thinking. Just as thinking need to wait hours for cars to recharge. 😂 
 

Did you look at the link? 
EV ownership via public slow charging, even charging at peak period, is still cheaper than petrol.  
If you want to exclusively use rapid charging, some of Tesla network is open to public, with a monthly subscription, their off-peak is cheaper than public slow charging and their price decrease is even faster than domestic tariffs. 
 

As to how to solve convenience factor…… Blanket install smart slow charger for as much existing parking space as possible is the solution. Road side, any and all car park. Anywhere over 4 hours of typical dwell time is perfect for slow charging. 

Did you read what you wrote? quote   Just as thinking need to wait hours for cars to recharge. 😂 Then as your closing sentence, you said Anywhere over 4 hours of typical dwell time is perfect for slow charging.  So you do agree that slow charging, which is what you implied, was good enough for people, does indeed involve waiting hours for the car to recharge. 🤣🤣🤣

 

 

[Ootohere]

I wait, with the car.

 

People are not WAITING near me.  Their car is charging, they are working, shopping, visiting, today the kids are at a dance event, they plugged in PHEV,s and EV,s

 

THEY GO HOME, they check the App, see if the car is charged and go back.

They are driven back to where the plugged in the car and bogged off leaving others maybe needing a charger.

That is not just a Fast Charger, greedy barstewards plug in and charge and lock in and drive away and might or might come back that day.

This is where no Time Limit, or tariff, or they set the timer to not charge too long, but still hog the bay and charger and get no penalty because no wardens.

 

The Hospital Car park has NHS cars plugged in ready, fully charged for tomorrow, others sitting in parking bays.

As does Social work, Planning, Roads, Printing and other council cars.

 

There are people off walking.  Some plug in just because, because there is a charger.  If you never use half or even a quarter of the range you do not need to plug in for an hour for 7 kWh, or less on a 11 kW or onto a 22 kW charger when you get only 7 or 11 onboard charging.

 

Yes people have to pay attention if the car is charging still and will have the energy in for the journey they are doing, 

but nobody except me and a few others that are charging addicts are at charging hubs waiting on Fast chargers.

 

@Graham Butcher

Later when cooler & maybe once the rain passes i will go charge for an hour for free.

Charge 2 phones, and a chrome book and post on here and save my self £3.  

Spend it at Tesco on the way home, maybe have 4 kWh from them for free.

 

Well from some of your taxes maybe.    I will take a picture of the cars charging with nobody around waiting on them.

 

Edited 10 September, 2023 by toot

[Graham Butcher]

11 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Not correct, it is usually free from DNO 

https://www.chargedev.co.uk/at-home/domestic-installation-process/main-fuse-upgrade/

Please stop with your wrong worst case assumptions. 

I can tell you that it needs to be looked at from that angle and as for getting supplies updated etc, that is not as straight forward as you might think it is. 

I live in a HA house, a few years the HA asked tenants to consider having solar arrays installed on their homes, I did, at the beginning of July 2022 they stopped working, and I have been battling ever since trying to get them repaired. The chaotic system we have now since the privatisation of much of our infrastructure means that nobody but nobody can agree on who does what any more. The solar panel maintenance company has been out on 4 occasions to supposedly fix the problem, but always have some reason why they cannot fix the problem. The last excuse has been that they need the supply fuse pulled in order to renew some of the wiring and also to replace the inverter.

 

The solar company claims that cannot pull the fuse, it has to be the DNO. The DNO says, nope sorry that has to be done by the actual supplier of the power to me, that is OVO. So OVO were asked to do this for the solar company and OVO say no sorry that is not something that we do now what??

 

Back to the HA who said that they will ask their electrical contractor about installing an isolator between the meter and the consumer unit to allow the solar company to turn the power off while they do their work. Still nothing has happened, why I'm still trying to get answers. I'm fully expecting it to become a cyclic problem, with everyone kicking the can further down the road all the time.

 

Years ago before all this privatisation came in to play, it was a simple process, the contractor would pull the fuse, do whatever they had to do to cure the problem and then inform the DNO and they would then get someone out when they were next in the area to apply a new seal to the fuse carrier.

 

I don't think anybody would deny that I have been extremely patient in while this has been going, 14 months and still no free electricity from my solar array.

 

My takeaway from all of this, including the whole EV situation, is that talking is both cheap and easy to do, but the doing is the costly and hard part that nobody really seems willing to do. If there is anything that makes it a little awkward to do, then it doesn't happen, despite what the various authorities say, the can gets kicked further down the road, sorry but that is a fact.

[Graham Butcher]

36 minutes ago, toot said:

I wait, with the car.

 

People are not WAITING near me.  Their car is charging, they are working, shopping, visiting, today the kids are at a dance event, they plugged in PHEV,s and EV,s

 

THEY GO HOME, they check the App, see if the car is charged and go back.

They are driven back to where the plugged in the car and bogged off leaving others maybe needing a charger.

That is not just a Fast Charger, greedy barstewards plug in and charge and lock in and drive away and might or might come back that day.

This is where no Time Limit, or tariff, or they set the timer to not charge too long, but still hog the bay and charger and get no penalty because no wardens.

 

The Hospital Car park has NHS cars plugged in ready, fully charged for tomorrow, others sitting in parking bays.

As does Social work, Planning, Roads, Printing and other council cars.

 

There are people off walking.  Some plug in just because, because there is a charger.  If you never use half or even a quarter of the range you do not need to plug in for an hour for 7 kWh, or less on a 11 kW or onto a 22 kW charger when you get only 7 or 11 onboard charging.

 

Yes people have to pay attention if the car is charging still and will have the energy in for the journey they are doing, 

but nobody except me and a few others that are charging addicts are at charging hubs waiting on Fast chargers.

Yes people are greedy barstewards and inconsiderate, but you are there waiting for your car to charge, why is that? Is it because you need to charge for work the next day, and it is not easy to leave the car, go home and then have to remember to come out again later that night to collect your car before going to bed? That is what some driver/owners would have to do if they can't charge at home. For many that charge would be vital as they have to commute distances to work each day, or are sales reps etc, or people who have out very early in the morning while others are still sleeping as they have to set things up for the rest of society, such those involved in public transport, health etc.

 

These are real life scenes that many are NOT understanding, all I'm asking / saying these need to be understood, but instead, with many people it comes across I don't care about anyone else "I'm alright jack" and that can be seen by those people you describe as being "greedy barstewards" They have got their car on a public charger and "pee'd" off blocking anyone else from making use of the chargers.

Edited 10 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

51 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol It has been said here before about you making these claims when you are living in a nice leafy street full of individual houses with drives. Have you seen how some people have to live, crammed in to a 2 up and 2 down terrace house with about 10 to 20 houses in a block, often measuring about 20 feet wide if that and that also includes the stairs? Where do they get the ability to home charge? These houses are so old that they probably would need a major uplift in their power supply first, and then they have to pay for that, get permission to install some sort of gantry etc to run the power from the house to the car etc. For you, it is easy, for many it is a nightmare. Others have to live in a 1 or 2-bedroom flats in a block that may be 20 storeys high etc?

 

This salary sacrfice tax avoidnce scheme is not applicable to all people who want or need a car, so once again you seem to be making the same mistake as many do, failing to step outside your comfort circle and seeing the problem from the other person's view point. I for instance could not take advantage of the salary sacrfice tax avoidnce scheme as I don't have a salary, only the state pension. 

 

I really don't understand why it is proving so hard for intelligent people not to understand that we don't all live in the same fashion or enjoy the same standards of living or incomes, what does it take to make people realise that some are more privileged than others so taking a single humongous wide brush approach does not solve the problem. Nor does the constant use of home charging figures being banded about help, it is a kin to many people as quoting how many zeros you have on your bank balances, likewise how many cars you have in your family, all that shows is that are far better off than most people can ever aspire to be, very helpful indeed. 🙄

 

Worcester is/was a cheap place to buy.  1997, after the house value collapse of the early and mid nineties, which we are seeing again of course.  4 bedroom detached with single garage, £93k.  Yes now worth 4 times that but I go to my colleagues house in London, worth well over twice my house but a Victorian/Edwardian house and therefore no drive or easy charging option in those streets so one has to adopt the options I describe about or do the dedicated post or street light incorporation of chargers, even 3.6 kWs like I have on my drive.  The options increasingly available is to pop to the numerous public chepaish AC charging places and those who do need to drive stop thinking of reasons not to convert to EVs whilst tens of thousands suffer from poor air quality.

 

Salary sacrifice is the premier UK government scheme currently, not my choice to assist UK EV roll out.  I benefited a couple of years ago from the EV and charger installation financial assistance but they disappeared well over a year ago and now EVs are so much cheaper the EV grant is no longer needed.  I gather some people can get grants, not those with home owners with drives but many other groups.  Again not a problem, I have the charge point fitted on my house and it increases the value of my house, in part thanks to the £500 grant subsidy. 

 

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