must admit I’ve thought… just grab a diesel.

 

diesel is most dense fuel, energy per whatever.

 

I don’t do short trips <20mins. I don’t go into ulez that often if ever, and 600 a month gets a lot of fuel and ulez… we’ll not that much fuel…

 

there are loads of diesels on the market.

 

8years from now bev will have worked, or it will of failed.

 

idk. I really want to do electric. And if I didn’t have the long drive/random mileage (pcp/lease blocker) I’d of done it by now I think. Because I could home charge, that seems to be the pivot point.

 

might just grab a second hand leaf, then use swmbo for out of county. Problem is when we go in different directions. 
 

really struggling to commit 40k plus to something with 250+ miles. Or make it 50k. Watching video reviews from less than 12mths ago is confusing. Volvos xc40recharge twin  is at least a ton more per month now.

 

I think there will be a pricing reset. Although the seat guy said never going to happen. Carwow investors may differ, discounts will be back.

I wish i had money to grab a 2nd hand Mii Electric or e-Up as a keeper / future classic. 

But i have not the money, do not need one right now and they are in demand.    Cracking cars.   Sadly the Citigo iV is a bit of a lottery charger wise. 

 

PS

Just checked Autotrader.  Hens teeth there.   A few only VW, SEAT or Skoda advertised.  Holding asking prices, so probably selling prices as well.

People are keeping them if they have them. 

 

The early VW e-Up! is only for those that are OK with the poor range they have. 

Edited 22 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

29 minutes ago, ColinD said:

must admit I’ve thought… just grab a diesel.

 

diesel is most dense fuel, energy per whatever.

 

I don’t do short trips <20mins. I don’t go into ulez that often if ever, and 600 a month gets a lot of fuel and ulez… we’ll not that much fuel…

 

there are loads of diesels on the market.

 

8years from now bev will have worked, or it will of failed.

 

idk. I really want to do electric. And if I didn’t have the long drive/random mileage (pcp/lease blocker) I’d of done it by now I think. Because I could home charge, that seems to be the pivot point.

 

might just grab a second hand leaf, then use swmbo for out of county. Problem is when we go in different directions. 
 

really struggling to commit 40k plus to something with 250+ miles. Or make it 50k. Watching video reviews from less than 12mths ago is confusing. Volvos xc40recharge twin  is at least a ton more per month now.

 

I think there will be a pricing reset. Although the seat guy said never going to happen. Carwow investors may differ, discounts will be back.

 

 

£600 is 300L of derv or approximately 3000 miles assuming a very poor 10MPL/45MPG.

If you go up to a more realistic 12MPL/approx 54MPG then you're at 3600 miles per month before you have paid just the cost of leasing an EV.

By the time you add in say 10 charges of 50kWh@60p per kWH then it's another £300 (for 1500 miles assuming 3 miles/kWh ) or if it's only 5 public rapid charges then £150 (for 750 miles). Obviously you have cheaper home charging, but if you use the range you are getting hit on time, availability of chargers and cost.

 

That spend is another 75-150L of derv @£2/l,  which is another 750-1800 miles depending on what MPG you get and if EV what public charging you do.

 

Like you I really want an electric, to the point I have one on order, however with the lack of infrastructure to charge an EV away from home, then actually it gets really hard to justify throwing that much money per month at one. I can actually see why people go on about hydrogen, because in theory it's a drop in replacement for peoples current habits and time. Of course the infrastructure for that is beyond useless anhd it's not as efficient.

 

It's quite sad, because the cars cost the earth, the infrastructure is terrible, hybrids are a big con and even the economics don't actually stack up vs a diesel with fuel prices at this very high level. I mean even if you put £400 lease on a new diesel, then you're looking at a minimum of £250 extra for an EV every month, which is still 125L/1250 miles.

 

 

 

I just had a look at the price of BMW i3 range extenders.

Loads of money for even 2013 cars but they make lots of sense and any owner with one i have spoken with loved them.

 

There are some out there that have done lots of miles so not just cars bought as a status symbol, actually driven.

Edited 22 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

I think the i3 RE is one of the few hybrids that got it more right than most in terms of how to use the engine.

The engine as a generator model could even use an LPG/CNG generator to recharge the battery, which would have the bonus of being cleaner at point of use in terms of particulate matter etc.

14 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

 

 

£600 is 300L of derv or approximately 3000 miles assuming a very poor 10MPL/45MPG.

If you go up to a more realistic 12MPL/approx 54MPG then you're at 3600 miles per month before you have paid just the cost of leasing an EV.

By the time you add in say 10 charges of 50kWh@60p per kWH then it's another £300 (for 1500 miles assuming 3 miles/kWh ) or if it's only 5 public rapid charges then £150 (for 750 miles). Obviously you have cheaper home charging, but if you use the range you are getting hit on time, availability of chargers and cost.

 

That spend is another 75-150L of derv @£2/l,  which is another 750-1800 miles depending on what MPG you get and if EV what public charging you do.

 

Like you I really want an electric, to the point I have one on order, however with the lack of infrastructure to charge an EV away from home, then actually it gets really hard to justify throwing that much money per month at one. I can actually see why people go on about hydrogen, because in theory it's a drop in replacement for peoples current habits and time. Of course the infrastructure for that is beyond useless anhd it's not as efficient.

 

It's quite sad, because the cars cost the earth, the infrastructure is terrible, hybrids are a big con and even the economics don't actually stack up vs a diesel with fuel prices at this very high level. I mean even if you put £400 lease on a new diesel, then you're looking at a minimum of £250 extra for an EV every month, which is still 125L/1250 miles.

 

 

 

Solid maths there.

 

Model 3 was at £500 lease at beginning of the year when I briefly considered this route. But now it has shot up to beyond £600, probably £700 now after Tesla put up their price recently. But MG 5 EV or similar should be possible now for not much more than a comparable ICE car. As long as you can charge at home, even with today's leccy prices, EV will still be cheaper to run.

 

Unfortunately no second hand car make sense now, definitely not second hand EV's due to high demand. Cheap second hand EV's used to make sense back in 2017 when they were seen as useless...... 2018-2020 were public opinion turning points, I watched my Nissan Leaf depreciated far slower than my Skoda Octavia.

 

The infrastructure problem is all down to whether you are willing to be an early adopter. Willing to live with occasional inconveniences until the infrastructure catches up.

 

I have always been early adopters in technology and I enjoy the charging experience. I loath petrol station experience and hates the way an average family ICE car drives. So I'm finding it easy to go full electric.

 

 

 

i3 REx is the way PHEV should be done. I've gone on this rant previously, Parallel PHEV today still puts the ICE on a pedestal and you are still relying on the "holy" ICE for maximum acceleration. Parallel PHEV is essentially ICE manufacturers (like Ford, Toyota) last attempt at prolonging the ICE legacy. It's like having an annoying finger-wagging gnome in the engine bay say "no, no, no. for maximum power you must use ICE."

 

But question, if i3 REx were plugged in at destination charger, would it make you feel better than PHEV's?

One i3 REx driver peed me off regularly as he parked at the only 50 kW charger within 15 miles every time he was in town regardless of if he needed to and headed off for however long and left the car there even when the charging was done.

We chatted fine a few times about his trips his miles etc and i had even come off charging to let him on when he arrived and i was almost done.

 

Then i sussed he was at it and i just began making him wait and ignoring him. 

 

Lots have no idea when they see a BMW i3 parked charging just what flavour they are. 

53 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

Solid maths there.

 

Model 3 was at £500 lease at beginning of the year when I briefly considered this route. But now it has shot up to beyond £600, probably £700 now after Tesla put up their price recently. But MG 5 EV or similar should be possible now for not much more than a comparable ICE car. As long as you can charge at home, even with today's leccy prices, EV will still be cheaper to run.

 

Unfortunately no second hand car make sense now, definitely not second hand EV's due to high demand. Cheap second hand EV's used to make sense back in 2017 when they were seen as useless...... 2018-2020 were public opinion turning points, I watched my Nissan Leaf depreciated far slower than my Skoda Octavia.

 

The infrastructure problem is all down to whether you are willing to be an early adopter. Willing to live with occasional inconveniences until the infrastructure catches up.

 

I have always been early adopters in technology and I enjoy the charging experience. I loath petrol station experience and hates the way an average family ICE car drives. So I'm finding it easy to go full electric.

 

Yes, I do hear you.... but then you could just pick up a cheaper ICE car also, such as a focus/fiesta or even some of the MG models.

Fundamentally more than 8 years in to the great experiment the infrastructure is still way way behind where it needs to be.

 

Why should a company and company car driver save on BIK and other taxes if both have not invested in charging infrastructure?

If you don't have a charger but are claiming relief on taxes, then sorry but you keep paying them (Maybe at a lower rate) with that money invested in public charging.

 

53 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

i3 REx is the way PHEV should be done. I've gone on this rant previously, Parallel PHEV today still puts the ICE on a pedestal and you are still relying on the "holy" ICE for maximum acceleration. Parallel PHEV is essentially ICE manufacturers (like Ford, Toyota) last attempt at prolonging the ICE legacy. It's like having an annoying finger-wagging gnome in the engine bay say "no, no, no. for maximum power you must use ICE."

 

But question, if i3 REx were plugged in at destination charger, would it make you feel better than PHEV's?

 

To be honest, if the infrastructure was there, such that there were any Plugin Electric bays at 7kW and 22+ was reserved for full BEV i'd be ok as they're a battery car with a 40kWh battery.

 

It sadly comes down to there needing to be a big hit for idle charging when there are small number of chargers in dedicated bays.

In the nordics my understanding is that there used to be (or maybe still is), a lot of power connectors in public car parks for pre-heating in the winter. If such a system could deliver 10-16A and was on most bays, then that would be ideal for the hybrids.

 

 

Rant.

Common thing, a single Rapid / 50 kW charger and a vehicle now parked over an hour and not charging and the plug head is locked in.

Not that i could get plugged in anyway because of position of my charge port.

 

There are Parking Wardens that were ticketing cars in the bays even when tickets for the car park were suspended during covid and the charger cut out on you.

 

This is not a free charger, it is 23 pence a kWh.  Not seen any cars ticket yet, but i see this car in the bay not charging regularly.

Edited 2 September, 20223 yr by roottoot

@roottoot No doubt the issue of hogging a charger will only get worse as adoption rate of electric cars increases.  Fast forward a few years and tickets might get issued (the car park owners will want to replace their lost income)

I think some sort of per-minute pricing need to be introduced for rapid chargers. This is what was suggested on speakEV:

• per kWh normally up until speed drops below a kW value, I think 7 is reasonable.
• from then on, a per-minute surcharge is applied until the car has been disconnected
• Have AC chargers available nearby for people want to slowly charge the last bit

Tesla does similar at busy locations. They auto applies 80% charge limit and notifies via mobile notification. When charging stops, you get billed for every minute car has not been moved.

 

 

I also dislike people who don't centre their wheels......

Yesterday a driver came off a charger and let me on. 

He had to wait for near an hour before he got a charge because the driver before him wanted the Tesla to 99.999% of a charge.

I know who that was and they have a home charger but like to take a 15 mile drive to get some shopping and a walk about and a free charge. 

32 minutes ago, roottoot said:

Yesterday a driver came off a charger and let me on. 

He had to wait for near an hour before he got a charge because the driver before him wanted the Tesla to 99.999% of a charge.

I know who that was and they have a home charger but like to take a 15 mile drive to get some shopping and a walk about and a free charge. 

This just show that people are greedy and free charging doesn't really work.

 

My workplace podpoint chargers communication broke. The chargers became free super busy. Now it's been fixed, I can usually get a charge without needing to ask people to move their cars.

Edinburgh Airport Park & Ride.  Real World.

3 out of 6 Rapids were not working. 

30 Mins max charging time & i got this in 30 mins this time. 

 

Had plenty time to wait for a plane to arrive so was going onto a 7 kW charger to charge cheaper but tried 3 different ones and they would not work. 

4th one did and then cut out.

They are 25 pence a kWh compared to 30 pence on the 22 kW charger & 35 pence on the 50 kW DS. 

 

Imagine you have parked and ride and expect your car to be charged on return. The 7 kW chargers have a max 12 hours charging time.

I think people are learning this is not such a good idea here. 

I ended up charging back on a Rapid while it was available & paying the 35 pence a kWh.

 

Cars blocking a charging bay hardly matters considering the end bay is Out of Order and the one at the other end not Shut down for good. 

Those painting the lines doing the last bay wrong does not help. 

 

Edited 7 September, 20223 yr by roottoot

I did my usual return trip of 320 miles in an efficient diesel instead of my EV.

 

115ps 2.0 TDI 7 speed DSG 21 plate Golf.   I enjoyed it very much. Missed heated seat and steering wheel and physical buttons.

 

80 miles of 60 MPH limit roads getting 70 mpg average plus displayed & 240 miles motorway getting 60 + mpg displayed.

I used 23 litres brim to brim.    5 gallons,   so an average 64 mpg..   177.9 pence a litre. 

 ****cost £41. ****

 

Usually with just paying for a 30 minute charge at Edinburgh airport it cost me about £7. 

Other charges are free, before i head off, then  first charge after 65 miles then after 90 miles then the Edinburgh charge after 99 miles home. Then free charging gets done.

That is lots of charging time on sometimes hopelessly slow chargers.

 

But if i was paying 35 pence a kWh and getting 3.1 miles per kWh which i would in this weather that would be 103 kWh so

****£36.13.****  At least 90 mins charge time needed, often much more.

 

@ 50 pence a kWh then £51.50.

69 pence a kWh then £71.07

£1 a kWh £103.  That would be crazy. 

 

Average speed showing is odd as @ NSL's with only a few miles in total through 30 mph villages.

 

Yesterday when showing 80 mpg plus for about 10 miles after filling up the range was showing 620 miles.

 

Edited 1 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

Correct me if I’m wrong but you appear to be saying that the trip in the diesel was only approx. £5 more than it would be in your EV

However you had to waste 90 minutes charging up.

 

As someone who regularly drives 200 - 250 miles on multi drop deliveries I’ll happily pay £5 a trip to get home early.

 

@BJMOnly in my EV or anyone's where it requires paying for public charging. Not something i have had to do or will do if i an avoid, which mostly i can.

 

My comparison was the £7 i usually pay @ Edinburgh Airport for this Journey and the £41. That is £34 difference.

The rest is what the 320 miles would cost at the different charging costs of 35 pence and more a kWh.

Some might do their trips, business or other on cheap home or work tariffs electric. 

 

I have done 35,000 miles in 26 months in EV's for under £150 of paying for electric & CPS cards. (Charge Place Scotland) 

I allow an extra 60 minutes for 150 miles of a trip which can be as much as 450 miles once or twice a week.

So charging time is not the issue when i have all the time in the world.  When charging is a crap experience of waiting to get charging it is still 'much cheapness'.

 

It is nice though sometimes to do 150 miles in 3 hours or so, then another 150 without waiting about. 

 

PS

In my Diesel 4x4 Van i get 26 mpg.

  The 320 miles would require 12 gallons rather than 5 as with the Golf i was driving.  

Even with that poor MPG it would come out costing less and getting home sooner, most likely in winter than an EV charging at £1 a kWh & maybe getting less than 3 miles a kWh. 

Edited 1 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

So your next car, going back to diesels or sticking with EV's?

 

10 hours ago, BJM said:

As someone who regularly drives 200 - 250 miles on multi drop deliveries I’ll happily pay £5 a trip to get home early.

Get an EV that can do 250 miles in any weather, eg 300 miles rated range. If you charge at home, running cost would be vastly cheaper.

 

Eg. I drove 90 miles today, used just over 30% battery. 35% needs exactly 4 hours to charge. On Octopus Go at 7.5p/kWh for off-peak 4 hours, 35% would cost £2.10. As long as your average daily mileage is less than ~100 miles, you can plug in everyday and gradually build up your range with 4 hours cheap electricity after a long day's driving.

If you drive that distance every day, a long range EV will still work but savings wouldn't be as much. As always, to get maximum saving, you need a driveway and switch to EV focused tariff like Octopus Go.

@wyx087I will stick with the Corsa until next August & even extend the lease while waiting on whatever as i really like the car,

and hopefully on Motability there will be an affordable advance payment People Carrier / Estate that can carry bikes in the back and be good for an easy 200 miles even in winter. Then i will go for one of those.

(I am interested to see what changes the Corsa comes back with as some have reported better efficiency after the software update, some have reported their car has been ruined.)

 

Whatever i have from new now i not only needs to be comfortable for long journeys but also with simple controls and not any stupid touch buttons or sliders that are not lit up in the dark, 

or require reading glasses on to be able to see to use or stuff on the screen so small that i can not see. 

I hated an ID.3 when i tried and a Born was so so.  The Golf's mis-mash is unreal. There are some quick use buttons for de-mist, rear screen, autolights etc.

But the heater, face, screen feet are just not that quick to get to.

The steering wheel buttons are all there, far too many, far too small and require looking at as not as user friendly like a toggle or scroll wheel. 

 

I will never have a new vehicle again without Matrix headlights. 

 

PS.

For driving flooded roads i will always want to be in an EV. 

 

Edited 2 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

Real world in Scotland for me is the luck of the draw getting on an available charger free or even  pay to charge at busy places lots of the time.  Fast chargers often available, but getting into them and getting in and out the car and getting plugged in can be the issue, same as at dual chargers with a rapid and a fast fixed cable.    Today at Perth Park and ride one rapid out of order as always, the 3 others occupied with cars charging till full and all fast chargers occupied.   Then up the hill the 12 Tesla Superchargers there with 1 Tesla charging.   The usual for here.  What is unusual is that so many of the CPS chargers are working.    Ps. No sign of any work on the Charger hub extension that was to be built from money that already came from the EU years back. 

 

Edited 15 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

Why is there a Tesla charging and using up non-Tesla rapid chargers when there's so many supercharger available?

Because TESLA Drivers without free Tesla Supercharging will not pay when they can charge free @ CPS chargers.

 Neither would i if i had a TESLA. 

What is annoying is how long they will leave them on a Rapid but that is not only TESLAS doing that.   No time limit..

 

There will be money to pay to charge at CPS Chargers in Perth & Kinross from the Jan 2023, but that will still be cheaper than the Super Chargers. 

 

 

Edited 15 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

South west Scotland crap charging with CPS chargers. Often a single rapid out of order and just a couple of fast chargers that might or might no to work and if one is working they might be occupied by a BEV or PHEV for hours.  Free is nice.  No time limit is not, and unreliable free is hopeless.  No commercial chargers any place near major routes in the SW Scotland just not on. 

Edited 18 October, 20223 yr by roottoot

I had nearly forgotten how good the range on ICE cars can be and how the range game can be fun in an efficient ICE car.  With temperatures plummeting the amount of range I see on the Zoe drops a little bit each morning for the same state of charge. So when the temperature was 15C or above I could see 230 miles range on the Zoe 52 kWh.  Driving it on the motorway, particularly between Worcester and Birmingham, which is about a 500 ft climb, the range has taken a hit at more than one mile of range lost per one mile travelled, particularly in that 100% down to 90% level in the EV as regen does not work fully in that range of state of charge.

 

Do my regular journey to Liverpool yesterday in the Arkana which is powered by the well known 1.333 TCE engine used by Mercedes, Nissan and Renault, linked to the 7 speed EDC gearbox with coasting programmed in which works in ECO mode and non-ECO.  Fill the 50 litre tank up, car came with 20 litres from the dealer and I put in another 30 litres.   Predicted range on the car is a rather staggeringly low 430 miles, still 200 more than the Zoe would show at best and 230 more than on a cool autumn morn with the temp at around 6C.  Set off from Worcester heading North, thinking about the days of running in cars which was not mentioned by the dealer and I do think was mentioned in the last decade or two with the new cars I have owned.  50 litres is about 11 gallons so car is predicting about 40 mpg I suppose.  Climb the several hills up to Brum, pass the Hawthorns WBAFC ground at it 551 feet above sea level after starting in Worcester at about 75 feet above sea level and range is still 430 miles even after having done 25 to 30 miles.  The join the M6, lots of traffic but at least very little 50 mph as there has been but keeping the car at around 60/65 mph as no big rush to get to Liverpool and setting a few thinks as I cruise along ie music settings, balance of speakers, bass, treble etc. 115 miles later arrive at city limits of Liverpool, range now showing 450 miles and instruments showing 56 mpg.   Indicated range is close to the 600 miles, miles travelled plus range shown with 7/8s of a tank showing, I have been expecting.  "Coasting function is weird, even more so than the 7 speed DSG I had in Octy, ie engine shows no revs at all but I suppose the mild hybrid system is providing power to powering steering etc.

 

So ICE car was great, EV would have been a pain, even if I had got the new Megane-e I test rode, probably would not have made the 250 mile round trip without severe range anxiety.  EV I charge at home for around £4 to give me the 200 miles range.  Arkana I use by company fuel card to fill with petrol and the tax on that would be £16 so both very cheap, I pay more for the parking in Liverpool.  Employer seems to be reluctant to supply an EV charge card compared to no problem with an ICE fuel card.   Certain things must change if the initial spurt of move from ICE to EV is to continue.  Salary sacrifice scheme for EV need rolling out to make EVs appear better value to business car users.   EV cars need to get better 350 plus miles of range, in the winter, much better motorway charging for non-Teslas, Gridserve getting there but oh so slowly.  Pricing of EV charging at home and on the road it increasingly massively ie trebled in about a year. After April 2023 ie end of home energy subsidy could be interesting ie 20p per kWh even on night time tariff, 50p-60p on day time tariff except for lagging energy deals still in place.   Cannot se myself going all EV until I retire in about 4 years time when hopefully the above will be a reality and not just a pipe dream.

 

Edited 19 October, 20223 yr by lol-lol

I don't believe need 350 miles winter range EV, it's the charging network that needs to improve. If you were able to slow charge while parked and have zero problem rapid charging at any trunk road rest stop, then you wouldn't need to think about range. 

 

Agree with everything else. Though I hope night time tariff will not be too high. The most expensive commodity is natural gas, that's only really used in anger peak of peak time 4-7pm. There should always be much cheaper off-peak times. 

 

 

For personal news, I'm getting Indra V2H installed for my Nissan Leaf :D. I got past the first filter for the trial, awaiting technical survey to be done. This means I'll get equivalent to ~18kWh home battery and I'll aim to time-shift ALL usage to cheap periods or solar. 

Combined with Tesla for me to qualify for 10p/kWh Octopus Intelligent tariff. 

 

The truth about 8 years old EV's: they are still very relevant.