2 hours ago, nta16 said:

I have read that there is a minimum delivery of 2 litres for the pump to be accurate with its delivery.  As nearly all the fuel sold here is by large supermarket or oil  brands I am sure that while there may be mistakes and some inaccuracies in measurements generally they would not be on purpose

The minimum delivery statement is correct, because that's the minimum amount the pump electro-mechanics can deliver accurately.

 

The pumps are calibrated using a calibrated 25l container.

Rack Rate Fluctuations

At 60 degrees Fahrenheit, the fuel’s volume stays constant. Here’s what happens if it’s hot or cold outside.

If it’s warm outside and over 60 degrees when the fuel is delivered, it will have expanded because of the heat. After the fuel cools down to normal, the volume will shrink.

If it’s cold outside and less than 60 degrees when the fuel is delivered, after the fuel is pumped into a temperature-controlled tank and warms to normal, the fuel will expand.

Some Examples of Expansion and Contraction

In a location where temperatures are constant and don’t vary – like Southern California or Hawaii, if you ordered a 5,000-gallon of gas, you’d know that’s what you’d received – 5,000 gallons of gas once it was delivered into your tank. You’d receive precisely what you paid for.

But if you lived in South Dakota and received delivery on an extraordinarily frigid day, you’ll actually receive more gas. Here’s why – once the fuel is put into your temperature-controlled tank it will warm and expand.

 

https://www.ricochetfuel.com/blog/the-facts-about-fuel-expansion-and-contraction/

 

An example of simple and understandable text for a simple driver.

 

 

Yes but that tanker delivery to petrol station tank which is underground and remains at a fairly stable temperature.  The distance and speed of delivery from that stable temperature underground tank to your cars' tank there isn't going to be a great deal of change.  Once in your tank it might be a different matter, as I've filled beyond the tank and to back of cap (no liquid or fumes returns to my tank) I can assure you even after driving a distance if the car is left parked on warm day and/or lots of solar gain liquid petrol can be wasted to ground.

 

IIRC the energy of the fuel remains despite its volume change after the pump register, minus spillage I would expect.

 

If you go to petrol company website or contact them I would have thought they have prepared explanations for such questions or be able to give them  Bear in mind anything to do with chemicals and physics can get complex and on to very complicated, the very start is beyond me.

 

9 hours ago, nta16 said:

Bear in mind anything to do with chemicals and physics can get complex and on to very complicated, the very start is beyond me.

 

I am not a Chemist that's why i don't want and i don't have the time to delve into the subject ''fuel''.

 

I wish that the below quote was a rule in the gas stations here, many drivers (due to ignorance) or employees (for reasons that i have explained) don't follow it.

 

Quote

Unfortunately, some people try to get around this by pumping more gas into the tank after the valve shuts. They may even lift the nozzle further out of the filler neck to prevent the venturi valve from doing its job. This, best case scenario, adds a negligible amount of gas while causing a little bit to be sucked back into the nozzle with every clunk and, worst case scenario, causes fuel to spill out of the tank.

Avoid pumping more gas after the valve in the fuel pump nozzle shuts once. The tank is sufficiently full. 

 

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/how-does-my-gas-tank-know-when-it-s-full

 

 

The reason that i have opened this thread is to ask other members if they now for sure that the click of the pump means that are 42 litres in their tank (let's say in ideal conditions) of their Felicia.

I haven't drive a car with trip computer in the past nor in the Army and for my own reasons i pay attention to the fuel consumption especially in city traffic.

TC-6 is all i have so i had to work with it. 

With my old car with open and wide necked filler tube, if I stopped at first click I am not sure if the tank would be even half full, about 13 litres, as I put before the tank capacity is 25.5 litres, I have to hold the nozzle out of the filler neck quite soon after starting filling otherwise the nozzle clicks off or I have to go so slow I would be there for ages.

 

 

1 hour ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

The reason that i have opened this thread is to ask other members if they now for sure that the click of the pump means that are 42 litres in their tank (let's say in ideal conditions) of their Felicia.

Yes I understand that but I am not sure if there are any other Felica owners that view here that know or have the same concern but someone might show up.

 

 

1 hour ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

trip computer

I was thinking of tripometer and pen, paper and calculator for fuel consumption.  I am not sure I would trust a car's own fuel consumption figures, particularly from more recent VWs (includes Skoda of course).

 

😄  "Classic" trip 'computer' (tripometer). -

 

Edited 8 January, 20224 yr by nta16

1 hour ago, nta16 said:

I am not sure if there are any other Felica owners that view here that know or have the same concern but someone might show up

 

This must concers the majority of ''every day'' drivers, no matter if you have a Skoda or a Nissan when the pumps drops then inside in your tank are the 45 or 50 or 60 etc litres that the manual says? Or the manuals says that the 45 or 50 or 60 etc are the limit that the pump can fill your tank before overflue?

The TC-6 rely on the factory floater so is extremely crucial for me to know.

50 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

This must concers the majority of ''every day'' drivers, no matter if you have a Skoda or a Nissan when the pumps drops then inside in your tank are the 45 or 50 or 60 etc litres that the manual says?

No I do not think it does in my experience.  Many/most average car drivers will not know the nominal (or exact) capacity of the tank or look in the Handbook to find out.  They may well know how much fuel they usually need to put in based on where the fuel tank needle is.  Those that normally fill to full will do so and those that usually only put in so much or fill to a certain level on the gauge will know roughly how much they need to do so.

 

In fact many people go by the cost rather than the quantity, at least over here and will say things like "if I put in £20 it should last me until x" or "£20 should get me x-number of miles" without thought to any variations of cost, driving conditions and environments.  Many have absolutely no idea how to work out fuel consumption with any reasonable accuracy and will go on the fuel cost rather than quantity.

 

If you do not believe me try asking a few 'average, ordinary drivers', some will not have the first clue and might even get annoyed or defensive at your question, or just make something up so as not to feel embarrassed, or other side just say they do not know or care.

 

My wife always knows the current cost per litre of petrol locally, I do not, but if I asked what the car's MPG is  (we do not use l/100km)  she would have to  work it out with a tripcounter reading, how many litres to fill the tank and ask me , as always, how many litres to a gallon as she can never remember 4.546 correctly.

Edited 8 January, 20224 yr by nta16

4 hours ago, nta16 said:

If you do not believe me try asking a few 'average, ordinary drivers', some will not have the first clue and might even get annoyed or defensive at your question, or just make something up so as not to feel embarrassed, or other side just say they do not know or care.

 

In Greece till late 80's we had tariff on the price of the fuels which means in all the gas stations no matter the brand the price was ''fixed" so it was very common to ask you by another driver ''how many drachmas burns per kilometre" (''burn'' is the slang of consumption) and it was very easy to say the amount but later came the ''liberal" government and the whole situation turned to chaos.

After almost 30 years and still there are some annoying drivers which ask you the same and when you explain them that this logic doesn't not exist any longer many of them get nervous.

 

I asked the same question here in a local forum:

 

4 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

when the pumps drops then inside in your tank are the 45 or 50 or 60 etc litres that the manual says? Or the manuals says that the 45 or 50 or 60 etc are the limit that the pump can fill your tank before over-flue?

 

One said maybe about 8 litres and the other said he believes till 4 litres (both with Octavia) which means that all these years no one has ever thought deeply this matter.

 

With Mk2 Fabia vRS and the 45 litre tank some of us vented the tank regardless of advice from the manufacturers or anyone else.

We might get 49 litres in from near empty to seeing the petrol in the pipe and then vent and get about 5 litres in.

That was before driving enough to use up the extra fuel before parking up. 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/447650-well-that-was-a-bit-odd-fuel-tank-capacity

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, roottoot said:

some of us vented the tank regardless of advice from the manufacturers or anyone else

 

Some guys do it here also but only when they travel from one city to another which is far away, it's night and they don't know if there is a gas station there etc but the rule is one:

''drive immediately" after such kind of tank fuelling.

In Greece they call it ''tank vent valve", here is an example as a used part, some claim that they saw the gas station employee to press that button but to be honest i never saw any one to do it in my Felicia.

Some guys do patents to increase a little bit the fuel tank capacity or (some Opel owners) to make the fuel run more easily but i would never like to be involved in such matters.

 

Haynes manual says 42 litres but the Skoda manual that i have says ''about 42 litres".

 

 

Update: About the TC-6 measurements.

 

As i have mention in the past the TC-6 screen has Current with L/h symbol, Average with the Ø symbol ant Total with the Σ symbol, in the Current function above the 32 Km/h speed the symbol disappears and shows the fuel consumption but in a fraction of a second this can change, when you release the gas pedal the fuel consumption starts dropping and then you take a photo and make a (fake actually) comment that your Felicia has a very low fuel consumption, is very economical etc.

Here are two examples, in Highway

 

 

and Mountain Route.

 

 

 

Someone who has not a TC-6 or does not know how works can be deceived from these photos but take a look closely, there is No symbol in the LCD screen !

Yes shows a low fuel consumption but this apply only to the specific time that the photo was taken.

 

Another trick: you are in the Highway, the FC indeed is Low for example let's say 6 ltr/ 100Km, you enter in the City and get stuck in traffic, the FC starts rising and when reaches 9 ltr you take a picture claiming that you car in City traffic has that FC so it's very economical etc.

The point is that this measurement will change soon and after some minutes you can't post the same plus the Odometer will discover your lie, you can not have that 9 ltr FC after few kilometres inside the City.

So we must be very suspicious for possible ''magic numbers'' in fuel consumption that can we read in the internet even when these comments accompanied by photographs. 😎

 

 

 

As I often told my wife as the car stopped because I had let the fuel run out, a gauge is just a gauge not "an accurate", ladies being more sensible she then later  insisted the needle was always at least at a certain position or we filled the tank regardless, no debate.  Men (and I dare include myself in that category) often love figures more than real world logic.

 

My wife's present VWSkoda can have the fuel gauge needle sit at full for very many miles, neither of us believe the VW-cheaters gauges (dieselgate :cough:), and her previous GM product car could sometimes take over 100 miles (160km) to move the needle off full, neither of us believe we were doing hundreds of miles per gallon.  If we had a TC-6, TC-6P (or TC-6 anything) we might take it as a very good guide but we'd still use pencil and paper, litres and mileage since last fill and simple maths to work out an average mpg over that consumption to give us an idea of mpg which would have little meaning because of all the variances, but too much consumption might point to an issue of running - too little consumption probably an error in the simple maths.

 

I could take a photo of perhaps the matrix showing 70 mpg or 25, 15(?) mpg means nothing either way really, like the fuel range left in the tank figure, figures with little real meaning.  My wife will always get s more mpg than me (unless I'm on a fuel economy test) .  Best way to save fuel is to walk, cycle or get a lift with someone else.  We all sit in our 5 seater cars as lone drivers looking at others exactly the same going along or in the same queue.  Yes save what you can where you can but just owning one car let alone driving it is very wasteful regardless of mpg figures.  I have the lack of wealth from mpg to say all this.  😄

@nta16 : Here back in the 2T sport motorcycles era there were guys here which brag that their motorcycle burns more fuel than normal (or other guys same model motorcycle) because ''is modified with far more HP".

Those years the gasoline prices were too low and ''fixed'' by government Law and those swaggerer-guys find that way for show-off.

Now that 2 stroke era finished the situation reversed, from few drivers we have comments ''my car is in top condition, i can find any spare part i want, it's very economical" and blah blah and of course only kids and housewives believe them.

Later came the guys with Diesel cars (''i spend far more less fuel than you and i travel much more kilometres than you") and now we have the Electric cars with some drivers trying to convince others that even with the same car have even 30% more distance etc.

 

On the other hand there are drivers (with 1400-1600cc) which admit in public of in auto-forum that their car has high FC in City and of course all with 1800-2000cc don't say anything.

I remember a friend of mine with 30+ experience in every day driving (his own modified cars or company ones) wrote to me:

"most 1.6 in the city with heavy traffic exceed 14 litres (checked with Primera, Focus, Renault). A Skoda Fabia brand new 1.2 company car that I had in 2008-2010 mixed route with 150 km per day of which 20-30 in heavy traffic was NEVER under 9 litres for any reason. If I get a move from (mention a Mountain Route to Athens) leave it....he wrote something desperate 11 litres...on the gas pump station... i.e. even the one... which was "modern" and a three-cylinder with a knowledge of the consumption, if it worked as a taxi (meant hard City traffic) in Athens... the 13 would have had it for sure."

Don't you have other than German or European makes in Greece?  I personally can't imagine a VW engine with three-cylinders as I found the Golf Mk2 (horrible lardy car) 1.6, 4 cylinder engine to be on the rough side but I've had several small cc, 3-cylinder Japanese cars with jewels of engines and one Merc (that VW previously couldn't commit to) with for the time an unusually good Merc product.  Even so I find it strange that your mate didn't get reasonable mpg out of the 1.2, 3-cylinder engine around town but real world figures beat marketing ,sales and manufacturer's own test figures. In 2003 I had a new Suzuki Swift with a 1.0 3-cylinder engine that wasn't as smooth above 70 mph but would get 60mpg on a run.  At the same time I had a 1974 (built just after the fuel 1973 crisis) Rover P6 3.5 V8 (manual) that would be about mid-20s mpg on a run but you don't own a V8 if you are going to worry too much about mpg.

 

ETA: BTW it's illegal to be taking a photo with a phone whilst driving in the UK and "Even using a hands-free option can incur penalties if your driving is deemed to be dangerous" even though many do it, only last week as a pedestrian I saw a young man in a black Golf with dropped seat and a middle-aged man in a new Porsche two-seater, good job I don't own a phone with a camera. - https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rs/road-safety/driving-mobile-device-use

 

Edited 5 February, 20242 yr by nta16

TC-6 works alongside with the factory gas tank floater and as the needle in the dashboard gauge moves a bit up and down (depending on the road) the same way the Total FC (with the Greek Σ symbol) while the car is moving is one click higher than the measurement when the car stops in a level surface.

Not something significant just a very tiny error.

 

We know about the new cameras in UK that can detect a person using his phone while driving, they have shown to us photos of real snapshots as an example.

 

I took some photos as a proof of real FC numbers because i never believed those "fantastic" that i have read, it's not convenient and make me nervous to try to take a good photo while driving but i had to do it.

 

I remember that @Papez said in other topic about the TC-6:

 

Quote

It takes signal directly from the fuel injector and tachometer and it can be calibrated for almost perfect accuracy.

 

I have the TC-6 for about 2 years and i have to disagree with that, not totally but in a specific point.

In Total (with the symbol Σ) and in the remaining kilometres with the gasoline that it's left in the tank (with the symbol > 📳 ) there is a difference of 1 ltr from the reality.

Although there is a calibration function and i have it in the maximum (its +7) but that difference can not be zeroed. Since the TC-6 works together with the factory float i don't know if that 1lt maximum difference is because after switching Off the car when parked the gasoline in the tank isn't immediately ''calm'' or the inclination of the ground (uphill-downhill) cause this.

I will post photos soon as a proof.

14 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

and in the remaining kilometres with the gasoline that it's left in the tank (with the symbol > 📳 ) there is a difference of 1 ltr from the reality.

Although there is a calibration function and i have it in the maximum (its +7)

 

Fuel gauge is calibrated in a different menu. 

As you said, it uses factory float, so it's not very precise.

 

No problem @Papez , i mention this for informational purposes only, due to this ''uncorrection'' someone can show lower fuel consumption numbers (which is not my intention).

 

 

 

237,3 Km when the tank was full.

 

 

 

Here is the current situation, Average %

 

 

 

This is the Total Σ

 

 

 

and for 42 ltr tank this is the remain kilometres, till the new correction the result is 11,1 ltr / 100 Km (or 25.45 British MPG) fuel consumption in hard City Traffic.