Double or triple glazing?

[Gaz]

49 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

I know we're getting this thread slightly off topic...

 

Really this should be in a new thread....apologies to @Gaz...

 

No apology needed whatsoever 

 

I was sitting here quietly, reading with interest, waiting, hoping, for a demonstration..... and that you might bring some pan/dome headed screws with you while you were about it.  No point in coming all that way.... 😁

 

Gaz

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, Gaz said:

 

No apology needed whatsoever 

 

I was sitting here quietly, reading with interest, waiting, hoping, for a demonstration..... and that you might bring some pan/dome headed screws with you while you were about it.  No point in coming all that way.... 😁

 

Gaz

 

I suppose I'll be doing your place on the way to doing @J.R. place in France?!!....🙄........🤷‍♂️.......😂

[J.R.]

Sounds like a plan, can you bring some foam filled UPVC trims with you, oh and some Tetley teabags, not for me but for bargaining currency with the other Brits 🤣

 

Thanks for the reply, I will consult and inwardly digest all the info links, if I have more questions I will start another thread

[Gaz]

On 17/06/2022 at 16:38, Gaz said:

And the gutter brackets, before:

 

 

 

Hmmm 🤨

 

So, to fit the new gutter mounts flush to the fascia, instead of bringing the fascia to vertical so that it lines up with the edge of the wooden beam above, they have cut into said wood, to accommodate the clips.  Pictures explain it better:

 

 

 

 

 

 

And as can be seen in the third photo, the wood has actually gone, where the screws would have been placed.  Which I presume might relate to the fitting that still has both screws in it.

 

Having seen it up close, am I being unfair in thinking this has been botched?  I can't get any closer photo's, so I can't tell the size of this wood, but hacking into it might, to me, suggest that it could reduce the amount of wood available to screw threads? I presume it's right that the fascia should be under this wood and not on/in front of it, tucked under the roof tile? (Not much overhang to speak of).

 

I want to be reasonable, but I'm not particularly feeling it at the moment.

 

Gaz

 

Edited 15 January, 2023 by Gaz
added a photo

[Ootohere]

@Gazmy young lad and his brothers could come do the work for Full Board, but maybe cheaper just to pay a local..

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, toot said:

@Gazmy young lad and his brothers could come do the work for Full Board, but maybe cheaper just to pay a local..

 

 

 

 

D.A. Lawrence cleaning contractors in Edinburgh......

 

No disrespect..Might be IRATA trained, but only Cleaning contractors...needs to know building/roofing/guttering etc. & not needed for @Gaz...needed for @J.R. in France due to the extra height (3 storey) of the building.

 

I did Building Construction at collage & Technical Architecture at Uni...& was IRATA trained (different training to Level1/2/3) to specify/advise & sell rope access gear. Over the years I dealt with Mountain Rescue teams, a couple of Councils, Scottish School of Forestry, numerous independent Arborist firms, Cairngorm Mountain Ltd., some military.... plus I'm from a rock/ice climbing background, & I'm not "stuck in my ways" as many IRATA level3 are, who refuse to move onto new gear/ways of doing things!!

 

3 hours ago, J.R. said:

Sounds like a plan, can you bring some foam filled UPVC trims with you, oh and some Tetley teabags, not for me but for bargaining currency with the other Brits 🤣

 

Thanks for the reply, I will consult and inwardly digest all the info links, if I have more questions I will start another thread

 

hahahaha...

 

Or PM me directly.....Alot of the correct gear is expensive...however knowing the exact work you are likely to use the gear for say in the next 10yrs you can specify certain items which would do it all. There are ways of using cheaper items without compromising on safety, just its more difficult to use some items in certain situations.....You pay more for gear that is a "master of all situations"...but there is still a compromise!

[Ootohere]

@fabdavravThat is not who they work with or for, the 3 of them are Level 3 & Ndt and work world wide offshore when not working for themselves. 

They were roofers / builders when younger. That was how they earned the money to train and go offshore.

Edited 15 January, 2023 by toot

[fabdavrav]

2 hours ago, Gaz said:

 

 

Hmmm 🤨

 

So, to fit the new gutter mounts flush to the fascia, instead of bringing the fascia to vertical so that it lines up with the edge of the wooden beam above, they have cut into said wood, to accommodate the clips.  Pictures explain it better:

 

 

 

 

 

 

And as can be seen in the third photo, the wood has actually gone, where the screws would have been placed.  Which I presume might relate to the fitting that still has both screws in it.

 

Having seen it up close, am I being unfair in thinking this has been botched?  I can't get any closer photo's, so I can't tell the size of this wood, but hacking into it might, to me, suggest that it could reduce the amount of wood available to screw threads? I presume it's right that the fascia should be under this wood and not on/in front of it, tucked under the roof tile? (Not much overhang to speak of).

 

I want to be reasonable, but I'm not particularly feeling it at the moment.

 

Gaz

 

 

In the last photo why is the facia tilted outwards at the bottom & vertical??...Also why does it appear to finish lower down that the facia that is further away from you??

 

Difficult to make out but the wood that is exposed should be the original top batten that the top of the original facia was nailed onto.....why did they not fix the new plastic onto that???

 

The fact that those longscrews, or some of them were into solid wood & yet the whole gutter came off??...something odd they have done there..or bodged...I've done new 1/2 round guttering (same size as yours) into wood facia using two 4.8mmx32mm long stainless pan heads per bracket no problems....survived high winds & snow loads from this winter..so far anyway!...

Edited 15 January, 2023 by fabdavrav

[fabdavrav]

6 minutes ago, toot said:

@fabdavravThat is not who they work with or for, the 3 of them are Level 3 & Ndt and work world wide offshore when not working for themselves. 

They were roofers / builders when younger. That was how they earned the money to train and go offshore.

 

Strange that the photos you used are from the D.A. Lawrence cleaning contractors in Edinburgh website....& has their van in the bottom corner....

Edited 15 January, 2023 by fabdavrav

[Ootohere]

I see that.

2 of them started out working for Smith Services.  But one fell 40 feet. 

Lots of water under their feet since then. 

http://robinson-solutions.blogspot.com/2013/10/window-cleaner-has-no-memory-of-40ft.html

 

Oldest brother.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/497418-the-queensferry-crossing-is-getting-cleaned-and-treatment-tries-to-a-stop-it-from-getting-iced-up-and-dropping-lumps-of-ice-onto-the-carriageway

 

 

Edited 15 January, 2023 by toot

[Gaz]

4 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

In the last photo why is the facia tilted outwards at the bottom & vertical??...Also why does it appear to finish lower down that the facia that is further away from you??

 

Difficult to make out but the wood that is exposed should be the original top batten that the top of the original facia was nailed onto.....why did they not fix the new plastic onto that???

 

I don't know the answer to these questions, but wish I did.  It's kinda what I was asking at the end of my last post.  That the fascia is tilted doesn't make sense to me, and having it nailed to the top batten would surely be far more sensible.

 

There's clear evidence of holes to the left side of what's been cut out.  Undoubtedly where the old gutter mounts were fixed.

 

I'll send photo's to the installer's Installation Manager and ask his thoughts on all this.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Gaz

 

[fabdavrav]

3 minutes ago, Gaz said:

 

I don't know the answer to these questions, but wish I did.  It's kinda what I was asking at the end of my last post.  That the fascia is tilted doesn't make sense to me, and having it nailed to the top batten would surely be far more sensible.

 

There's clear evidence of holes to the left side of what's been cut out.  Undoubtedly where the old gutter mounts were fixed.

 

I'll send photo's to the installer's Installation Manager and ask his thoughts on all this.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Gaz

 

 

 

Its difficult to know exactly 100% whats under the plastic & what was there before...do you have any "before" photos??

[fabdavrav]

24 minutes ago, toot said:

I see that.

2 of them started out working for Smith Services.  But one fell 40 feet. 

Lots of water under their feet since then. 

http://robinson-solutions.blogspot.com/2013/10/window-cleaner-has-no-memory-of-40ft.html

 

 

 

I've been asked many times to to it professionally from the other side of the counter....& yes I'd earn shed loads of money....you are paid shed loads of money as its "danger money" so many corners are cut in all the industries. The fact that both his ropes failed is indicative of either bad anchors or bad inspection routines & in that article admits  “The ropes we had had been in use for a long time and I think they were due to be replaced soon, but I had no reason to think they would fail.” The Health and Safety Executive is investigating the incident."....

 

I've had to inspect many peoples gear over time & what people "think" is ok to use & "only a minor bit of wear" is shocking!....Whether its them or them being told by higher up people its ok, "can't afford to replace it use the old stuff"......Sorry but my life is worth far more than that...thats why I don't do it (work for others) & why I've had stand up arguments with some companies & Level3's when advising & refused to sell to them...

Edited 15 January, 2023 by fabdavrav

[Ootohere]

Carpet Tiles used to protect edges maybe!

 

He was warned. But survived and learned and went on a thrived, as did my young lad. 

The work ethic never came from me. 

Edited 15 January, 2023 by toot

[Gaz]

3 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

Its difficult to know exactly 100% whats under the plastic & what was there before...do you have any "before" photos??

 

Not really what we're looking for, but in terms of the fascia that was there before, it can be seen to be vertical here, not tipping back at the top - looking at where it joins my neighbour's (directly above the yellow house alarm unit):

 

 

And in this one, the light between the old grey gutter and the fascia is, I'm sure, fascia and not timber batten:

 

 

Gaz

 

Edited 15 January, 2023 by Gaz
typo

[Gaz]

Just been to look at the brackets and fascia on the back of the house.  Clearly vertical and not tilted back at the top:

 

 

Just for a comparison.

 

Gaz

 

Edited 15 January, 2023 by Gaz

[J.R.]

I have two observations which may or may not be valid given the photos could have been misinterpreted by my tired old (singular) eye.

 

If they were to have moved the soffit out to be flush with the timber as you suggest the gutter would (probably) be too far out and water would run backwards from the lip of the tiles (more later) and drop down the back of it especially in windy weather, I reckon the overhang was already minimal and when you add on the thickness of the UPVC soffit they have clad over your old one with then it became very marginal, they would not have given themselves the grief of chopping out the batten unless they had to.

 

But the really important thing, is the lack of sarking felt which is a fillet of felt laid under the roof felt and which should guide the drips into the gutter, you can see some shredded remains of it in one of the photos.

 

Its fairly common for it to be degraded or non existant on older properties and the UPVC cladding guys are not going to lose a sale by telling you that you should get it done first & it's not something they want to do, I get that, I never did mine when I reclad the soffits and eaves (BTW I may have used the worng terms earlier on, I am losing my English) but if it is absent then the gutter has to be precisely fitted, it looks like they may even have tried to raise the gutter to tuck it under the overhang or maybe those cut outs were already there, they dont look like fresh cut timber.

 

Maybe they inherited a not so good  job in the first place, given your exposed location it might be worth considering having the sarking felt replaced, it involve removing the bottom 2 rows of tiles and their battens.

 

Good luck anyway, hopefully when they refit the gutter securely there will be no drips and you can forget it.

[fabdavrav]

2 hours ago, Gaz said:

 

Not really what we're looking for, but in terms of the fascia that was there before, it can be seen to be vertical here, not tipping back at the top - looking at where it joins my neighbour's (directly above the yellow house alarm unit):

 

 

And in this one, the light between the old grey gutter and the fascia is, I'm sure, fascia and not timber batten:

 

 

Gaz

 

 

Ok standard white painted wood facia & with old cement board soffit & shiplap cladding & brickwork....& gutters with brackets at good spacing!!!  The old wood that was shown in the previous photos is the bottom "Tile Fillet" to angle the bottom row of tiles up ...

 

2 hours ago, Gaz said:

Just been to look at the brackets and fascia on the back of the house.  Clearly vertical and not tilted back at the top:

 

 

Just for a comparison.

 

Gaz

 

 

Those countersinks biting in will cause problems & as you say everything vertical in this photo. I reckon that the others were "off" & maybe not 100% screwed tight as the screws too long? This would allow the bracket to be loose & flex upwards when the wind caught the gutter...so the repeated lifting & dropping of the gutter with each wind gust will cause the screws to oval the holes in the brackets & break the brackets & also wiggle the screws out the woodwork. I bet they did not pilot drill the holes in the woodwork either which having two holes close together caused the wood to split between the holes as shown in one of your previous photos...

 

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

I have two observations which may or may not be valid given the photos could have been misinterpreted by my tired old (singular) eye.

 

If they were to have moved the soffit out to be flush with the timber as you suggest the gutter would (probably) be too far out and water would run backwards from the lip of the tiles (more later) and drop down the back of it especially in windy weather, I reckon the overhang was already minimal and when you add on the thickness of the UPVC soffit they have clad over your old one with then it became very marginal, they would not have given themselves the grief of chopping out the batten unless they had to.

 

But the really important thing, is the lack of sarking felt which is a fillet of felt laid under the roof felt and which should guide the drips into the gutter, you can see some shredded remains of it in one of the photos.

 

Its fairly common for it to be degraded or non existant on older properties and the UPVC cladding guys are not going to lose a sale by telling you that you should get it done first & it's not something they want to do, I get that, I never did mine when I reclad the soffits and eaves (BTW I may have used the worng terms earlier on, I am losing my English) but if it is absent then the gutter has to be precisely fitted, it looks like they may even have tried to raise the gutter to tuck it under the overhang or maybe those cut outs were already there, they dont look like fresh cut timber.

 

Maybe they inherited a not so good  job in the first place, given your exposed location it might be worth considering having the sarking felt replaced, it involve removing the bottom 2 rows of tiles and their battens.

 

Good luck anyway, hopefully when they refit the gutter securely there will be no drips and you can forget it.

 

A few pointers as we are on the same page..!...😉

 

"Soffit" is protruding underside, "Facia" is the vertical outward face...."Eaves" is generally the whole wall to roof join area. The section of wood with the bits cut out for the brackets is most likely the "Tile fillet" to get the first row of tiles at the right angle/slope... 

 

Sarking means slightly different things around the world...boards or felt or membrane....& arguments still go on!!

 

Sarking felt...usually only called roofing felt as most tiled properties (in UK) do not have sarking (narrow boards or big sheets)....Usually its only slates or properties in high wind areas which have sarking (boards). The whole roof should be watertight if correctly done to not need felt. Felt is only there for "belt & braces" i.e. a tile/slate breaks & for condensation drips which form on the back of the tiles. I wouldn't worry about it too much, but cutting a felt roll down the width (end up with 2x half width rolls) & sliding that up under the existing felt would ok. However you will be having to cut it into 600mm (usually) long sections to slide it up between the counter battens which are nailed through the felt & onto the rafters. "Counter battens" run up the slope of the roof...then you have "Battens" horizontally nailed across these which the tiles rest on. So removing the last two rows of tiles would also involve removing the battens/counterbattens to felt correctly...Much easier to just slide sections of felt up & under for the amount of "problems" that may occur with the existing degradation of the felt shown in the photos.

 

Getting the guttering height & projection to end of slate/tile is site dependant..., i.e. is the top of the guttering lower than the end of the slate/tile, &/or is the end of the slate/tile in middle of the gutter.

 

It depends on the roof angle, length of gutter & what you have to work with. Best to start with the high points (point furthest from outlet/downpipe) of the gutter first, get these as high as possible, usually the uppermost screw hole in the bracket is on level with the bottom of the slate/tile... Then on a long run (should be no longer than 6m per outlet) you should end up with the top of the gutter 20mm below where you started to get the minimum fall/slope.

 

Regarding the distance the gutter is in/out from the roof...The lowest edge of the tile/slate should "cover" no more than 1/2 of the gutter width. Preferably you want it to cover about 1/4 of the width (leaving 3/4 of the gutter exposed/open) so that on a long run when you have dropped a further 20mm you still have enough of the gutter behind the tile/slate to catch any backward blown drips!

 

Re the brackets @Gaz...lets say they are screwed using stainless pan heads like I use the fall is right & they have short spacing between the brackets. As the plastic facia is not as solid as even a thin wood facia I would do the following:- ..Once the brackets have be correctly marked out & screw holes drilled...rough the back of the brackets with 60 or 80 grit sand paper...mark the outline of the bracket on the facia & rough inside the outline with 60/80grit sandpaper...wipe both areas with meths to get rid of dust etc....apply Everbuild "stixall extreme" to back of bracket, stick it to facia & screw it....

Edited 15 January, 2023 by fabdavrav
clarity

[cheezemonkhai]

The fact they notched the wood rather than adapting the facia board depth and if required using some zinc etc is not great.

 

I would have expected some marine ply behind the facia to give something to grip into and to space out to the right place. At the least some packers.

 

Different people do things differently, but I wouldn’t do it the way they did and would consider it a bodge.

Edited 15 January, 2023 by cheezemonkhai

[cheezemonkhai]

10 hours ago, Gaz said:

 

G'id 'em up, move 'em out..... Rawhiiiiddeeee! 🤣

 

Kinda hoping the unit will condensate so it gets replaced. Time will tell.

 

G

It does doesn’t it?

 

I’d have struggled to see the difference between condensation and I light misting with a plant mister from a picture 😂

[fabdavrav]

14 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

The fact they notched the wood rather than adapting the facia board depth and if required using some zinc etc is not great.

 

I would have expected some marine ply behind the facia to give something to grip into and to space out.got the correct fall.

 

Different people do things differently, but I wouldn’t do it the way they did and would consider it a bodge.

 

Actually companies like Floplast who make plastic guttering & PVC facia systems recommend that new PVC facia & soffits are fixed to sound existing wood facias..if not then fixed to 12mm thick marine ply.

 

Only exception when to not use marine ply/existing wood is when using their (Floplast)  "Mammoth" (18mm thick) facia/soffit systems as this is much stronger than the standard 9mm or 10mm stuff...

 

From Floplast brochure:-