Double or triple glazing?

[Gaz]

Our double glazing is probably 30-35 years old, and we're about to replace the lot.

 

Since we've been here (22 years), the road out front has become significantly busier, and, as a rat run, noisier, so I want to look at noise reduction.  We've had two quotes so far, and both have given differing advice, surprise, surprise.

 

One has said to use acoustic glazing (double), and the other has said acoustic glazed units aren't that much better than standard double glazed units and triple glazed units are the way to go.

 

I'm sure whatever we get, it'll be better than what we have now, but can anyone offer any real world advice?

 

I'm obviously able to rummage on the interwebnet for info on the merits of different gaps, glass thicknesses, gases, wood vs uPVC et al, but I'd be very interested in any comments.

 

First quotes in, for eight windows (three triple glazed) and a door (pretty standard three bed end of terrace) at £7,700, or £11,000 if we do the fascias, soffits, gable end, gutters and drainpipes as well (our front soffits went walkabout a few years ago and never came back, so it's quite tempting).

 

Gaz

 

Edited 29 March, 2022 by Gaz
grammar

[Ootohere]

@Gazsorry no help just a question.   Are the quotes from a pretty local well established company who use local tradespeople, or from a rep for a Nationwide company that advertise and have there own trades or use others companies to do the installation?   How do prices compare between the different way of having the work done?

Edited 29 March, 2022 by roottoot

[Gaz]

Local company, well established (40 years), all their own employees, one of whom's a personal friend.  Which Trusted Trader.  Chap who came said they won't be the cheapest and won't be the most expensive (I don't mind paying a bit more for the desired results).

 

The front of our house is south facing towards open skies.  We've four blown units at the moment, all at the front.  Never had a North or West facing unit blow.  I remember reading some time ago that sealed units aren't always the way to go.  Heat extremes and resulting pressure changes at the front will be the cause I guess.

 

Gaz

[john999boy]

@Gaz I've got about 28 panes facing south which have been in for about the same time as yours - all are as good now as when they were installed. You could just have had a dodgy window company previously?

[J.R.]

Blown units happen because the bottom edges are sitting in water, glazing packers should be used and in an ideal world drainage channels should be included at the design stage, my alu framed windows from 1988 had them but they have been done away with since, my French manufactured hardwood double glazed window all have drilled drainage holes and like the alu windows I never get blown units but they are the perfect habitat for spiders, wasps etc.

 

I have one second hand top of the range Everest window and door from the 80's, no glazing packers and I had replaced the sealed units twice before I wised up.

[Gaz]

@john999boy Dodgy possibly, but before our time here, so I can't really whine too much.  I've just balked at replacing them because they still let light in and keep the weather out.  Hinges, handles (cockspur) and screws have all seen better days too.

 

@J.R. Some of the seals around the glazing have shrunk away in the corners which increases spider habitat and through routes.  I dare say my Wife's arachnophobia will also be a contributory factor in why we're doing it now.  Plugging small gaps with Blu-tac has been a quite successful method of keeping them at bay.

 

Gaz

[cheezemonkhai]

Triple every time if you're going to spend the money and replace the frame.

Otherwise just get some new units made up and replace the blown/starting to mist ones only.

The frames are expensive.

 

If the old glazing is double glazed, (With a reasonable spacer width), not draughty and functioning well, then don't bother on cost as it will never pay for itself.

If you want quietness and better heat retention or a new look or your old windows are single/banjaxed then triple is the correct answer.

 

Acoustic is marginally better on sound vs dbl, but not vs triple.

One the shrunken seals, clean with a suitable damp cloth or appropriate solvent and then apply some silicon grease a few times. It works wonders.

Also if the frames are white, there are UPVC cleaners out there (which fitters use) which will bring them up like new... or there's always CIF.

 

 

What I'd probably do is something entirely different.

 

I'd install mechanical heat recovery ventilation (MHRV) and then I'd start making sure plaster is in good nick and addressing all the structural air leaks in the building that don't come from the windows. Temporary measure to help this would be to caulk and mastic (as appropriate) around the current window frames to reduce leakage from the frame to wall interface.

 

Once that is completed, then spend a bit of time hunting down the air leaks, sorting them out (sockets, light fittings to the loft, extractor fans and other penetrations) and then pay for a leak test.

 

Once you've got the building pretty air tight (not totally) and insulation installed wherever the most heat leakage then you can look at your windows.

Have a look at underfloor heating whilst you're doing the work, as if you can this will save you on heating costs and helps with heat pumps in the future.

 

Once you have MHRV and low air leakage, you don't need to have night vents in the frames (A constant, but required, source of cold draughts). Night vents also allow noise and dirty air in if you're next to a road.

 

You might need to check the ventilation in any rooms with gas appliances that don't have balanced flu mind.

 

At this point you get your triple glazed frames purchased and installed, you make it all good and run another air leak test to make sure the installers sealed it all up ok again.

 

Now you're house is much warmer, much cheaper to run and depending on the house can support something like a heat pump.

As a bonus, the air being pulled into the house is filtered and can come from the back of the house rather than the road side. This will reduce air poluution from the cars making it into your rooms.

 

 

In my youth, I used to design the double glazing profiles/units and worked on anything that was too complex for the automated systems. If you have details of what you're comparing I can give you some pointers.

 

Oh and watch out for companies being cheaper by not including the correct frame re-inforcement/security features. It used to be an old favourite to save steel so you could be cheapest (but IMHO insecure)

Edited 29 March, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[cheezemonkhai]

4 hours ago, J.R. said:

Blown units happen because the bottom edges are sitting in water, glazing packers should be used and in an ideal world drainage channels should be included at the design stage, my alu framed windows from 1988 had them but they have been done away with since, my French manufactured hardwood double glazed window all have drilled drainage holes and like the alu windows I never get blown units but they are the perfect habitat for spiders, wasps etc.

 

I have one second hand top of the range Everest window and door from the 80's, no glazing packers and I had replaced the sealed units twice before I wised up.

 

Yes that's a common cause, but they also happen because the glazing compound breaks down with time, particularly with thermal cycling causing stress cracks on the corners. Once air/moisture is in there it's game over and time for a rebuild or replacement.

 

Most have a 10 year warranty on the unit and if you don't manage that, then either the unit was built or installed incorrectly (As you say).

When you get to 25 years old anything is a bonus and I've seen a good few last a lot longer, but it's not a case of once built they won't go.

 

[Gaz]

Thanks again Mr Cheeze 

 

There's so much that could be done, and thank you for the ideas.  I had the meeting with my boss last week, who basically told me they were not interested, so my plans, and means, are likely to be severely scaled back in the very near future.

 

Silicon grease I know about from owning CRX Del Sol's and I've already done that.  While effective, it didn't prove to be the panacea I'd hoped for (not really too much of a surprise).  And you're right, a significant overhaul might improve matters, but I'm mindful the extent means it'll be simpler to start again.  Even if we replaced all the glass, seals, hinges and handles, it wouldn't be that straightforward as the vast majority of the screws are rotten and will need drilling.

 

Triple glazing sounds the way to go then.  It's a big expense, so I want it done right as the last thing it want is a marginal improvement if I could've had better.

 

Gaz

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

How bad is the road noise?

 

 - how far from the road are you and what sort of traffic levels are there?

 - if it's heavy good vehicles and vibrations, then no glazing is going to really improve that a huge amount.

   (Just tyre/engine noise and yes triple will help. Also worth saying as the number of EV increases road noise *should* drop reasonably again.)

 

If you want to try some short term fixes, that don't cost too much before you part with your cash:

 

1) Clean the seals as above, (any really broken ones can probably be replaced if you're luck enough to find the correct seal.)

 

2) Look at the night vents on the windows. If they're a standard size, you can buy acoustic night vents, which do make quite a difference
These sort of things make a nice difference when they are open vs standard ones:

https://www.titon.com/uk/products/window-door-hardware/window-vents-window-door-hardware/sf-xtra-sound-attenuator-vent/

 

3) Plant a nice dense hedge or a fence and some suitable foliage/short trees between the road and the house, closer to the road the better.

Oddly a flowerbed with some bushes in just below the windows can help a lot too.

 

4) Check the silicon outside and if you're repairing there, make sure the window frames are sealed to the building using a suitable expanding frame sealer.

    (Older installs tended to be screw it in well, then mastic a trim piece in place). Any large gaps around the frames make a big difference when closed.

 

I have to say I missed that you have cockspur handles, they're a right security risk as most are way to easy to split or force off the frame surface.

Have a look and see if the bead for installing the window glass (you'll see a line on the plastic where it meets the frame) is on the inside or the outside.

Again, if it's on the outside 90% of the systems are a security risk, that I won't go into, but you want shot.

 

Assuming that after all of that you've decided to get rid and replace, then I'd still make sure you put in a MHRV system.

If you don't do that, then building regs say you have to have night vents and if you have them, the road noise is coming in regardless of what you fit.

 

On the fitters side:

 

- How well do you know the fitters who are offering the new windows?

  (I'd ask them who makes the profiles they use as that will give a good idea of input costs and wake them up a bit.)

- How many windows are you looking to replace?/Are you looking to do the doors as well?

- How many quotes have you had from different companies.

 

Basically ignore any that are stupid cheap, but a lot of the time the PVCu stuff has  large profits on it.

It's many years ago now, but I remember giving 50-80% discounts to the companies that purchased regularly, which tells you large they used to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 March, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[Gaz]

We won't know the fitters at all, but our friend was a fitter for them and is now QA for them.  We trust him implicitly.

 

Eight windows, the majority being five panes and four openers.  Two quotes, one not arrived yet.  The £11,300 quote has been rounded down to £10k all inclusive. We've invited another company to quote too.

 

We had established conifers out the front, about 5' high, but took them out because they were a useful receptacle for all manner of trash from passing school kids.  It became apparent after they were gone just how much of a noise break they were 🙄

 

The road is about 30' from the front of my house.  It's cars and a busy bus route (bus every five mins max.) Very little heavy goods.

 

Most of the screws look like this:

 

Cockspur handles - this is one of the better ones:

 

Beading is both inside and out - you can see the shrinkage:

 

With splits:

 

And more gaps (aka trickle vents? 😁)

 

 

Gaz

 

Edited 30 March, 2022 by Gaz
Moving the pics around

[Lady Elanore]

I used to live near Manchester airport, literally at the end of the runway (Ringway Road, look it up, it's close!) and we had triple pane glass. It was double glazed set up, but had a third pane added as a secondary installation. It meant we lost a lot of the relatively shallow window ledge, but it did mean that, as the third pane slid to one side (it was therefore still possible to open a window for fresh air) you could place your Venus fly traps in there and had a ready-made greenhouse for them  

 

After many years, my partner decided we should ditch the triple glaze and go for an alleged specialist double glazing designed for use on busy roads. Now the triple pane glass not only cut out the aeroplanes to a fair degree, but also kept the road noise down an awful lot. I wasn't so happy with the idea of mere double glazing, as I'd been used to triple pane glass in the sound studios I sometimes worked in and figured they were there for a reason. Sure enough the double glazing gave us our window ledge back, meant the Venus flytraps died in the winter and the ruddy road noise annoyed the heck out of me - and it was a very, very busy road. 

 

I would say if the noise is a genuine issue, don't think about it, go triple. It does not look as nice and you lose some of the window ledge, but the peace and quiet is a big improvement . 

[mac11irl]

morning @Gaz

 

we got our windows done last year -

wooden frame double glazing to triple glazed pvc.

 

unless the windows are on the latch i hardly notice the bin men reversing up our cul de sac and emptying the bins outside the front of the house 15m away..

 

also you will get better u value from the triple - ie better heat retention in winter, but also... less heat infiltration i. summer as more light gets reflected back out by the middle pane.

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

On 30/03/2022 at 17:33, Gaz said:

We won't know the fitters at all, but our friend was a fitter for them and is now QA for them.  We trust him implicitly.

 

Eight windows, the majority being five panes and four openers.  Two quotes, one not arrived yet.  The £11,300 quote has been rounded down to £10k all inclusive. We've invited another company to quote too.

 

We had established conifers out the front, about 5' high, but took them out because they were a useful receptacle for all manner of trash from passing school kids.  It became apparent after they were gone just how much of a noise break they were 🙄

 

The road is about 30' from the front of my house.  It's cars and a busy bus route (bus every five mins max.) Very little heavy goods.

 

Most of the screws look like this:

 

Cockspur handles - this is one of the better ones:

 

Beading is both inside and out - you can see the shrinkage:

 

With splits:

 

And more gaps (aka trickle vents? 😁)

 

 

Gaz

 

Having seen them, no they’re not worth repairing…

Too many bits to add additional expense when something doesn’t go to plan.

 

The seals you picture probably won’t make that much difference to noise due to the convoluted route through. Cold draught wise they certainly won’t help.

 

I can’t be certain from the pictures that they’re externally beaded, but they do look it and the handles are weak, so security won’t be the best.

 

At the front it doesn’t need to be conifers, but something about 4’6” makes an amazing difference to noise. Dense bushes or confiers do a lot for noise.

 

BTW you can get triple with acoustic frames 👍

Edited 1 April, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[Gaz]

Thanks folks - triple glazed it is 

 

I've always fancied a nicely pruned privet hedge.  Maybe I'll brooch the subject once we're all winder'd up 😁

 

Gaz

[VWD]

Gaz- thermal insulation . Either external or internal. We've had it ( external) for a few yearws and it works both in summer and winter).

[fabdavrav]

I have double glazing on windows facing a main street that has boy racers at night....no sound problems...

 

But then its all uPVC frames & 26mm or 28mm (can't remember exactly) thick glazing units....

 

Another trick is to go for Argon gas filled (between the glass in the unit)  as it improves the U value, i.e. it reduces heat loss further. You can also spec glass which has a better U value as well. I have huge Velux windows & have both Argon gas filled & laminated on one side & toughened on the other..& it reduced the U valve right down!..I get ice on the outside now as its shifted the dew point to outside & no more condensation on the inside!! 

 

Triple is only if you have ££ to throw at it & live next to loads of noise as its only advantage is sound reduction.

Edited 10 April, 2022 by fabdavrav
spelling

[Gaz]

Installers came today to do the gutters, fascias, soffits and gable end.  Or so we thought.

 

Rather threw our plans somewhat when they arrived with all the windows and glass instead.  Nevermind.

 

It's a bit noisy here at the moment.  No going back now:

 

 

 

Gaz

 

 

 

Edited 6 June, 2022 by Gaz

[cheezemonkhai]

Those new windows are not going to help with the noise, some buggers gone and cut a great hole in them

 

Good luck with it all and here is hoping for a quieter few days

What did you go with in the end?

 

If they were specified, then that they used the low noise trickle vents if you can.

Edited 6 June, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[KenONeill]

3 hours ago, Gaz said:

they arrived with all the windows and glass instead.

Right weather for it.

[cheezemonkhai]

22 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Right weather for it.

 

Doing window replacement in p*ssing rain isn't fun at all, although you can cover the front with plastic sheeting and do it all from the inside.

Inevitably water manages to get in at some point and sealing it outside is a pain, so it's far better to do it on a dry day

[Gaz]

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

What did you go with in the end?

Triple glazed at the front, double glazed at the back (no road noise). No trickle vents at all. Large window on gable end (stairs) changed to an opening one, and both windows (one frame) in the bathroom now open, instead of one. One of the triple glazed units cracked as the last bit of plastic was tapped home. Hardly notices, but the poor chap was well peeved. 
Back tomorrow to do the lounge window, back door and the rest of it, provided the scaffolders turn up (needed for the gable end boards).

 

Gaz

[cheezemonkhai]

I assume they’re replacing that unit.

As you have not had any trickle vents you’ll need to be careful to regularly ventilate rooms to prevent build up of damp etc.

 

I would strongly suggest getting some whole house mechanical Ventilation without vents.

 

Now it’s in has it made a difference to the noise that was worth it in your mind?

[Gaz]

Can still hear the traffic, but it's certainly more muffled (in a good way).  Was it worth it? Well Mrs Gaz is happy, so yes, I suppose it was.

 

I'll be very happy to see the back door replaced.  It had to be damaged a fair bit when the lock mechanism failed, and it has cigarette burns in the cill from when Mrs Gaz's Mum was alive (post stroke), which were a constant annoyance and reminder.

 

Minor crack:

 

Weather got better as the day wore on Ken:

 

Back bedroom unit being lifted up (easier than trying to get it around the stairs):

 

Gaz

Edited 6 June, 2022 by Gaz
Losing the ability to type half sensibly

[cheezemonkhai]

Daft question, but have they fitted cockspur handles to modern windows or is the window with the van outside the old one about to come out?

 

If they have fitted them to new windows I'm surprised to say the very least.

Edited 7 June, 2022 by cheezemonkhai