Ah ha! Well that will deal with many of the sort of people that will hog a charge point.

But not very affluent people who don't care about £10/hour overstay fee.

^^^^ Charging and paying the penalty for overstay looks to me like good value parking.

In Edinburgh it can e cheaper to pay a Parking Fine than to pay for parking meters and be limited to 4 hours.

Just as long as in a parking bay and the car is not towed.

 

@EnterName Luckily for me for a while this older charger has been giving out electric without having to activate so i have been able to get an hours charge and enough to get home from Edinburgh Airport.   

Others have been using the chargers next to it and not noticing that Edinburgh City now have a limit of 30 minutes charging then the penalty.

You have to come off a charger and move to another, the problem is how useless the card readers are and the communications and i have actually not managed to get any of the 6 chargers to start at some attempts.

When i have got them going that has cost £6 for the 30 minutes which is fair enough, but really i do need an hour, and even the Black Hybrid Cabs need 50 minutes on the 50 kW charges.

 

There are 4 22 kW chargers you can stay on for 3 hours, and then the 7 kW ones that are 30 pence a kWh and you can stay on for 12 hours.

This is Edinburgh Airport Park and Ride.

@ Stirling Park & ride there are 60 7 kWh chargers that are Free to use, 8 22 kWh and only 4 50kWh chargers. Free and with no penalty.

I would pay there if they were to put a 60 minute limit on the 4 50 kWh chargers, that is to stop the ignorant that park on them for hours. 

 

Edited 23 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

They deserve each other with their annoying voices.  No wonder her car gave up on voice commands.,..

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

An emergency button "for those moments when you think"?

How very 2020's!

Edit:

Posh voices with "urban" language is so incongruous. ""It daahs luke sick, daahsn't it?" 🤣

 

Edited 23 June, 20223 yr by EnterName

Actually for Charger Rage when you pull up to charge in the late hours of the night and a Audi Hybrid has been 14 hours blocking a charger, 

or an Audi or Tesla is plugged in for hours.  

People are getting peed off with the greedy and ignorant.  The charger might stay locked in but they will be coming back to their battery not full and maybe their day messed up.

 

eg

She that parks up this Tesla overnight on the 50 kW charger of which there are only 2,

and she might bother to turn up sometime in the morning and move it, and she appears angry when people leave notes on her windscreen.

It did not stop her doing it.  Or the Audi e-Tronic driver that would put their car on  the other rapid charger all night.

 

The light is Green on the charger and not Blue because the Tesla is fully charged hours earlier and not moved.

If someone hits the STOP button it would be RED.

The Smart is on an AC charger and i am next on the DC CCS. Next the black car is on the AC.

Edited 23 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

4 minutes ago, roottoot said:

Actually for Charger Rage when you pull up to charge in the late hours of the night and a Audi Hybrid has been 14 hours blocking a charger, 

or an Audi or Tesla is plugged in for hours.  

People are getting peed off with the greedy and ignorant.  The charger might stay locked in but they will be coming back to their battery not full and maybe their day messed up.

Living in the Birmingham area, chances are if you tick the wrong people off, you'd come back to find your car missing, on bricks or burnt-out.

If I was a car thief, I might use charging apps to see where there are no free chargers, i.e. there's an EV tied up ready to be nicked. It would make life a little easier.

Already some Tesla's can be very quickly cloned and stolen and I doubt car thieves will be slow in working out how to easily steal most electric vehicles before long.

I can imagine a booming industry in "Charging Security" devices to beat the thieves.

 

There is a public charging hub in Edinburgh where EV Vans are having their tyres slashed because the vans are hogging chargers and the bosses are not being firm enough with the daft employees that could not give a damn.

In Angus i Emailed the Convenor of Angus Council & other Senior staff and councillors when there were staff parking vans or cars on the very limited public chargers over holiday times.

100 yards away was the Council chargers that the public could not use. 

26 minutes ago, roottoot said:

There is a public charging hub in Edinburgh where EV Vans are having their tyres slashed because the vans are hogging chargers and the bosses are not being firm enough with the daft employees that could not give a damn.

In Angus i Emailed the Convenor of Angus Council & other Senior staff and councillors when there were staff parking vans or cars on the very limited public chargers over holiday times.

100 yards away was the Council chargers that the public could not use. 

I suppose while they're hogging EV charge points they're not hogging disabled spaces they shouldn't be parked in. 😏

2 hours ago, EnterName said:

One thing I don't think we've mentioned, is the possibility that if EVs drag the domestic price of electricity up as it's taxed more and more by the government, then the poorest among us who cannot afford a vehicle at all, never mind an EV, will find themselves paying a price for electricity that has been inflated through use of something they have no access to. (Sorry if someone's already mentioned this.)

But they will still have to use electricity. However poor, I can't imagine any home in the UK does not use electricity. Perhaps solar panels could be subsidised by means-testing for the poorest people.

I don't believe domestic prices will be taxed like petrol/diesel for the reason you've stated. it would be political suicide and not targeted enough. Even if they do, due to amount of people affected, it would only be a few %, would never be same level as petrol/diesel. 

 

There will be 2 ways EV to be taxed: 

- per-mile tax as I've stated earlier, across all cars. 

- rapid charging tax, to hit high mileage driver harder (they use the road more) and make this less green way of charging less attractive. 

 

Without super convoluted system to count or estimate miles against charging tax paid, taxing home charging can be easily circumvented. 

 

Subsidising solar panels have the problem that there are a vast number of unsuitable housing stock. The poorest among us also tend to live in flats (around here) where solar panel subsidies won't mean anything. Home battery subsidies, however, I think is a capital idea. Everyone can install this by clearing small space near the meter. Masses of those can help smooth grid demand (thus less reliant on expensive fossil fuel peaker plants) and utilise more cheap renewables. 

2 hours ago, EnterName said:

Ah ha! Well that will deal with many of the sort of people that will hog a charge point.

But not very affluent people who don't care about £10/hour overstay fee.

Why oh why could she not have walked into a lamp post while staring into her phone or flirting with the camera, if he had caught one of the shorter bollards in the ghoulies that would have been something, better still the truck reversing on the pavement, why did he not get a move on and wipe out both of them?

 

Can't pull out a plug because you only have one hand and the other is clutching a phonewith the elbow tucked in ay your side so you can't use your upper body or core muscles? Put it down? Of course not she started Googling while he used the particle of residual brain lodged in his skull to think of unlocking the car.

 

Drive from Bristol to London (I think) to spend 4 hours working (not) in a coffee shop, maybe the coffee shop owners will get so frustrated with these influencers and do what the truck driver failed.

 

Can you imagine having the pair of them in your establishment for 4 hours taking selfies and recording each others annoying antics and whinging about having to pay for a second coffee or be thrown out?

15 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I don't believe domestic prices will be taxed like petrol/diesel for the reason you've stated. it would be political suicide and not targeted enough. Even if they do, due to amount of people affected, it would only be a few %, would never be same level as petrol/diesel. 

 

There will be 2 ways EV to be taxed: 

- per-mile tax as I've stated earlier, across all cars. 

- rapid charging tax, to hit high mileage driver harder (they use the road more) and make this less green way of charging less attractive. 

 

Without super convoluted system to count or estimate miles against charging tax paid, taxing home charging can be easily circumvented. 

 

I'd suggest a well proven technology...

ANPR and toll tags for motorways, those who do the long journeys pay the most.

 

I think ther per mile tax is a non-starter.

The rapid charger tax is possible, but I think it would be very unpopular when you already have a time penalty for using an EV long range.

 

15 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

Subsidising solar panels have the problem that there are a vast number of unsuitable housing stock. The poorest among us also tend to live in flats (around here) where solar panel subsidies won't mean anything. Home battery subsidies, however, I think is a capital idea. Everyone can install this by clearing small space near the meter. Masses of those can help smooth grid demand (thus less reliant on expensive fossil fuel peaker plants) and utilise more cheap renewables. 

 

 

I think solar panels on flats is a great idea and is pretty easy to impliment.

Flats have roof space, taxes are paid by the freeholders on the value of the land. 

 - If they have solar panels on the roof to feed power to the residents and a central battery or heating system then they pay the current rate.

 - If they don't have solar panels on the roof then they pay a higher rate which is 5-10% higher.

 

Watch as all the freeholders fight to get solar on the roof to avoid taxes.

Edited 23 June, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

15 minutes ago, J.R. said:

.....

 

Drive from Bristol to London (I think) to spend 4 hours working (not) in a coffee shop, maybe the coffee shop owners will get so frustrated with these influencers and do what the truck driver failed.

 

Can you imagine having the pair of them in your establishment for 4 hours taking selfies and recording each others annoying antics and whinging about having to pay for a second coffee or be thrown out?

 

I've seen quite a few places state 1 hour wifi per drink and hand out pieces of paper to allow it.

Influences are unbelieveable in many places and are often just freeloaders ruining places for everyone else.

46 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

- rapid charging tax, to hit high mileage driver harder (they use the road more) and make this less green way of charging less attractive.

I don't have an EV and don't do high mileage but would prefer to use a faster charger as time is precious.

Whilst it is possible to stretch out a coffee break (slightly), any toilet breaks definitely don't need so much time to be allocated to them. 😉

BP polar at BP did my nut in trying to get the 3 chargers at Hearthill services east bound to work.  Eventually I did start the rapid plus charger at a crazy 54 pence a kWh after a few false starts.  Then I got a coffee for £1 because I was charging.  The prices in the shop were. OMG / WTF, and then the charger was giving a crap speed.    £12 credit on my account incase I need to use in an emergency like hell freezing over, the roads all grinding to a halt this winter and I get in there, or pigs flying.  

  

40 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I'd suggest a well proven technology...

ANPR and toll tags for motorways, those who do the long journeys pay the most.

Interesting.... how does this work cost-wise? Per-mile on higher speed roads?

 

42 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I think solar panels on flats is a great idea and is pretty easy to impliment.

Flats have roof space, taxes are paid by the freeholders on the value of the land. 

 - If they have solar panels on the roof to feed power to the residents and a central battery or heating system then they pay the current rate.

 - If they don't have solar panels on the roof then they pay a higher rate which is 5-10% higher.

 

Watch as all the freeholders fight to get solar on the roof to avoid taxes.

Good idea with freeholder tax.

 

But how does individual flats know when to put on the washing and not pay importing from the grid, because if they clash with their neighbour also doing the washing? The panels would have to be pre-allocated to individual flats, which would mean very little generation due to per-flat roof space limitation.

 

3 minutes ago, john999boy said:

I don't have an EV and don't do high mileage but would prefer to use a faster charger as time is precious.

Whilst it is possible to stretch out a coffee break (slightly), any toilet breaks definitely don't need so much time to be allocated to them. 😉

It's not like you are required to hold the plug in the car for hours while it charges. The cost of your time for slower destination charging (un-taxed in my example) is only plug in and unplug, you would be at your destination doing stuff. This is MUCH MUCH less time than waiting around for rapid charging en-route. The level of tax would not affect rapid charging speed.

 

The idea for rapid charging tax is so that people pay more to travel longer distances. Staying within home range would be tax free and encourage charge their EV slowly during off-peak, which helps the grid use night time wind.

 

I would combine rapid charging tax with new EV one-off large battery tax (bigger the battery, the higher embedded carbon emissions). This drives efficiency from manufacturers and gets people to choose their car and battery size sensibly.

Toilets.   Charging hubs with solar, wind turbines, battery storage and automated toilets.  I would pay £2 for a crap and have had to in the past.  Had to go buy food or drink during lockdown time to be able to use toilets.    The government need to support transport hubs for HGV,s, EV drivers,. Any travellers.   Proper commercial enterprises but owned by the people for the people and they can compete in the market. Training enterprises run by colleges / councils,. Regions. 

 

...................

Scorchio. 

My EV will have a flakey it is happiest at 18*oC, not 25*oC.    Spending my money saved seemed appropriate.

 

First of these big Hybrids i have seen charging. Hope it is not going to be a regular. 

 

Edited 23 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

  

Interesting.... how does this work cost-wise? Per-mile on higher speed roads?

 

Like many other countries in Europe, you pay to use Motorways...

Car tax being zero goes away and is based on some other factor (Such as weight - which after all does the damage).

Use of non-motorway roads are included in your car tax

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

Good idea with freeholder tax.

 

But how does individual flats know when to put on the washing and not pay importing from the grid, because if they clash with their neighbour also doing the washing? The panels would have to be pre-allocated to individual flats, which would mean very little generation due to per-flat roof space limitation.

 

Why limit it to the flat? A central battery system would also help and if you're dumping excess to a central heating system, then everyone benefits also.

 

Electric wise you could have each flat with their own import meter,  how you deal with the generation could be as simple as discounts on the service charges or and just have a single generation meter that is divided equally by the number of flats and offset from each bill. This latter option would require a government scheme, just like SEG, so it is standardised, but it's not beyond a fairly simple fix.

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

It's not like you are required to hold the plug in the car for hours while it charges. The cost of your time for slower destination charging (un-taxed in my example) is only plug in and unplug, you would be at your destination doing stuff. This is MUCH MUCH less time than waiting around for rapid charging en-route. The level of tax would not affect rapid charging speed.

 

As you say destination charging is cheap/easy and you are as you say parked up. My point was more that if people are already paying a higher rate (60p) to rapid charge and compared to ICE/hydrogen refill times are very slow, then effectively it has the effect of putting people off EV.

 

Of course once the infreastructure was there so that every bay had 7kW+ charging, it's a different story, but until then...

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

The idea for rapid charging tax is so that people pay more to travel longer distances. Staying within home range would be tax free and encourage charge their EV slowly during off-peak, which helps the grid use night time wind.

 

I would combine rapid charging tax with new EV one-off large battery tax (bigger the battery, the higher embedded carbon emissions). This drives efficiency from manufacturers and gets people to choose their car and battery size sensibly.

 

As for the up front purchase of battery tax, to me that is a complete no go.

Battery EV are so expensive as it is that you would effectively price most people out of a car.

I'd rather see a tax on miles per kW efficiency where it reflects it all.

A three pack whilst charging is dangerous...

Yeah, I can go with weight and/or efficiency tax. Anything to get more efficient cars.

 

I personally don't think there is a need for any EV more than 200 miles, even now. EV's are expensive now is because of the battery, bigger and bigger batteries are fitted is because of the misguided demand for range to match or even exceed fossil fuel cars. This mentality need to be stopped and changed.

 

5 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

just have a single generation meter that is divided equally by the number of flats and offset from each bill.

I've been reading up on this since switching to Octopus. I think it is exactly what you are saying, except in wind rather than solar form. This offset can make sense, I was thinking in my individual microgeneration ways.

https://octopus.energy/octopus-fan-club/

18 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Yeah, I can go with weight and/or efficiency tax. Anything to get more efficient cars.

 

I personally don't think there is a need for any EV more than 200 miles, even now. EV's are expensive now is because of the battery, bigger and bigger batteries are fitted is because of the misguided demand for range to match or even exceed fossil fuel cars. This mentality need to be stopped and changed.

It is quite common for quite a few jobs to have to visit a site 200+ miles away at short notice.

As it's short notice, you are highly unlikely to be able to get a room for the night.

 

My diesel has often and recently got 600 miles from a tank, which enabled me to get to site, fix the issue and get home before filling up.

With destination (and most) charging being in such a state, there is no way 200 miles is sufficient. That is before you take into account that a 300 miles summer range is a 200 mile winter range.

 

If they make a car with a 60-80kWh battery, which can do 450-500 miles (or more), then you're onto a winner.

That will only happen by making them low drag, lower mass (reduce body weight and also minimise the battery).

 

If you restrict battery cars to 200 or even 300 miles, then a reasonably large chunk of drivers (those who need a diesel for range), will need an alternative to a BEV, such as hydrogen. Personally I'd be very happy with a 250-300 mile BEV and a longer range Hydrogen car.

 

18 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

I've been reading up on this since switching to Octopus. I think it is exactly what you are saying, except in wind rather than solar form. This offset can make sense, I was thinking in my individual microgeneration ways.

https://octopus.energy/octopus-fan-club/

 

You're correct you don't need to make it solar for new builds, but I can imagine a fair few flats in build up areas adding a wind turbine might annoy the residents

New build however if the land is big enough, you could stick wind in a corner, solar on the roof (PV or heat) and be in a much better place than today.

Every building getting planning & going up residential or commercial would need to start having solar on now regardless of if any vehicles park at them as the energy will be required for the parking in the area. 

The amounts of money required are never going to get spent in the next decade. 

 

Kilmarnock.

http://emtecenergy.co.uk/case-studies/halo-hub

 

Edinburgh Airport.

http://solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/solar_plus_storage_plus_ev_charging_to_be_installed_at_edinburgh_airport

 

A wind turbine at a car park is simple.

Girvan Community Hospital.

http://e-architect.com/scotland/girvan-community-hospital

 

CRAZY but no battery storage, & no EV Chargers there yet but there should be as plenty other areas near have EV's for staff / employees.

Police & Emergency Services areas and such should all have solar and wind turbines on site.

 

 

 

Simple, every village or town, housing scheme, development

should have one or more of these. They will all need them very soon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

I figure the more the merrier in terms of wind, tidal and solar etc 👍

5 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

With destination (and most) charging being in such a state, there is no way 200 miles is sufficient. That is before you take into account that a 300 miles summer range is a 200 mile winter range.

 

If they make a car with a 60-80kWh battery, which can do 450-500 miles (or more), then you're onto a winner.

Back to the question I ask everyone: how often do you actually stop? Are you driving 450 miles in one go non-stop? Or do you stop somewhere for comfort break, during which time, the car can recharge back to 80% if you stretched the break to 20min *given enough infrastructure*

 

There will always be a need for cars to retain certain range for short notices. Of course longer range and bigger battery cars need to exist for those users. But they should not be the default purchase option, that's why I think a one-off battery sizing tax will make people think about their needs before making the purchase.

 

Hydrogen fuel cell long range car or a fuel cell range extender add-on would make sense, as long as it is only used by those driving long distance, due to the fact it is too wasteful to be the default for the majority. It's also illogical to carry around the extra battery just-in-case one might need it. Need to have mentality that different cars for different uses.

Edited 24 June, 20223 yr by wyx087

33 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Back to the question I ask everyone: how often do you actually stop? Are you driving 450 miles in one go non-stop? Or do you stop somewhere for comfort break, during which time, the car can recharge back to 80% if you stretched the break to 20min *given enough infrastructure*

 

Stops are typically when you need the loo and that’s it, say once every 2 hours and it’s stop in and out so probably 5-10 minutes max.

One customer site is just shy of 300 miles and as The didn’t know the car is at 80%… and it’s winter so let’s say remaining range is 200 miles.

 

Assuming all chargers are free but I can only find a 100kW charger, it’s 45 minutes. The 6:00am start now becomes  5:00am Get there for 10am, then do the work and leave probably 6pm. Home at 10pm after another 80% charge.

 

So a long day 6:00-9 now becomes 5:00-10pm. Too early for breakfast and too late for dinner at home so I better eat out all day. Imagine if there are only 50kW chargers… then it’s another 30 minutes added at each stop. If a charger doesn’t work or you have to queue you have a customer angry and asking for money back.

 

Nobody I know in a similar role will put up with that extension of an already long dayand that’s assuming 300 mile range with 200 from 80% in winter on the motorway at 70.

 

That is fundamentally why there is a desire for 500 mile cars, so you can get up, get there on 80% and make a single stop at the destination or on the way home.

People don’t plan for expensive things breaking down at random and car manufacturers don’t design batteries to charge to 100% every day.

 

Given lots of 350kW chargers, all unoccupied and an suitable 800V car, then stretching a break to 15 minutes and half a day on 7kW would indeed be fine. That’s the old chicken and egg though👍

 

33 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

There will always be a need for cars to retain certain range for short notices. Of course longer range and bigger battery cars need to exist for those users. But they should not be the default purchase option, that's why I think a one-off battery sizing tax will make people think about their needs before making the purchase.

 

But where do you cut off, 80kWh, 100kW… weight just seems fairer as 70kW battery in a steel car might not be lighter than an 85 in aluminium etc.

 

I get your point on people needing the mass of a large battery, I just think it’s a hard cell   Perhaps a per kW batter import tax.

 

 

33 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

Hydrogen fuel cell long range car or a fuel cell range extender add-on would make sense, as long as it is only used by those driving long distance, due to the fact it is too wasteful to be the default for the majority. It's also illogical to carry around the extra battery just-in-case one might need it. Need to have mentality that different cars for different uses.

You say it’s wasteful but I’m not sure. Yes it’s less delivered energy but provided it’s from wasted low carbon or off peak who cares. On the flip side a fuel cell is simpler, uses less resources and is far easier to recycle than a battery at present.

 

Whole life they’re probably similar, imho whatever wins wins as it’s still cleaner than ICE.

Cars with batteries with good capacity / range are not charging back to 80% on 20 or 30 minutes on a 50 kW charger. 

That is assuming you get on a 50 kW charger as soon as you arrive at one. 

 

Then cars with a 50 kW battery usable means you would be at 40 kWh and if you want some safety of 5% when getting to an anticipated charger means you have 35 kWh.

35 times 4 miles if you get that is 140 miles maybe until you go through this again.

 

35 x 3.1 miles is only 108.5 miles.      Its all a ball breaker for many right now.

........................................................................

 

Amazed at what he got a MINI to achieve.     Just a driver and warm weather though.

(I could not get 100 miles from one doing motorway / dual carriageway but then i can not get 140 miles from a 45kW battery in the Corsa-e)

 

A 32.6 kW battery usable getting 4.2 miles per kWh would be 137 miles run to empty.

http://autoexpress.co.uk/mini/mini/352323/new-mini-elkectric-level-2-long-term-test-review

*** The USABLE CAPACITY is 28.9 kWh unless they updated, so at 4.2 miles per kWh that is 118.9 miles.***

 

28.9 kWh x 5 miles = 144.5 miles.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 June, 20223 yr by roottoot