Karok 2 WD 1.5 SEL performance on ice

[Karock]

We live at 1000 ft on the Pennines so winters can be quite severe.

During the freeze last week our 400 metre farm track was sheet ice and the lane to the nearest B road again sheet ice.  I needed to travel to the nearest town so ventured out. To my surprise going downhill there was not the slightest indication of any loss of traction,but  even more surprising was the return journey particularly up a very steep part of the lane, no skidding at all. I do have winter tyres all round but was most impressed with the cars performance. The ABS was no doubt working overtime but certainly did its job.

[Ootohere]

The Winter tyres are the key to how good it was on ice then.

?

What have you got on? 

[Sanqhar]

On snow/ice 2 WD on winter tyres beats 4 WD on 'normal' tyres every day.

 

tom

[vegit8]

16 hours ago, toot said:

The Winter tyres are the key to how good it was on ice then.

 

Absolutely, depending on where you live and how much you NEED to drive in adverse conditions, I would say there are 2 options.

1. A full set of winters either on a second set of wheels or swapping the tyres each season, not a good idea over time. Repeatedly removing/refitting tyres will damage the bead.

2. Run all season tyres all year round, such as the Michelin Cross Climate 2, even down here in Dorset there are the odd occasions where untreated roads become slippery.

Plus I find the CC’s better in the rain and quieter in terms of road noise.

 

Yes I appreciate there will be a slight offset in performance in the height of summer if you are determined to drive hard and fast, fortunately I am not of that ilk!

[kodiaqsportline]

23 hours ago, Karock said:

We live at 1000 ft on the Pennines so winters can be quite severe.

farm track was sheet ice and the lane to the nearest B road again sheet ice.

going downhill there was not the slightest indication of any loss of traction

up a very steep part of the lane, no skidding at all.

The ABS was no doubt working overtime but certainly did its job.

 

Did you not mean to say TCS ( traction control )?  If ABS was working ovetime and doing it's job, you'd probably have ended up in a ditch in those conditions.

[Ootohere]

Traction Control / Anti Slip Regulation is usually what many switch off, as the constant nipping at brakes can be what puts you in a ditch or into a kerb.

Not so bad if the car has traction with the tyres and surface but when slip sliding the TC can be hopeless.

As the owners manual  mentions, switch off to get unstuck when rocking back and fore or with snow chains fitted. 

 

From the Karoq manual.

Edited 22 December, 2022 by toot

[Karock]

Toot,

 

The tyres are Michelin Alpine on a spare set of wheels. A fair bit ofpremature  cracking on the edges ( several owners have complained of this) but they seem to perform very well.

 

ABS, traction control or whatever my understanding is that they all use ABS sensors to detect differences in wheel rotation.

[Ootohere]

@Karock

So they are they pre-used Michelin Alpin so older.  How old?

 

I have Alpin 6 on the rear of my Corsa that are 2 years old with 32,000 miles on them. No cracking.

I did bulge the fronts on potholes and tear them a few weeks back and scrapped them.  No cracking though.  Great tyres. 

Edited 23 December, 2022 by toot

[Karock]

Toot,

 

I bought the alpines as unused 2 years ago on alloys but suspect that they had been hanging around for some time. I could not identify a date code last time I looked

[kodiaqsportline]

11 hours ago, Karock said:

Toot,

 

The tyres are Michelin Alpine on a spare set of wheels. A fair bit ofpremature  cracking on the edges ( several owners have complained of this) but they seem to perform very well.

 

ABS, traction control or whatever my understanding is that they all use ABS sensors to detect differences in wheel rotation.

 

ABS certainly ain't going to detect rotation on sheet ice because when the wheel slips it thinks it's stopped. At least a locked wheel will dig in to snow and slow the vehicle but ABS has the opposite effect, whenever it detects a locked wheel, it'll release the brake then stamp on it again ( never ever a good idea on snow / ice ) then release, then stamp etc... 

 

You said it yourself - you detected no slipping. ABS, TPS, TC certainly wasn't working overtime or you'd have known about it.

 

If you were driving slow as you should have been and being gentle on the brake as you should do on sheet ice, the sensors wouldn't have been doing anything. Traction would have been purely down to those tyres.

Edited 23 December, 2022 by kodiaqsportline

[Karock]

As you seem to be an expert what sensors other than the ABS sensors are used to detect unwanted differences in the speed or otherwise of the wheels to implement corrective measures be they ABS TRaction control or whatever?

[Ootohere]

As long as the functions do work then all is good. 

Skoda used to have ABS on some models and ESP was not standard & needed paid for as an option. That was just a decade back.

 

Now people get cars and struggle to know what they have and what does what.  No matter how Simply Clever it is, if the tyres are getting no grip with the surface there can be issues.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/490648-xds-or-edl-or-xdl-electronic-differential-lock-is-it-supplied-at-all-in-the-uk

 

[vegit8]

Just been watching a video of a residential cross roads in NY state. The road crossing from right to left is level (lets say East to West), the other road (N/S) slopes downwards.

The E/W road has a camber that matches the slope. There was a light dusting of snow, that was not compacted.

Almost every vehicle had issues travelling in any direction. 

Now… the vast majority of American cars are automatic, plus they still like to drive hugely over powered vehicles.

Match that with summer tyres and everyone goes no where.

Despite traction control and other systems, the lack of ability by the driver to put down the minimum level of energy required to start/keep moving results in spinning wheels.

Until T/C kicks in then you get the strange spectacle of vehicles going along with one driving wheel locked and the other pulling (until they hit the kerb of course).

 

In the ‘good old days’ of manual gearboxes, narrow tyres and low powered engines most people that had to get around could.

 

Main problem nowadays is no matter how good a driver you are or what tyres you are wearing, if a dunce in front gets stuck or blocks the road, then you are struck as well!!

Edited 25 December, 2022 by vegit8

[Ootohere]

Automatic, semi automatics, automated manuals and CVTs are not a problem.

Many for decades have had Winter / Snow settings.

 

Many Offroaders and vehicles for travelling on Snow / Glaciers are automatic.  These can be powerful engines. The difference is that the right tyres and the proper application of the accelerator pedal makes all the difference.

 

DQ200's 7 speed twin dry clutch DSG's can work very well on snow and ice, or at junctions with the steering turned. 

 

 

[Karock]

Last year our neighbour who has A LR Discovery  was saying how it had a winter/snow setting and that driving in winter conditions was no problem. The next day the farm track was icy and he landed in a ditch and had to be pulled out by a tractor.

The same day I went down the same track and back up the very slippery 1 in 5 hill with summer tyres ( Bridgestones) without incident, mainly keeping in as high a gear as possible and being as smooth as possible with the right pedal.

 

If I had attempted the hill by  going slowly as advised a few posts above the icy hill would have defeated me. On that occasion the ABS, Traction control or whatever was constantly clacking away and certainly did its job.

 

[Ootohere]

@KarockThere is the common issue. We have no idea what tyres were on the discovery and if the settings were used correctly.

Edited 25 December, 2022 by toot

[DSL]

Sounds like the old story “I’m in such-and-such 4x4 so I’m invincible”.  The most important part of the driver/car/tyres combo is the nut behind the wheel.  If he/she’s not doing their part properly then there’s a good chance it will all end in tears.

 

Gratuitous winter pic of my long dead Disco 3, may she Rust In Pieces.

 

 

 

Mind you, I by far preferred off roading in warmer climates. She loved trips to the sandbox. 👍
 

😀

 

 

Edited 25 December, 2022 by DSL

[Choclab]

Bridgestone Desert Duellers, on my old Lada Niva, were as good in snow as in sand. Having an easy run round the old West Wycombe off road course, but cooling off after rescuing a LR!