EPC and other faults suddenly happening

[JohnGarth]

Hi,

 

Our Fabia III 1.2 has suddenly developed a series of faults after being 100% reliable for 6 years. EPC, exhaust inspection system warning lights, start/stop error all just happened but the engine still goes although idles very roughly. Also it can't find the key battery which is an almost new CR2032. Our local Skoda dealer is booked for weeks ahead. Any ideas? Car fully serviced, regularly used for mainly short journeys and has done about 23,000 miles.

[varooom]

Try to use this map to locate someone with VCDS who can read fault codes and do a live data log of the car when driving etc.

 

Save you waiting a while for a dealer

[nta16]

Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

 

Check the voltage of the car battery after being parked up for a couple of hours, if low it could be the cause and you're best to fully recharge the battery using an appropriate battery charger (and maintainer)

 

Talking of batteries, my wife's non-KESSY (thank gawd) fob takes 2025 (20mm wide by 2.5mm deep) the 2032 is 3.2mm deep.

 

Good idea to use a scanner but often it tells you what wrong that you already know and not the cause, good to have a readout though if you want to post it but check the battery voltage anyway as the start/stop is a warning that your battery might have been low for a while unless it's had recent heavy use.

 

Edited 19 February, 2023 by nta16

[Ootohere]

@JohnGarth

 

Hopefully just the battery.

I see it has had the cam belt changed and the water pump.  (Not sure i would have changed that.) 

?

Have the spark plugs been replaced when the car has been fully serviced, and has it got a clean air filter fitted?

I would fill the tank with E5 rather than E10 and use that for a few tanks until after March even if you do get a new battery fitted.

 

[JohnGarth]

Thanks for your advice.  I will check the battery which is about 2 years old, but it's not given any sign of needing charging as the start/stop system appears to work OK up to now. Currently I'm somewhat worried about running the Fabia with all it's faults as I don't want to risk engine damage. I will speak to the dealer on Monday to see what they recommend. I called in my breakdown people when the EPC warning symbol appeared suddenly on Friday and they couldn't find anything seriously amiss so cleared the code, but within half-a-mile today all the faults appeared so I drove back home.

 

The KESSY key is an annoying problem that we've lived with for several years. The Fabia constantly complains that the key battery needs replacing and will only last about 1-2 months with a new battery, but it's getting progressively worse. I took the advice of other forum members when trying a CR2032 instead of the normal CR2025 as it has extra capacity and will fit the keyfob with a bit of persuasion. The keyfob lives in a Faraday bag when not in the car, and the Fabia key components and sensors have supposedly been checked by the dealer when serviced, and no fault found. I've tried all types of makes of replacement CR2025 batteries, and the Duracell brand seems to last the longest, including the current CR2032 recently purchased. It's a right royal pain!

 

Our 100% reliable and brilliant Octavia Scout fortunately doesn't have KESSY keys so the key battery is replaced once in a blue moon. Also it has the original car battery from new in October 2015 and still working well, and indeed so is the rest of the car! We're on our third Fabia and third Octavia in about 20 years. The Octavias have amassed just two car faults in all that time - a rear window wiper motor that wasn't working when new, and a failed glowplug, both fixed under warranty.  Annoyingly the Octavia Scout is no longer available new so our current one will probably be run into the ground. The Fabias haven't been anything like as reliable although they haven't done the mileage nor the hard work of the Octavias (used as towcars). Fabia Mk 2 only broke down once with a minor fault, but was otherwise quite expensive to maintain with faults to suspension and aircon which cost hundreds to repair. However the current Mk 3 has been a lot more reliable - until now!

[JohnGarth]

Cambelt changed in 2020, but not the water pump as the mileage was low at 13,813. Spark plugs changed in 2019 at a mileage of 12,239. Air filter changed last year at 19,371. The Fabia has been fully serviced annually as per Skoda recommendations with Skoda approved parts at the local Skoda dealer. I usually run it on E10 but it currently has E5 petrol in the tank. Car battery replaced in 2020 with a Halfords 5-year warranty battery, but this doesn't stop it being low in charge of course.

 

Incidentally the picture of the Octavia doesn't tell the full story as I've since fitted front and rear mudflaps. According to the Skoda dealer they don't fit, but they do with a bit of fettling to the mounting holes, as per advice elsewhere on Briskoda.

[JohnGarth]

2 hours ago, nta16 said:

Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

 

Check the voltage of the car battery after being parked up for a couple of hours, if low it could be the cause and you're best to fully recharge the battery using an appropriate battery charger (and maintainer)

 

Talking of batteries, my wife's non-KESSY (thank gawd) fob takes 2025 (20mm wide by 2.5mm deep) the 2032 is 3.2mm deep.

 

Good idea to use a scanner but often it tells you what wrong that you already know and not the cause, good to have a readout though if you want to post it but check the battery voltage anyway as the start/stop is a warning that your battery might have been low for a while unless it's had recent heavy use.

 

Battery voltage was exactly 12.0v after a few hours rest so I've put it on charge. I'm not convinced that's the cause of the Fabia's faults but I will let you know.

[varooom]

3 minutes ago, JohnGarth said:

Battery voltage was exactly 12.0v after a few hours rest so I've put it on charge. I'm not convinced that's the cause of the Fabia's faults but I will let you know.

That's low 30% State of Charge, not very healthy value at all.  It should be 12.5V or close too after such a short time 80% SoC.

[nta16]

Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

 

3 hours ago, JohnGarth said:

Battery voltage was exactly 12.0v after a few hours rest

I'd have put a small bet on it being your battery before but now I'd put a bit more on it being your car battery and I'd stress the fully recharge it with an appropriate battery charger (and maintainer) a 4-amp better than a 6-amp and a 2-amp better than a 4-amp.  The lower the charger the long it'll take so the rare commodities of time and patience are required to fully recharge the battery.  If you can't fully recharge the battery in one go then do it in two goes.

 

Hopefully you will see once the battery is fully recharged and you have driven the car a short distance that you don't need to worry about driving the car.  Given your low mileage use, despite what others might tell you, with the use of an appropriate charger (and maintainer) when required you might still have been on the original factory battery, if not then there might be problems to have prevented this.

 

I'd have another small bet your breakdown people weren't the RAC as they'd have possibly sold you a new battery if you needed one or not, if it was the RAC or your breakdown person knew it wasn't the battery I'd be surprised but I am often wrong.

 

I'd have also put a small bet on your battery not being the factory original without being Mystic Meg.  When you had this battery installed was it a like-for-like replacement, possibly EFB, 59Ah or different, was it 'coded' by Halfords.

 

You may not be aware that a battery may show 12.7V -12.9V when new so as has been put 12.0V is low, best normally to keep the battery above 12.3V depending on when, what, how the readings are done.

 

I'll put what I always put - just because the car starts and the lights seem bright enough it does not mean that the car battery isn't too low in charge for the computers and their programs will throw up all sorts of unexpected issues even before any warning lights or messages.  As you have found by the time you get the warnings it's often too late - and prevention is better than cure.

 

4 hours ago, JohnGarth said:

I'm not convinced that's the cause of the Fabia's faults but I will let you know.

I'm a lot more convinced than you and hope it is the battery as it's an easy resolve but even if it's not having a battery in a good state of charge will be helpful for diagnosis and problem resolution whereas a battery in a low state of charge can hinder or even prevent full diagnosis and problem resolution.

 

If the battery state of charge is the fault then fully charging it once won't be the full resolve, two batteries in 6 years suggest further actions are required to prevent the situation reoccurring, keeping an eye on the battery state of charge and fully recharging when required, possibly looking at consumption on the battery or battery replacement again (I'd put that off with using a charger/maintainer or lots more use of the car and charger when required).

 

For the KESSY keys my guess is that VW, VWSkoda aren't being 100% transparent about possible issues and would probably like to trot out the "nobody else has had problems" as much as possible.  Where is the second key kept? (you shouldn't have a spare but rotate use of a second key)

 

Do let us know how you get on, unlike some I'd not mind if you put I'm wrong and it wasn't the battery but I'd be surprised if you didn't find some improvement on something on the car from increasing 12.0V on the battery to somewhere much nearer full charge.

 

Good luck.

 

[J.R.]

5 hours ago, varooom said:

That's low 30% State of Charge, not very healthy value at all.  It should be 12.5V or close too after such a short time 80% SoC.

It was probably checked after opening the door with the key and then opening the bonnet hence waking up several of the canbus modules, they can easily produce a volt drop of 0.5 volts.

[varooom]

23 minutes ago, J.R. said:

It was probably checked after opening the door with the key and then opening the bonnet hence waking up several of the canbus modules, they can easily produce a volt drop of 0.5 volts.

I test mine quickly and get a nice healthy 12.3V (60%) after one week... higher if tested after 2hrs.

[JohnGarth]

Latest is that the battery voltage is now 12.65v after an overnight charge. As I don't have time for most of today to do any more with the car. I've left it charging at 13.6v. Both readings with the battery disconnected from the car. Battery is a Halfords Advanced AGM 60ah battery bought in 2019 or 2020. I will check late today to see if it's charged any more, then I think I will call the breakdown service to see if they can check the codes before I attempt to start the Fabia. I will also check the charging with the engine running to ensure that's OK.

[nta16]

Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

 

John, up to you of course, depending on what breakdown service you have you might have to be careful what you say as some don't like the client/customer messing with the car as it's their job to mess with it.  I'd not think some charging the battery would be messing with the car but I'm not working at one of those places perhaps under pressure with too many call and not enough staff.

 

Get the battery full charged if you can, but not over charged, do your tests then try starting it up and see how it is and what if and warning lights and messages remain, go for a short drive if any remain and see if anything is left to ring the breakdown service about.  Any hidden error codes from the battery being low can be cleared sometime later as that issue is over.

 

Bear in mind any reading off the battery just after charging will show higher than a reading taken after the battery has been sitting for say 12 or 24 hours later.

 

Charging the battery is only really minutes of easy work but (many) hours of patience.

 

[nta16]

Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

 

As my wife's car was here this morning I thought I'd do a test.  Locked the car left it 10 to 15 minutes then stood next to the passenger door, unlocked and opened the door, pull the bonnet release, lifted and secured the bonnet, put the multimeter probes on the top of the battery posts (battery obviously fully connected up to car) - all done within seconds well before any whirls or clicks which I think are minutes later usually.

 

Reading was 12.40V, left the bonnet up and went off to do chores, came back about 30-35 minutes later took another reading, 12.68V, so call it 0.3V difference for a round figure (on this occasion and conditions).

 

No user consumables are connected or left on just the malicious VW computers festering away I expect, SE spec 2015 Fabia.

 

Edited 20 February, 2023 by nta16
missing word

[JohnGarth]

Our Fabia now languishing at a VAG specialist garage. It has been diagnosed with a "camshaft positioning fault" which I'm assured is not a quick fix. and will be looked at in depth in a few days time. They have ruled out any battery problems.

[nta16]

Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

 

I put my hands up.

 

Sorry to hear this when you put running very rough you meant it, well beyond any battery.

 

Edited 2 March, 2023 by nta16
spelling

[Eccles]

As a matter of interest, why was the cam belt changed at only 13k miles? My garage says not necessary until you have done at least 60k and VAG agrees it seems despite their "recommendation" to change at five years - note it's only a recommendation not a mandatory requirement and based on the fact that after five years some of the cars will have done maybe 80k. My car is now eight years old and done 20k, mechanic looked at the bellt last year and said "good as new".

[JohnGarth]

I understand that cambelts on both our Fabia and Octavia should be changed at 5 years regardless of mileage due to deterioration. It is cheaper than the catastrophic result if a cam belt fails. I have had to replace all tyres on both cars at 4 years due to cracking when there was lots of tread left.

 

The latest news on the Fabia engine is that parts associated with the variable valve timing need replacing as they have excessive wear. We have been told to expect a bill of over £1,000! They will also change the cambelt again as it has to come off as part of the repair. I will ask for a fully detailed invoice which I intend to send off to Škoda Customer Service to see if they will foot some of the bill as I wouldn’t expect a bill as large as this for repairs to a low mileage car. About 10 years ago we owned a Fabia 2 which failed the mot on excessive wear to the suspension at a low mileage, and Škoda paid for most of the bill as the mileage was low, although out of warranty, so fingers and toes crossed!

[Ootohere]

@JohnGarthWas that a Main Dealer that replaced the Cam belt at 5 years and under 14,000 miles.

 

Skoda / VW will surely be wanting to investigate the parts with excessive wear.

Was the car on a Fixed Service regime with the oil & filter changed annually and was it VW504 00 / 507 00 used each time?   5w 30 FS III.

As was what the Recommended oil was back in 2014/2015 when the All New 3rd Generation Fabia was launched.

 

This below was not available in 2015 as far as i know, only much later. 

 

 

Edited 2 March, 2023 by toot

[JohnGarth]

The Fabia has always been main dealer serviced and is on a fixed 12 month service plan. We bought it at 6 months old from a Skoda main dealer as their demonstrator so it hasn't been looked after outside the dealer network until now. I don't know what oil is used. I have never needed to top it up between services, and I do check oil, water and tyre pressures regularly on both our Skodas. The current engine repair is being done at a local VAG specialist instead of the main dealer as the latter couldn't even look at the car for weeks.

 

Perhaps we should think about going to a different brand come replacement time. I've been a biker for more than 40 years and have owned a succession of motorbikes, almost all Hondas, including my current Honda VFR 800 made in 1998 and owned by me since 2002. It's totally brilliant still, and all the Honda bikes have been very reliable and well made. I've also owned 2 Honda-engined Rovers in the past with sweet engines and cracking slick gearboxes.

[rum4mo]

I just wonder if any of this is due to the lack of "good tooling" when that cam belt was replaced back in 2020, ie it seems like new kit has become available to make sure that the cams are correctly, or more accurately positioned when working on the cambelt area?

Or.

There were a very small number of instances where the inlet cam variable timing pulley had ended up with its  bolts holding that assembly together slackening off and so oil escaping onto the belt etc and so these early pulleys needed replacing, but that was only I think. an issue with a small number of very early EA211 1.2TSI 16V engines.

I'm sure that I have checked the assembly part number on the inlet pulley on my wife's 2015 Polo 1.2TSI and its DOB of the engine is 07/05/15 - s/n CJZD498523 , that is info from the label on the engine, is your engine earlier or later than that?

Edited 2 March, 2023 by rum4mo
Changed "securing" to "holding that assembly together"

[J.R.]

4 hours ago, toot said:

Skoda / VW will surely be wanting to investigate the parts with excessive wear.

 

I doubt it, they themselves probably coined the phrase "Excessive wear" in their manual of how to upsell to pigeons, it's on the same page as "brake discs and pads 75% worn"

 

Tha garage will just be replacing as many parts as they can get away with to boost their profits or they don't actually know what has caused the timing error (the earlier belt change sounds probable) and are firing the parts cannon and replacing everything that might be related.

[Ootohere]

@J.R.  I forgot to put in something to identify my Sarcasm. 

 

As it is it would be lovely if a Independent Expert was to be inspecting the parts that are getting replaced. 

 

[JohnGarth]

Today the independent garage said that they have all the new bits they need, costing around £550, plus labour and VAT to make the bill up to about £1,100. They hope to complete the work by the end of next week. They diagnosed a failure of the camshaft pulley so are to replace that plus associated parts, plus fit a new cambelt as this needs to come off as part of the repair. I must admit to first not thinking that the camshaft has a pulley, but of course it must have as otherwise the camshaft wouldn't turn. Pity these car manufacturers have never developed gear-driven camshafts as in my Honda VFR V4 pictured above which gives the engine it's distinctive sound, and the engine just goes on, and on, and on. Mileages of over 250,000 without repair are not unknown. Camchains do wear out (despite complaints about cambelts) and get very rattly as in my old Favorit after 40,000 miles.

 

They said that in their view it was a waste of time complaining to Skoda Customer Service as they are highly unlikely to pay out on an 8-year-old car, especially one repaired by an independent specialist garage.

 

Next plan is to buy a replacement battery for my Octavia which is on it's original Varta battery after more than 7 years, just for peace of mind. I though this would be an easy swap but apparently the car has to be told that it has a new battery which to me is just plain wierd!

[nta16]

3 hours ago, JohnGarth said:

Next plan is to buy a replacement battery for my Octavia which is on it's original Varta battery after more than 7 years, just for peace of mind. I though this would be an easy swap but apparently the car has to be told that it has a new battery which to me is just plain wierd!

If you wanted you could perhaps use an appropriate battery charger and maintainer to restore the battery now and when required as a preventative measure to stop the battery getting too low in the future, then you could perhaps get many more months or perhaps even a year or more out of it.

 

Or to get a few more months out of it so that you can deal with the VW battery  b*ll*cks and farting about in the better weather and when you have the Fabia sorted.

 

Edited 3 March, 2023 by nta16
spelling