Car Park Fires, Transporters / Ships, any fires, an EV,s involved or not thread, were they the cause just there and so made fighting the fire harder.

[Graham Butcher]

33 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Any future planning applications for Battery Recycling Premises might only be approved for locations a bit isolated from other building and not near residential properties.

 

 

 

 

 

At least the ambulance station was just across the other side of the roundabout, that was handy, eh?

[wyx087]

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

It does show the ferocity of these batteries once they catch fire, with the plant still burning on day 2.

Other fuel sources burn just as ferocious and has similar temperature to destroy supporting structure. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_flame_temperature#Common_flame_temperatures

Gasoline: 2,138c

Lithium: 2,438c 

 

Difference is putting them out and problem of re-combustion with lithium batteries. 

[Graham Butcher]

19 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Other fuel sources burn just as ferocious and has similar temperature to destroy supporting structure. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_flame_temperature#Common_flame_temperatures

Gasoline: 2,138c

Lithium: 2,438c 

 

Difference is putting them out and problem of re-combustion with lithium batteries. 

Very true but I don't recall seeing any sign of the ideal conditions for gasoline to reach those temperatures, i.e., a blueish flame with no smoke in those videos did you?

 

Extracted from the Wikipedia page you referenced. 

Note that these are theoretical, not actual, flame temperatures produced by a flame that loses no heat. The closest will be the hottest part of a flame, where the combustion reaction is most efficient. This also assumes complete combustion (e.g. perfectly balanced, non-smoky, usually bluish flame). Several values in the table significantly disagree with the literature[1] or predictions by online calculators.

 

Also as you correctly mentioned, putting them out, with gasoline fires, they are easy to put out quickly (unless you have vast amounts of gasoline as in this case Buncefield fire - Wikipedia)

 

 

[wyx087]

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Very true but I don't recall seeing any sign of the ideal conditions for gasoline to reach those temperatures, i.e., a blueish flame with no smoke in those videos did you?

And neither have we seen ideal lithium burning condition. How sure are you that during the very unlikely event known as battery thermal runaway, it will burn much hotter than petrol/diesel fire?

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

there were quite a few parked in the Liverpool car park and thus contributed to the huge temperatures that destroyed the building fabric, and we already know that Lithium burns far hotter than either petrol or diesel, thus melting the steel reinforcements in the concrete floors.

I also don't see any reason why battery are brought into the equation, when the likelihood of "contributing" is miniscule. As percentage, in 2017, li-on battery vehicle are less than a few % on the UK roads. Statically the 2017 burnt down car park is more likely to not have contained any Li-on battery vehicle (PHEV, BEV).

 

  

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

And neither have we seen ideal lithium burning condition. How sure are you that during the very unlikely event known as battery thermal runaway, it will burn much hotter than petrol/diesel fire?

 

I also don't see any reason why battery are brought into the equation, when the likelihood of "contributing" is miniscule. As percentage, in 2017, li-on battery vehicle are less than a few % on the UK roads. Statically the 2017 burnt down car park is more likely to not have contained any Li-on battery vehicle (PHEV, BEV).

 

  

Firstly, I don't quite understand why you say that the Liverpool was not likely to have Lithium Ion batteries involved, they had been in use in Hybrid cars since at least 2015 and the fire was 31st Dec 2017, meaning that there was roughly 3 years of Hybrid cars registrations and my chart showed over 44,000 in 2015 alone and each year there are more being added. I would be extremely surprised if there were no hybrid cars in the car park at the time. 

 

Granted there were far more caught up in the Luton fire and they were the cause of the collapse of parts of the structure, whereas the Liverpool fire didn't suffer the structural collapse, but did suffer the cooking of the concrete floors leaving the rebars exposed.

 

 

 

The above chart that you posted tells me nothing as there is no key as to what colour represents which type of car.

 

Did you do chemistry at school and play about with Bunsen burners at all? The yellow flames are the coolest flames and also the dirtiest hence the thick black smoke, when the fuel and air are mixed correctly, before being burnt, then the flame is blue and is very noisy, it kind of roars and it is that flame that is hot enough to melt metals etc.

 

 

[wyx087]

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Firstly, I don't quite understand why you say that the Liverpool was not likely to have Lithium Ion batteries involved, they had been in use in Hybrid cars since at least 2015 and the fire was 31st Dec 2017, meaning that there was roughly 3 years of Hybrid cars registrations and my chart showed over 44,000 in 2015 alone and each year there are more being added. I would be extremely surprised if there were no hybrid cars in the car park at the time. 

There are around 32 million cars on the road in 2017. https://www.statista.com/statistics/299972/average-age-of-cars-on-the-road-in-the-united-kingdom/

Let's say 100 thousand li-on cars by 2017, more than double from your data in 2015. That is just 0.31% out of total cars.

More than 1000 cars were involved in the 2017 fire, let's say 1500. So statistically, there will only be 4 li-on equipped cars.

How much damage could 4 small li-on battery contribute, in comparison to fuel in over 1000 fuel tanks?

 

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Granted there were far more caught up in the Luton fire and they were the cause of the collapse of parts of the structure, whereas the Liverpool fire didn't suffer the structural collapse, but did suffer the cooking of the concrete floors leaving the rebars exposed.

Are the building material and structure design similar between the Liverpool car park and Luton airport car park?

Otherwise making this comparison is rather misleading.

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

More info on this fire and how to minimise any fire in car parks.

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

The latest in Car Parks and EV vehicles. Despite what some say about electric vehicles in comparison to diesel and or petrol, the nations fire services and also government are extremely concerned and this the result. I expect that we will see this spreading.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 17:52 by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

Fair enough.   Yes we might see more of this.  Obviously.

 

The Killwinning Fire was at a Battery Recycling Center, not a 'Breakers Yard' 

 

The Dude surely knows what a Breakers Yard is in Scotland being clearly a Scot. 

Edited Saturday at 18:45 by Ootohere

[Graham Butcher]

Yes, Killwinning Fire was at a Battery Recycling Center, not a 'Breakers Yard', I noticed that too. However I expect the point he was trying to make was that the result could be similar to a car park that had a load of EV cars in it, which will be the case in the fullness of time as more and more ICE are sent to the scrapyard and replaced with EV's be they new or 2nd hand ones.

 

The irony is to me at least that the government's own standing in the banning of any EV's in their own Westminster car parks and the Fire Dept in Liverpool, is flying full in the face of their big push towards the electrification of traffic and complete ban on the sales of new ICE in 2035. It sort of will be making drivers of EV's 2nd class citizens by preventing them using current underground or multi story car parks.

 

[wyx087]

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The latest in Car Parks and EV vehicles. Despite what some say about electric vehicles in comparison to diesel and or petrol, the nations fire services and also government are extremely concerned and this the result. I expect that we will see this spreading.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c90zjne2v0jo

 

"temporarily restricted the parking of electric vehicles in one of our smaller car parks while we upgrade its fire sprinkler system."

 

I think this is the correct procedure: identify an emerging risk, do risk assessment, do necessary upgrades, everyone get on with their lives.

 

I expect this will only be a very temporary problem.

[Ootohere]

2nd class citizens they will have to be then.   Poor little citizens.  Paying lots for public charging, public parking, made to walk further from car to where they want to get.    Those that are never going to be an EV driver can happily gloat. 

[Winston_Woof]

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c90zjne2v0jo

 

"temporarily restricted the parking of electric vehicles in one of our smaller car parks while we upgrade its fire sprinkler system."

 

I think this is the correct procedure: identify an emerging risk, do risk assessment, do necessary upgrades, everyone get on with their lives.

 

I expect this will only be a very temporary problem.

Unless it becomes one of of those "New Road Junction Layout Ahead " type signs that never get replaced after years and noone really remembers the old layout ;o)

I mean TBF this doesn't look or feel like a temporary notice



 

[Graham Butcher]

9 hours ago, Ootohere said:

2nd class citizens they will have to be then.   Poor little citizens.  Paying lots for public charging, public parking, made to walk further from car to where they want to get.    Those that are never going to be an EV driver can happily gloat. 

Not a question about gloating but one about ethics and mixed messages! 

[Ootohere]

Messages are not mixed.  Government taking the pith. It is what it is.  Do not cry over others spilt milk.   They are going to take the pith out of those using liquid fuel as well.   Eventually.     Clean air for London and all that.   Take public transport.  

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

 They are going to take the pith out of those using liquid fuel as well.   Eventually.

What do you mean  eventually, they are already doing that 😉

[Winston_Woof]

16 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The latest in Car Parks and EV vehicles. Despite what some say about electric vehicles in comparison to diesel and or petrol, the nations fire services and also government are extremely concerned and this the result. I expect that we will see this spreading.

 

 

There's a further question .


Does that sign apply to all EVs or just BEVs?

I know what the majority of people will take it to mean but surely HEVs & PHEVs also have the same sort of "dangerous" battery in ?

Should the signage be made clearer?

 

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

There's a further question .


Does that sign apply to all EVs or just BEVs?

I know what the majority of people will take it to mean but surely HEVs & PHEVs also have the same sort of "dangerous" battery in ?

Should the signage be made clearer?

 

 

Quite so.

 

Zoe pure EV.

 

Clio full hybrid, lithium ion battery and gubbins of about 100 kgs to work in EV mode at any speed if load quite low.

 

Arkana mild hybrid, incapable of driving on battery power alone, just uses lithium battery for powering electrical system in coast mode ie ICE off, and gentle 10 nm assist for acceleration.

 

So is only the Zoe banned, Zoe and Clio etech or all 3 ?

 

Arkana lithium battery is 0.2 kwh ie tiny thing much smaller than lead acideee battery.

 

Edited Sunday at 12:39 by lol-lol

[wyx087]

8 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

Unless it becomes one of of those "New Road Junction Layout Ahead " type signs that never get replaced after years and noone really remembers the old layout ;o)

I mean TBF this doesn't look or feel like a temporary notice



 

The temporary-ness is completely open to interpretation. Whether you believe the hospital's official statement or your personal view based on a photo of a stuck-on sign.

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

26 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The temporary-ness is completely open to interpretation. Whether you believe the hospital's official statement or your personal view based on a photo of a stuck-on sign.

But it is a sign that people are having to obey.

[lol-lol]

24 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

But it is a sign that people are having to obey.

 

All vehicles are electric.

 

Full motive, partial motive or have electrical systems, even wiesel cars, some of which are hybrid now.

 

If obeyed properly they should be quite few cars in the car park and Euro 7 looks like will kill neatly all cars that are not atleast hybrid.

 

[Stonekeeper]

maybe because the car park is so close to the Hospital Building?

 

[Winston_Woof]

the reality is with all the oxygen and other equipment  (plus all those people foing silly things that people do) there it's probably statistically more likely a fire will start in the hospital then in the car park.........

[Stonekeeper]

7 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

All vehicles are electric.

 

Full motive, partial motive or have electrical systems, even wiesel cars, some of which are hybrid now.

 

If obeyed properly they should be quite few cars in the car park and Euro 7 looks like will kill neatly all cars that are not at least hybrid.

 

 

How?

 

The  changes on ICE are that the diesels will have to meet the Nox limit of the Petrol reached in Euro 6 and the length of time cars have to meet the emissions level will be increased from 5 years to 10

 

 

Londoners will still be able to drive a twenty year old Jaguar  into the ulez zone. Unless Khan moves the goalposts

 

All the other changes will apply to all cars including BEV

 

 

 

 

 

[Winston_Woof]

3 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

How?

 

The  changes on ICE are that the diesels will have to meet the Nox limit of the Petrol reached in Euro 6 and the length of time cars have to meet the emissions level will be increased from 5 years to 10

 

 

Londoners will still be able to drive a twenty year old Jaguar  into the ulez zone. Unless Khan moves the goalposts

 

All the other changes will apply to all cars including BEV

 

 

 

 

 

and the fact that Khan and other exponents want to charge EVs to enter a ULEZ proves its all just a big con trick and sweet fanny adam to do with reducing emissions (sorry that's a different thread isn't it ;o))