19 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher  There are reports of a recall by MINI / BMW 12,535 vehicles, no idea in which countries and if left hand or right hand drive and if it matters.

If it matters if Soft top or hard tops.     

There were 40,000 or so MINI Electric built in Oxford every year as far as i know.  (i read)

And then in the UK there is an actual DVSA Safety Critical recall on a few hundred cars.  459

What is smoke and mirrors about it? 

Smoke and mirrors....software update is a fix.......you said that a seal could be faulty and allow water inside the battery....so BMW are trying to control the narrative and suppress the truth, hence smoke and mirrors.

Maybe the BMW / MINI recall of the 12,535 vehicles are nothing to do with vehicles built to be  UK vehicles. 

 

So since there is that RECALL.  & a DVSA RECALL in the UK things might be clear.

 

.................

What was not clear for a while was the matter over BRAKE issues on new vehicles and people having to try and find out why their new orders were not being supplied.

I have no idea if just ICE / PHEV or EV or all. 

 

 

EDIT.  NORTH AMERICA> 

Edited 29 August, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Jaguar are recalling a load of 2019 I Pace models for yet another software update as a temporary measure to try and stop their cars from self combusting, even though they have already supposed to have the problem fixed by a software update.

 

In the meantime they are telling owners to park them out in the open, away from structures, and also charge them like that as there is a risk of them catching fire on their own even when not on charge. Some that have had a previous software update to stop that, have still caught fire.

 

Jaguar I-Pace Owners Told To Park Outside After 3 Fires Involving Previously Recalled EVs | Carscoops

8 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Maybe the BMW / MINI recall of the 12,535 vehicles are nothing to do with vehicles built to be  UK vehicles. 

 

So since there is that RECALL.  & a DVSA RECALL in the UK things might be clear.

 

.................

What was not clear for a while was the matter over BRAKE issues on new vehicles and people having to try and find out why their new orders were not being supplied.

I have no idea if just ICE / PHEV or EV or all. 

 

 

EDIT.  NORTH AMERICA> 

 

 

BMW Australia has recalled 26,491 examples of certain BMW, Mini and Alpina models sold between 2022 and 2024, citing a potential fault with the braking system.

The affected vehicles are stamped 2022 to 2024 models. BMW Australia has confirmed it temporarily paused deliveries of new vehicles while a software fix was developed, which has now been released to dealers.
 

The recall notice, lodged with the Department of Infrastructure, says: "Due to a manufacturing defect, signal interference may occur within the electronics of the brake system. If the fault occurs, a higher pedal force may be required for braking. The anti-lock braking system and dynamic stability control will also not be available.


https://www.drive.com.au/news/bmw-and-mini-recall-26000-vehicles-in-australia-due-to-braking-concern-stop-sale-lifted/


NB cant find a recall for Mirrors though ;o)

There is a STOP SALE / do not deliver in the UK currently on New Cars.

 

 

 

Edited 30 August, 20241 yr by Ootohere

16 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

More smoke

Well, where there's fire there's smoke.  

5 minutes ago, Paws4Thot said:

Well, where there's fire there's smoke.  

what about smokeless fuel? 🤪

Compare these videos and the info and images.  The first one is very strange IMO.   Not that helpful. 

1st vid.

Good image of a 12v battery.

2nd vid. 

A yellow 2024 on MINI E or SE, nothing to do with the Battery Recall on the previous generation MINI Electric.

3rd vid.

A dude that drives, parks and charges the cars and has a bit more to help others like him to understand what the issue is. On which car.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 September, 20241 yr by Ootohere

@Ootohere I agree, the first video is pointless and is just effectively greenwashing the problem by giving the illusion that it is the main 12v normal car battery that all cars have which is causing the problem, rather than addressing the real issue and being honest with their customer base.

 

A software update is also not the ideal solution that an owner wants either, for that does not resolve the issue and as we all know software is not infallible anyway, given the right sequence of events it can fail.

Going to bite MINI / BMW Dealers in the UK as far as Used cars they have in Stock and future used MINI Electrics residuals. 

They were already getting to be available for pretty low prices.

 

As far as the new Built in China MINI Electrics and the Media wrongly showing the Image of them.  Serves BMW / MINI right for being lazy barstewards as far as any UK Recall Actions

& proper Press Releases.

 

PS

As far as the Other BMW / MINI issue and hold backs on deliveries because of a Brake Issue.

I wonder if they are piling the cars into the UK and still First Registering them early of hand over to get the 22% EV First Registrations.

Customers getting the New cars can do their own thinking over that. 

BMW / MINI UK might move their back end to get the parts in and the cars out.

Edited 8 September, 20241 yr by Ootohere

The road is closed a long time.  Maybe bad damage to the road.  Quite a diversion for traffic for the Ferry port.

We will hear if a BEV on fire.    Certainly not mine which is going into the Dealers later for it's recall work tomorrow. 

 

Glenapp Church is near Glenapp Castle & actually 19 miles south of Girvan and near Ballantrae & Cairnryan which it is between. 

 

 

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Ootohere

No need to wait until tomorrow or whenever to find that out, its here and it was a lorry fire. Not all fires have to be electric, other types of fire can cause just as much havoc given the right circumstances.

 

Lorry bursts into flames as major Scots road remains closed in both directions - Daily Record

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

This is what is happening in China and there are other similar video reports about China who actively suppress reports of fires and other accidents such as bridge, building and even tunnel collapses etc. This report also mentions many residential buildings are not allowing electric cars to be parked in their car parks. 

 

It also claims (I can't read Chinese, so unable to confirm if the signs and text backs up the audio) that there is much corruption from so-called experts in electric cars, making claims that ICE vehicles catch fire far more than electric ones, similar claims are made everywhere to be fair, but I'm not totally convinced by these claims, and it seems that the Chinese citizens are not either.

 

 

On 14/09/2024 at 15:40, Graham Butcher said:

This is what is happening in China and there are other similar video reports about China who actively suppress reports of fires and other accidents such as bridge, building and even tunnel collapses etc. This report also mentions many residential buildings are not allowing electric cars to be parked in their car parks. 

 

It also claims (I can't read Chinese, so unable to confirm if the signs and text backs up the audio) that there is much corruption from so-called experts in electric cars, making claims that ICE vehicles catch fire far more than electric ones, similar claims are made everywhere to be fair, but I'm not totally convinced by these claims, and it seems that the Chinese citizens are not either.

 

 

 

 

it's not just claimed, it's based on data from the insurance industry

 

On 16/09/2024 at 13:31, domhnall said:

 

 

it's not just claimed, it's based on data from the insurance industry

 

What is it that is claimed then?

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

What is it that is claimed then?

I believe you were saying the claim was result of "corruption from so-called exports".

  

On 14/09/2024 at 15:40, Graham Butcher said:

there is much corruption from so-called experts in electric cars, making claims that ICE vehicles catch fire far more than electric ones

 

Let's recap, the said claim is that "ICE vehicles catch fire far more than electric ones", in your exact words.

 

 

Below is one of the "claim" that matches your exact words, the source writes:

 

  "Thatcham Research, the UK motor insurers’ research centre, used the data from the Motor Insurance Anti-Fraud and Theft Register (MIAFTR) and their own data to categorise fire claims by vehicle fuel type"

On 23/11/2023 at 11:18, wyx087 said:

Section 2.6 in the covered car park fire guidance gives similar stat as the Guardian article, with the same caveats such as age of vehicle in the data set. 

 

 

EV likelihood of fire claim need to be ~10x than existing to match diesel. Exactly as pointed out by the Guardian article, Surely this isn't pushing a political narrative  

 

 

I'm not seeing any "corruption from so-called experts in electric cars" in this insurance data set, all I see is hard evidence with my previously noted caveat.

34 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I believe you were saying the claim was result of "corruption from so-called exports".

 

 

 

 

 

Let's recap, the said claim is that "ICE vehicles catch fire far more than electric ones", in your exact words.

 

 

Below is one of the "claim" that matches your exact words, the source writes:

 

  "Thatcham Research, the UK motor insurers’ research centre, used the data from the Motor Insurance Anti-Fraud and Theft Register (MIAFTR) and their own data to categorise fire claims by vehicle fuel type"

 

I'm not seeing any "corruption from so-called experts in electric cars" in this insurance data set, all I see is hard evidence with my previously noted caveat.

I wouldn't have expected anything different, clearly ICE will catch fire more than EV, ICE numbers are far greater than EVs, therefore have a far higher chance of catching fire, nobody is disputing that. ICE cars themselves go back decades and there are many examples of them in daily use that are decades older than EV's.

 

To make a valid comparison, there needs to controlled experiments with similar numbers of both types. So lets go back 10 years, what electric cars were there then and how many, them millions more ICE cars that are 10 years old so yes, the chances of ICE fires in that age group would be many more times higher simply because of the sheer numbers involved.

 

Even today, many more ICE cars are sold than electric cars and there are other factors at play.

 

The one factor that only a fool would attempt to argue otherwise, is that if the traction HV battery is involved then that fire has suddenly become a real problem for the environment, is a lot harder to put out, burns far hotter and fiercer then a petrol or diesel car would burn if the fuel becomes involved, which often is not the case and a HV traction battery on fire is a hazmat situation and requires specialised handling etc.

 

34,000,000 cars in the UK, only 3.5% are pure electric, 1,200,000.

 

How many EVs are there in the UK - EV market statistics 2024 - Zapmap (zap-map.com)

Edited 17 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

Food for thought.

Electric Vehicle Fire on Sunday, September 15, 2024 in Carmel, Indiana.r 15, 2024 in Carmel, Indiana.

 

 

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I wouldn't have expected anything different, clearly ICE will catch fire more than EV, ICE numbers are far greater than EVs, therefore have a far higher chance of catching fire, nobody is disputing that. ICE cars themselves go back decades and there are many examples of them in daily use that are decades older than EV's.

 

To make a valid comparison, there needs to controlled experiments with similar numbers of both types. So lets go back 10 years, what electric cars were there then and how many, them millions more ICE cars that are 10 years old so yes, the chances of ICE fires in that age group would be many more times higher simply because of the sheer numbers involved.

 

Even today, many more ICE cars are sold than electric cars and there are other factors at play.

 

The one factor that only a fool would attempt to argue otherwise, is that if the traction HV battery is involved then that fire has suddenly become a real problem for the environment, is a lot harder to put out, burns far hotter and fiercer then a petrol or diesel car would burn if the fuel becomes involved, which often is not the case and a HV traction battery on fire is a hazmat situation and requires specialised handling etc.

 

34,000,000 cars in the UK, only 3.5% are pure electric, 1,200,000.

 

How many EVs are there in the UK - EV market statistics 2024 - Zapmap (zap-map.com)

None of what you wrote are related to:

 

On 14/09/2024 at 15:40, Graham Butcher said:

corruption from so-called experts in electric cars

Data is data.

It came from reliable source.

 

Said data contains caveats and missing information, but does not mean corruption from publishing body.

 

We've been through this data many times and its short comings have been repeated many times. But it's time to back off from keyboards and have a long and hard think about your false accusation.

20 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

None of what you wrote are related to:

 

Data is data.

It came from reliable source.

 

Said data contains caveats and missing information, but does not mean corruption from publishing body.

 

We've been through this data many times and its short comings have been repeated many times. But it's time to back off from keyboards and have a long and hard think about your false accusation.

None so blind as those who cannot see or want to see any of the real issues at play, fine, if you want to be like of those rats that the pied piper of Hamelin lead away, thats up to you.

 

Yes data is data, and the Titanic was also supposed to be unsinkable, but it did and with a massive loss of life. I wonder just how many of those poor people were on board that ship as opposed to any other ship, because of that claim. Was that data that they based the claim of it being unsinkable on, correct data, very obviously it not was it?

Edited 18 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes data is data, and the Titanic was also supposed to be unsinkable,

I'm very sorry that you have the inability to distinguish between car insurance claims data and compare it against "Titanic is unsinkable" outlandish claim.

 

The data has flaws, but it doesn't completely invalidate it. Or even get discredited by calling it from corrupt source.

On 14/09/2024 at 15:40, Graham Butcher said:

corruption from so-called experts in electric cars

 

 

I'm done here. You clearly have a bone to pick and anything that doesn't conform to your view is "corrupt" or "a narrative" or get called "rats" that get blindly lead away. Very mature.

33 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I'm very sorry that you have the inability to distinguish between car insurance claims data and compare it against "Titanic is unsinkable" outlandish claim.

I apologise to most contributors to this thread, but I feel that this point needs to be made in order that we might return to normal service with people sharing points without one person continually claiming that theirs is the only point.

 

Oh so back 1910, it was not claimed that the Titanic was unsinkable then, the owners actually claimed that it was, and the public believed that it was because of the way that the ship had been designed, and you cannot see any parallels between that claim and the claim about EV's not catching fire as often as ICE cars.

 

Was Titanic Unsinkable_ Why Did People Think It Was_ - History.pdf

Edited 18 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

OT, but.

 

There will be people in world regions not only not taking their pager or 2 way radios with them when going out but also not travelling by EV. 

 

 

Edited 19 September, 20241 yr by Ootohere

On 17/09/2024 at 21:45, Graham Butcher said:

What is it that is claimed then?

I see somene else has already referred you to the UK insurance data, there is alo data from Bedfordshire fire and rescue which shows that 

some 1898 fires in 2019 were from petrol and diesel vehicles and 54 were from EVs.

 

Another study by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency found that EVs are 20 times less likely to catch fire than ICE cars.

 

An additional study by that agency and an American insurer found that just 25 out of 100,000 EVs suffer fire damage.

 

By comparison, 1530 per 100,000 ICE cars experience fire, and hybrid vehicles suffer a much higher risk of 3475 per 100,000.

 

I don't expect any of this will persuade you though because you apparently have knowledge of some supposed corruption of everyone from the firefighters through to the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency. 

Saw this YouTube, not an EV or in a car park, but I thought it was interesting in its own right.

27,702 views Sep 2, 2024 HENLEY GROVE

Car Fire in Henley Grove just off Henleaze Road in Bristol. From what I’ve heard, this was a failed attempt to steal petrol. The car was stolen, the two thieves had filled the car with petrol cans and then proceeded to a petrol station where they filled up all the cans, but didn’t have time to put all the lids on before making their getaway. And so the petrol was sloshing about inside the car and the heat from the exhaust underneath the car ignited the fuel. The driver got out and ran off and the passenger got out with minor burns and was taken to hospital.