9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

WTF??? Just where did you state the above in your earlier post, which I quote below, you thought you stated it but you didn't. The implication in your post was that the Guardian article gave a similar stat as the Guardian article, with the same caveats such as age of vehicle in the data set.

My post came directly after root's post with papers attached.

My post clearly said section numbering and paper's name.

My original post said Guardian article game similar figures to the UK OZEV covered car park guidance paper.

No where in my post, which you quoted, stated "Guardian article gave a similar stat as the Guardian article".

 

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I never said anything else, in fact I think I have always stated that most car fires do not include or originate from the type of fuel being used,

No, you did not always state car fires do not originate from type of fuel used.

You said you don't believe in those figures and the sole reason you gave was how flammable the fuel is when it was tested by a lit match.

You did not allude to any other possible reason for vehicle fire anywhere in that post.

In case you forgot, this is the entirety of your post:

22 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Personally I don't believe those figures, have you ever tried to set diesel on fire? It is very difficult whereas petrol will happily take you face off if you go anywhere near with a lit match, diesel will is more inclined to extinguish a match if you put a lit match on a pool of diesel. 

 

 

 

 

If you really don't want to believe statical figures from 5 different sources stating similar things........

Graham, how many times on this thread alone forgetting all the others have you said words similar to "thats it, I will not be saying any more on the subject"?

 

Any chance of you ever walking the walk?

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Graham, how many times on this thread alone forgetting all the others have you said words similar to "thats it, I will not be saying any more on the subject"?

 

Any chance of you ever walking the walk?

I'm discussing what I think is a biased report by it stating that a diesel car has the highest chance of catching fire, which seems to suggest that the fuel itself is the cause of many fires which I cannot accept. It seems as if the world is just too willing to point fingers at diesels, when the most volatile fuel currently in popular use is petrol, then diesel followed by electric. 

 

There are more petrol cars on the planet then there are diesel and they out number electric cars. Given that all cars, regardless of the means of power all share common items, electrics, carpets, seats, plastics etc and have people inside them that maybe smoke, use power cords to power add on devices, phones etc all of which are capable of starting fires, to say nothing at all about the possibilities of fires starting through bodged DIY electrical installations for after market add-ons. 

 

When it comes to car fires, around 95% of them are caused by faulty electrics, and often it is a DIY job with poor cable routing, undersized cables etc that are the source of fire or poor maintenance, the fuel itself is not a major contributor.

 

 

Briskoda has the threads linked before in this section of Skoda TDi,s going on fire.

Parked cars, serviced cars, unexpected fires, all fires are un-expected unless the person is setting the vehicle on fire.

@wyx087 That is just where you are wrong, you choose to decide that I was blaming batteries for fires.

 

All I have implied is that they are a significant major hazard in the event of them going into thermal runaway following damage to them, that is not present with ICE cars which we have had decades of experience of handling them in a fire situation.

 

Batteries burn at far higher intensity and temperatures than petrol or diesel, can send flying firebombs around and even starving them of oxygen which is the normal method of dealing with oil fuels and foam, CO2 or powder is the normal method of dealing with oil fires, but has zero effect on them as they produce their own oxygen when they reach that critical temperature.

 

Petrol Fire Extinguishers - What's the Best Type for Ignited Fuel? (safeworkers.co.uk)

12 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Briskoda has the threads linked before in this section of Skoda TDi,s going on fire.

Parked cars, serviced cars, unexpected fires, all fires are un-expected unless the person is setting the vehicle on fire.

What about petrol cars? 

32 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm discussing what I think is a biased report by it stating that a diesel car has the highest chance of catching fire, which seems to suggest that the fuel itself is the cause of many fires which I cannot accept. It seems as if the world is just too willing to point fingers at diesels, when the most volatile fuel currently in popular use is petrol, then diesel followed by electric. 

 

There are more petrol cars on the planet then there are diesel and they out number electric cars. Given that all cars, regardless of the means of power all share common items, electrics, carpets, seats, plastics etc and have people inside them that maybe smoke, use power cords to power add on devices, phones etc all of which are capable of starting fires, to say nothing at all about the possibilities of fires starting through bodged DIY electrical installations for after market add-ons. 

 

When it comes to car fires, around 95% of them are caused by faulty electrics, and often it is a DIY job with poor cable routing, undersized cables etc that are the source of fire or poor maintenance, the fuel itself is not a major contributor.

 

 

 

I guess from your unconnected lengthy outpouring that the answer to my question is never!

 

In which case would you please stop saying "I will not say any more on the subject" before continuing without even pausing for breath.

@Graham Butcher?

What about them?

If there are petrol ones that have gone on fire because of the battery, wiring or other reasons they will be here to find, i have not read any.

26 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Briskoda has the threads linked before in this section of Skoda TDi,s going on fire.

Parked cars, serviced cars, unexpected fires, all fires are un-expected unless the person is setting the vehicle on fire.

Hmm, I'm not finding any such threads for either TDI or TSI 

I linked 3 TDI ones in a thread in this section in the past.

 

I can find ones just like an easy thing using key words for 2 TDI and maybe 2 petrols.

 

 

Edited 24 November, 20232 yr by Rooted

40 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Briskoda has the threads linked before in this section of Skoda TDi,s going on fire.

Cite needed.

Always a doubting Thomas about.

 

People who posted in the threads might remember they did...

 

Does nobody just look at the forum or use a search?

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/511114-my-skoda-octavia-mk3-got-on-fire

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/457559-octavia-diesel-vrs-thermal-incident

 

Edited 24 November, 20232 yr by Rooted

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 That is just where you are wrong, you choose to decide that I was blaming batteries for fires.

No, I did not choose anything. You are completely wrong in reading my comments.

 

I posted stats about car fires, no mention of how fire started, only grouped by  fuel type.

I pointed out where the data came from, because you seems to be confused between the Guardian article and UK OZEV paper.

I also paraphrased your earlier post in a summary, which directly contradicts what you've later posted. Something you had not disputed.

 

You choose to respond to a statistic that groups car fires by fuel type.

You choose to respond with "diesel won't burn with a lit match" type of response.

You choose to ask me why the confused reaction face.

 

You have now chosen to re-direct at battery thermal runaway.

You have now chosen to change the subject. Despite you know full well the statistics themselves are not related to how batteries burn.

You have now once again decided to ignore cars as an emergent system.

 

Therefore, my conclusion is you cannot accept those statistics that came from 4 countries and 1 company, all saying the similar thing: EV fire risk are very low, it has room to be multiple times higher than current stats before its fire risk is higher than petrol/diesel car.

 

 

 

First you were in denial: "not in my view a well-rounded and balanced article at all and is designed to continue pushing the political narrative https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/517208-car-park-fires-transporters-ships-any-fires-an-evs-involved-or-not-thread-were-they-the-cause-just-there-and-so-made-fighting-the-fire-harder/?do=findComment&comment=5803731

Then you had anger, overreacting to a simple reaction button as though you must defend diesel fuel https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/517208-car-park-fires-transporters-ships-any-fires-an-evs-involved-or-not-thread-were-they-the-cause-just-there-and-so-made-fighting-the-fire-harder/?do=findComment&comment=5804511

Followed by bargaining, writing lots of text to comfort yourself: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/517208-car-park-fires-transporters-ships-any-fires-an-evs-involved-or-not-thread-were-they-the-cause-just-there-and-so-made-fighting-the-fire-harder/?do=findComment&comment=5804587

Looks like now you are depressed and want to bring other people down with you, not reading properly.

I can only hope you reach the final stage of your grief. 😜

33 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Always a doubting Thomas about.

 

People who posted in the threads might remember they did...

 

Does nobody just look at the forum or use a search?

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/511114-my-skoda-octavia-mk3-got-on-fire

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/457559-octavia-diesel-vrs-thermal-incident

 

Arh, yes, I remember these now, I even commented on them at the time. I was actually searching using the terms TSI and also TDI fire and drew blanks each time. Given the time lapse in the thermal incident (blue Octavia) I would suspect either a major electrical fault, or an arsonist was the culprit.

 

The white one, also as you yourself commented at the time, was most certainly electrical related as bonnet clearly shows the main heat was in the area of the battery / fusebox / glovebox. I don't know if the fusebox on that particular model is located behind the glove box (it is on my Mk3 Superb), but there is also a fuse/relay box located close to the battery in the engine compartment.

 

So it would in my view be wrong to put the blame on the cars being diesel powered, they could also equally have been powered by petrol (these were diesel though) as the electrical parts are in the same locations.

@wyx087 Good grief, what a load of BS.

 

I have never denied diesel can burn, and I don't feel that I have to defend diesel. I'm merely pointing out the obvious as a person who has been involved with diesels for 59 years, so I think I can speak with some experience of the subject.

 

As for the rest of your claims about me, they are completely wrong.

 

My whole point since we started this discussion weeks ago was about EV batteries going into thermal runaway and how if that happens, it is terrible news for these in the vicinity because of the toxic gases, the rocket like flames that can come from them and how they can cause buildings to fail structurally due to the immense heat they generate, and conventional fire fighting methods are incapable of controlling them. This does not happen normally unless the batteries have become compromised is some way, though. Such events will become more common place as more ICE cars are scraped, and we adopt more BEVs, fact.

 

This latest flare up was the result of a report I posted about reported problems with Jeep 4Es and Renault Zoe, this is just how much you defend against anything EV related if it could be negative. Me I know cars can and do catch fire, like I told you before, I have been a fireman, so I'm not without experience either, how about you?

 

Now perhaps we can get back to normal programming?

 

Without starting another long thread on the subject, I would love to have your thoughts on this article please, in particular the London Fire Brigade findings and I quote

"Looking at the London Fire Brigade data, that would suggest an incident rate of 0.04% for petrol and diesel car fires, while the rate for plug-in vehicle is more than double at 0.1%. So far this year, there have been 1,021 petrol and diesel fires and 27 EV fires in the capital."

 

Vehicle fire data suggests higher incident rate for EVs (fleetnews.co.uk)

 

Edited 24 November, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

16 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

This latest flare up was the result of a report I posted about reported problems with Jeep 4Es and Renault Zoe, this is just how much you defend against anything EV related if it could be negative.

On the contrary, this latest flare up is because you feel the need to defend diesel. 
 

This is completely unrelated to Zoe battery venting positions. I saw an article making a very valid point, you shot it down. I saw similar stat from root attached guidance paper, you decide you need to talk about how diesels couldn’t catch fire from lit match, as though it is relatable. 

I don’t have fire fighting experience, but I do have scientific and engineering background and know when to start believe publications. (Agreeable data from multiple sources) 

39 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

On the contrary, this latest flare up is because you feel the need to defend diesel. 
 

This is completely unrelated to Zoe battery venting positions. I saw an article making a very valid point, you shot it down. I saw similar stat from root attached guidance paper, you decide you need to talk about how diesels couldn’t catch fire from lit match, as though it is relatable. 

I don’t have fire fighting experience, but I do have scientific and engineering background and know when to start believe publications. (Agreeable data from multiple sources) 

 

Zoe lithium traction battery does not vent gas when charging or discharging during normal operation, only its lead acid battery like other cars will be doing that.

 

Traction battery has an emergency vent, like if the whole cars was being boiled by an ICE car in the adjacent parking space leaking fuel whilst it was on fire but that is just a safety feature which most EVs would not use in their entire working life time.

 

Edited 24 November, 20232 yr by lol-lol

Oh good grief so now you are joining in and dismissing the experts who are saying that they do have a problem. Oh and for the record, the traction batteries do NOT vent during charging, that was never claimed, they only vent when they go wrong😒 as the experts explain. 

@wyx087 So you are the only one with a scientific and engineering background then 😖

14 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 So you are the only one with a scientific and engineering background then 😖

Well, you certainly are not showing to have this background with the way you posted earlier. 
 

I’m not going to respond further on this matter. There is nothing to be gained with boasting unverifiable credentials on an anonymous forum. 

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

Well, you certainly are not showing to have this background with the way you posted earlier. 
 

I’m not going to respond further on this matter. There is nothing to be gained with boasting unverifiable credentials on an anonymous forum. 

Oh good, peace is restored. 

And I was so looking forward to witnessing end stage grief!

 

I have a feeling that unlike you Graham when wyx087 says he is not going to respond any further that is what he will do or he will at least pause for breath.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh good grief so now you are joining in and dismissing the experts who are saying that they do have a problem. Oh and for the record, the traction batteries do NOT vent during charging, that was never claimed, they only vent when they go wrong😒 as the experts explain. 

 

That is what I said.

 

Please state your qualifications ?

 

I'll start.

BSc including thermodynamics. 2-1 honours obtained.

Also Mech Eng OND with distinction in thermodynamics and 4 year apprenticeship in Marine Engineering and practical in world's largest diesel engines.

 

And you ?

 

He lit rags to warm up the fuel tanks of diesel buses before they went out on cold mornings and swept the floor.

 

You only held your breath for 30 minutes, you let me down 😒

24 minutes ago, J.R. said:

He lit rags to warm up the fuel tanks of diesel buses before they went out on cold mornings and swept the floor.

 

You only held your breath for 30 minutes, you let me down 😒

 

Mechanics not Engineers.

God help us.