2014 Octavia Scout Mk III 4x4 issues

[dominodolmio]

Hi, I recently bought a second hand 2014 Octavia Scout Mk III - an awesome car in great condition except for one thing... the 4x4 isn't working as I expected.  It's currently back with the dealer (not Skoda garage) being investigated but yesterday I had a bit of a concerning call from them to say that they thought the 4x4 was working ok and that it's not a permanent AWD and you may have to have the ESP switched off or going faster (or slower?!) for the rear wheels to decide to kick in.  Nonsense I said, but here I am double checking.  I have taken it off road near my home in mud and on gravel, and when the front wheels lose grip, the rears do nothing at all. My understanding of the Haldex Gen 5 is that as soon as the front lose traction drive is sent to the rear, regardless of speed and driving mode - can someone tell me what is definitely correct? I've attached here a video showing me going nowhere! 

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 April by dominodolmio

[skomaz]

Yep - that's not working!

 

The older systems did require a small amount of wheelspin before the rears would kick in but the newer ones are pre-engaged a small %age and predictive so shoudl be kicking in fine.

 

The first thing to check would be the haldex pump / filter / oil etc.

[dominodolmio]

Thanks for confirming @skomaz, that’s a relief to know and gives me the confidence to tell them to put it right

Edited 17 April by dominodolmio

[Ootohere]

@dominodolmio   Welcome.

When in the dealership ask the wise guy / gal how you would actually switch of the ESP on your car without plugging it in?

 

They might be in for a bit of expense to actually get this working. Not just an oil change and filter clean out and pump clean up.

Maybe a pump, maybe a control panel, maybe anything. 

 

Has the car got a service history,  Haldex services every 30,000miles / 3 years or sooner. When was the last service? 

[skomaz]

Bear in mind also that, as far as I am aware, the haldex system doesn't flag any dash errors, so the first thing you know about it not working as, as you've found, when it doesn't work.

 

This is a really useful site generally and this page especially in terms of fault finding:

 

VW Audi Generation 5 Haldex Fault Finding Repair Guide – Haldex Parts and ECU Repairs by Auto Fault Finder Ltd (haldexrepairs.co.uk)

[dominodolmio]

Thanks @Rooted, the car has history but not enough to confirm Haldex serviced that regularly. Last service was in November (I took it to Skoda dealer just after buying as I didn't trust the used dealer much based on what they hadn't done that they said they were going to...) but before that it had been a couple of years and 40k.

 

The crazy thing about this is that as soon as I picked it up, I told them there was a problem (I got stuck) and EVENTUALLY last month after several visits they agreed there was an issue and to sort it out. As they don't have their own workshop, they took it somewhere and had a reconditioned whole rear transfer box put in - it took them 3.5 weeks to get the car back to me.  

 

As soon as I got it back, I tested the 4x4 and didn't work, looked underneath and found that the shiny reconditioned unit had soldering paste on it and a part of one of the 'fins' missing.  Naturally, I took it back and told them what I thought and in fairness, it got escalated by their customer service team (quite rightly).

 

They have now taken it to another workshop, who called me yesterday, and whilst he clearly didn't know how the Haldex should operate, he was very open to listening to me and shocked when he looked underneath, as by now the driveshaft seals were leaking liquid and the main seal was breaking up.  In short, a joke, and he went back to tell the selling dealership this.  That was yesterday and I'm yet to hear back again which is why I wanted to be 100% sure that what I was saying was correct and the rear wheels should have drive in those conditions.  

 

Thanks to you and @skomaz I now am - thanks for the link to the haldexrepairs.co.uk page btw, I came across this yesterday and sent it to the workshop. Unfortunately, this is all taking place in Spain where I live and so he was going to use Google translate so let's hope it did a good job!

 

[dominodolmio]

Not sure if I need to do anything as my comment is hidden pending approval?

[J.R.]

4 hours ago, dominodolmio said:

I had a bit of a concerning call from them to say that they thought the 4x4 was working ok and that it's not a permanent AWD and you may have to have the ESP switched off or going faster (or slower?!) for the rear wheels to decide to kick in.  Nonsense I said,

 

Quite right, garage BS101 and not even a good attempt, worthy of 1 out of 10 at most.

 

I do like the idea of the rear wheels having consciousness and making the decision though 😁

[Ootohere]

@dominodolmio  My opinion of them is not hidden. 

[dominodolmio]

Hi, me again, the saga continues... the second hand car dealer is telling me that the supplier of the rear differential case with the solder paste on it, says it is acceptable. Apparently there was a hole (drilled by the sounds of it) which was then sealed with the paste.  They are arguing it is fine as it is and my point is that, yes, today it's fine, tomorrow even, but in a few years it may not be, then it's my problem not theirs.  Picture below of the case & paste - any thoughts @skomaz @Rooted ??  Much appreciated

 

[J.R.]

I would be more concerned about the reported leaking driveshaft and propshaft seals.

 

I dont see any evidence of leakage on the photograph.

 

The damage looks like it was sustained in the salvage yard from the donor vehicle being lifted.

 

The "drilling" will be more BS101.

Edited 24 April by J.R.

[dominodolmio]

Thanks @J.R. 

 

I took this as soon as I got the car back last time and the leaking hadn't started yet, that came later!  The good news is they are replacing all the seals with OEM ones and also working on getting the 4x4 working - at the moment they think it is a software coding issue (wasn't set up after the change) and if that doesn't work they are apparently going to send it to the main dealer.

 

As for the damaged casing, yes, that could well be how it sustained the damage but I'm still concerned the paste won't last...

[J.R.]

To my knowledge VAG do not sell seals or bearings for the 4x4 differential, the bearings are standard size but from my research the few people who do rebuild them have to be very careful with the existing seals as they have to resuse them not having found any replacements.

 

It does not sound like a "fully reconditioned unit" but one from a scrapyard that has been jet-washed, try even finding a company that repairs them let alone "fully reconditions" them, I think it is likely yet more BS101.

 

I'm shocked to hear that despite having replaced the combined differential and Haldex that you still do not have 4 wheel drive, if only their mechanical competence matched their BS101.

 

I understand your concerns re the epoxy repair but it seems to be taking your eye off the ball from the much more important issue of the 4x4 still not functioning.

 

Are you still within your rights to reject the vehicle? That might focus their attention, it sounds like it has already cost them a lot of money, maybe they will cut their losses, take it back  and unload it onto the next pigeon

Edited 24 April by J.R.

[skomaz]

Just following up on the point @J.R. has made - I agree - the fundamental issue is the differential is not fit for purpose if it is leaking, regardless of the hole, and clearly you still have a non-functioning 4x4 system.  Personally, I wouldn't be happy with a second hand differential that has had a 'hole drilled i it' either.

 

I'd therefore be pushing for another replacement differential and for them to fully sort the 4x4 system.

 

They've already had one go at fixing it and have failed so I think it's now a case of rejecting the car or taking some legal advice on what to do next.

Edited 24 April by skomaz

[Warrior193]

5 hours ago, J.R. said:

To my knowledge VAG do not sell seals or bearings for the 4x4 differential, the bearings are standard size but from my research the few people who do rebuild them have to be very careful with the existing seals as they have to resuse them not having found any replacements.

 

It does not sound like a "fully reconditioned unit" but one from a scrapyard that has been jet-washed, try even finding a company that repairs them let alone "fully reconditions" them, I think it is likely yet more BS101.

 

I'm shocked to hear that despite having replaced the combined differential and Haldex that you still do not have 4 wheel drive, if only their mechanical competence matched their BS101.

 

I understand your concerns re the epoxy repair but it seems to be taking your eye off the ball from the much more important issue of the 4x4 still not functioning.

 

Are you still within your rights to reject the vehicle? That might focus their attention, it sounds like it has already cost them a lot of money, maybe they will cut their losses, take it back  and unload it onto the next pigeon

I'm wondering if that epoxy repair is actually hiding a crack in the casing suffered when the fin was broken off.

[varaderoguy]

The HALDEX 5 system is a good system as long as the fluid and filter in the transfer box is changed every 20k miles (and not 40k as recommended). Basically a lot of time the HALDEX system fails due to the pump trying to overcome the pressure of the fluid and failing due to a dirty filter. Now what happens is that when this occurs, it *does not* throw a code (ask me how I know - see my posting on this when I owned my 2019 Scout). So...you are left with no engagement on the 4 wheel drive system. It cost about £160 to get it done every 20k.

 

What they don't tell you is *how* to engage the HALDEX 5 box. You have to loose traction on the front wheels for the system to engage. The garage is right when they say it is not a permanent 4x4 system.

[skomaz]

15 hours ago, varaderoguy said:

The HALDEX 5 system is a good system as long as the fluid and filter in the transfer box is changed every 20k miles (and not 40k as recommended). Basically a lot of time the HALDEX system fails due to the pump trying to overcome the pressure of the fluid and failing due to a dirty filter. Now what happens is that when this occurs, it *does not* throw a code (ask me how I know - see my posting on this when I owned my 2019 Scout). So...you are left with no engagement on the 4 wheel drive system. It cost about £160 to get it done every 20k.

 

What they don't tell you is *how* to engage the HALDEX 5 box. You have to loose traction on the front wheels for the system to engage. The garage is right when they say it is not a permanent 4x4 system.

 

The video the OP posted clearly shows the front wheels slipping and no engagement of the rears...

[Ootohere]

@varaderoguyit is over a decade since Skoda had a 4 year / 40,000 miles Service Schedule.

That changed after VW went to 30,000 miles and then Skoda went 30,000 miles / 3 years.

[J.R.]

Mine had done 79K miles and never been serviced, loads of schmoo on filter but no more than some of you who do frequent low mileage Haldex services.

 

I have done another 53K miles and its still functioning correctly, I have been saying for ages that I must do it again but have so much other more important stuff going on like a roof above my head.

 

It will be interesting to see how the filter looks this time.

 

Re the OP, it sounds like the selling dealer has no idea other than competence in BS101 and that they and ultimately the OP have been taken for a ride by the transmission specialist who has removed a perfectly functioning differential needing at worst a service and a new Haldex pump and replaced it with one from a breakers yard that still does not engage the 4WD.

[varaderoguy]

4 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@varaderoguyit is over a decade since Skoda had a 4 year / 40,000 miles Service Schedule.

That changed after VW went to 30,000 miles and then Skoda went 30,000 miles / 3 years.

Yes, because loads of people were getting pump failures and getting them replaced under warranty. 3years/30k miles seems a reasonable compromise though. Still recommend 20k based on my Scout and 1.5 years of motoring. My Skoda dealer were extremely surprised how dirty it was.

[varaderoguy]

4 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

The video the OP posted clearly shows the front wheels slipping and no engagement of the rears...

Fantastic...sorry....my bandwidth isn't good so didn't see the video but if the fronts are slipping then rears should definitely kick in.

[J.R.]

The front wheels dont need to slip for the Haldex coupling to engage in many circumstances where the controller does pre-emptive engagement.

 

The one I experienced multiple times today was towing a heavily loaded tipping trailer (all up weight about 2 tonnes) up a muddy slope where the digger has just been laying sewage pipes in the rain, I pulled away very gently to maximise the traction and each and every time the 4wd was engaged without any slippage of the front wheels, the tyre tracks bear this out.

 

It engaged due to the calculation of torque being applied using inputs from the engine revs, throttle opening, wheel speed, clutch position sensor and accelerometers, in this instance probably the first 2 being the dominant ones, it knew a lot of torque was being transmitted but the vehicle was barely moving and engaged the Haldex before a front wheel span.

 

If I pull away madly fast across a wet junction with the steering straight ahead then I can feel a front wheel slip before the Haldex cuts in, if I pull away a little more progressively modulating the throttle and clutch as if the vehicle was FWD the Haldex cuts in but you dont feel it as there was no front wheel slippage.

 

The same manouevre turning right onto the main road from my road will have the Haldex pre-emptively engaged because the steering is turned to the right, there I can pull away like a Hoon with no front wheel slippage.

[dominodolmio]

Hi all, I really appreciate the information you're all providing here. My last post is still hidden awaiting approval, let's see if this one gets through. So I just picked the car up as they said the 4x4 was now working and exactly the same thing is happening as before in the video. I just managed to speak to the actual mechanic who did it and tested it, and he was in a muddy field and said it pulled him straight out 8 times in a row. We are meeting up with the car next week to test it thoroughly - he's a good guy (although clearly doesn't know a thing about Haldex) but at least he's trying and at the moment I'm not having to go through the nightmare used car dealer. We'll see next week!

[J.R.]

Hooking up to VCDS or whatever Multi-Marque diagnostic gear the mechanic uses and looking at the live data will immediately tell you if the Haldex is being commanded, if it is and the front wheel(s) is/are spinning wildly and the vehicle not moving then there is most likely a pump failure.

 

I am hoping that it is not being commanded as that would likely be a simple and easier fix.

[J.R.]

I can see from the video that the EDL is working (the snatching rotation of the RH front wheel) that would be enough to drag the vehicle out of a muddy field on the flat, take the guy to where you shot the video.

 

Are you sure by going along with all this you are not shooting yourself in the foot and losing the right to rejection?