12 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well clearly they have to do something and do it pretty quickly, especially if they intend to revert the deadline to 2030 for all new cars, which will leave a massive black hole in the coffers.

The perks that EV drivers currently enjoy cannot be continued much longer because of the massive inequality between EV and ICE drivers, both types of car still use the same roads and we all every single one of us still expect the same level of public services so it is grossly unfair to ICE drivers to keep on stumping up the ante to pay for it all, as we already pay the lions share of the costs and it is creating a 2 tier system, of have and have-nots.

 

In HMRC we would report to government not just how much we collected from the various tax types but how much it cost to collect those taxes.

 

Collecting Excise Duty on hydrocarbons is the most efficient tax of all.  A small number of staff collect the £25B in hydrocarbon excise duties.  This will fall as there are less diesel and petrol cars on the road of course.  Whilst there is looking like being about a 9% rise in the energy cap prices on October 1st there would be a rise in VAT revenue on the that electrical supply but it looks like more and more people are installing solar and therefore the will be importing less energy from the national grid and paying the VAT on it.

 

As I said above the tax has to be collectable and the UK government cannot the electricity people make themselves from solar.  They could raise the vat rate on the supply of electricity to homes and that will raise much more revenue in the winter.  The 5% rate of energy supply could move to 6,7,8, 9, 10, both 8 and 10% has been the VAT rate previously.  Of course this hit everyone and especially in the winter and with winter allowance being means tested I have heard with much more power of the government to get energy companies to supply the winter fuel allowance rather than supply it to the royal families and other super rich. 

 

Fuel duty has not kept up with inflation and it really should or even better have a duty and VAT controlling mechanism which keeps diesel and petrol say between £1.50 and £1.60 a litre and this range is index linked, maybe slightly less for Central and North Devon, Cornwall, West Wales and Northern Scotland where locals may deserve cheaper petrol and they do not pollute towns and cities.   Tax can be very flexible and targeted but it needs a bit of imagination and blue sky thinking to be as fair as possible whilst help protect the environment as well as refill our depleted coffers.

 

I do not believe pay per mile will work as people will use the motorways less and drive through Cotswold villages and the like to take a shorter route, that will not go down well.

 

Edited 20 August, 202420 Aug by lol-lol

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

In HMRC we would report to government not just how much we collected from the various tax types but how much it cost to collect those taxes.

 

Collecting Excise Duty on hydrocarbons is the most efficient tax of all.  A small number of staff collect the £25B in hydrocarbon excise duties.  This will fall as there are less diesel and petrol cars on the road of course.  Whilst there is looking like being about a 9% rise in the energy cap prices on October 1st there would be a rise in VAT revenue on the that electrical supply but it looks like more and more people are installing solar and therefore the will be importing less energy from the national grid and paying the VAT on it.

 

As I said above the tax has to be collectable and the UK government cannot the electricity people make themselves from solar.  They could raise the vat rate on the supply of electricity to homes and that will raise much more revenue in the winter.  The 5% rate of energy supply could move to 6,7,8, 9, 10, both 8 and 10% has been the VAT rate previously.  Of course this hit everyone and especially in the winter and with winter allowance being means tested I have heard with much more power of the government to get energy companies to supply the winter fuel allowance rather than supply it to the royal families and other super rich. 

 

Fuel duty has not kept up with inflation and it really should or even better have a duty and VAT controlling mechanism which keeps diesel and petrol say between £1.50 and £1.60 a litre and this range is index linked, maybe slightly less for Central and North Devon, Cornwall, West Wales and Northern Scotland where locals may deserve cheaper petrol and they do not pollute towns and cities.   Tax can be very flexible and targeted but it needs a bit of imagination and blue sky thinking to be as fair as possible whilst help protect the environment as well as refill our depleted coffers.

 

I do not believe pay per mile will work as people will use the motorways less and drive through Cotswold villages and the like to take a shorter route, that will not go down well.

 

I'm curious.

As an employee of HMRC are you allowed to discuss potential future (or current) potential  Government strategies publically?

I know a friends wife I had years ago worked for HMRC Newport and they always had to be very careful about what they posted online(or even discussed in person).

Anyways back to "I do not believe pay per mile will work as people will use the motorways less and drive through Cotswold villages and the like to take a shorter route, that will not go down well." , there may well be a small subset of people who will do their best to minimise their expenditure however I rather suspect the additional time required (and that is something that would increase if more people skipped the motorways) would keep most motorists on the routes they take already.

 

25 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

I rather suspect the additional time required (and that is something that would increase if more people skipped the motorways) would keep most motorists on the routes they take already.

I agree more people are time poor & income rich than are time rich & income poor, so most people will still favour the quicker route (which sometimes in Summer due to Grockels can be the non-motorway or non-dual carriageway route! - I've seen the M3 queued all the way from Southampton back to Camberley).

Edited 20 August, 202420 Aug by PetrolDave

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I do not believe pay per mile will work as people will use the motorways less and drive through Cotswold villages and the like to take a shorter route, that will not go down well.

 

Why won't it work in the Cotswolds and other rural areas, cameras have been seen being installed around villages etc. and has been reported on by one of the "controversial"  YouTubers already.

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Why won't it work in the Cotswolds and other rural areas, cameras have been seen being installed around villages etc. and has been reported on by one of the "controversial"  YouTubers already.

 

Easy to still get captured by the ANPR cameras but unless one is charged differently for different roads then why not take the sorter A and B road route rather than motorway.

 

Less miles on the car, the pay per mile hopefully, siuts EVs as they are better in towns, villages and non motorways.

 

Only problem is claiming the longer route on one's mileage claim but the system having proof one took the more direct route. Going to be a killer for claiming the longer distances !

 

4 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

I'm curious.

As an employee of HMRC are you allowed to discuss potential future (or current) potential  Government strategies publically?

I know a friends wife I had years ago worked for HMRC Newport and they always had to be very careful about what they posted online(or even discussed in person).

Anyways back to "I do not believe pay per mile will work as people will use the motorways less and drive through Cotswold villages and the like to take a shorter route, that will not go down well." , there may well be a small subset of people who will do their best to minimise their expenditure however I rather suspect the additional time required (and that is something that would increase if more people skipped the motorways) would keep most motorists on the routes they take already.

 

Was an employee of HMCE until offered double bubble to work for ones of the big six accountancy/consultancy firms.

 

One is still cover by the Official Secrets Act, as amended, even as an ex employee of course.

 

In the 80s the OSA was amended to include not to tell anyone, civil service or not, about "anything they do no need to know", very wide brief.

 

I think it was fellow Plymouth girl Sarah Tisdale who told about the cruise missile storage at Greenham Common that tightened things up.

 

So many good stories. Working with the SBS, the Investigation Division and as we have more powers than the police, ahh fun days, mostly not well paid except when on Cutter and preventive duties but a good pension compared to trying to save for a decent private "equity" based pension !

 

3 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Was an employee of HMCE until offered double bubble to work for ones of the big six accountancy/consultancy firms.

 

One is still cover by the Official Secrets Act, as amended, even as an ex employee of course.

 

In the 80s the OSA was amended to include not to tell anyone, civil service or not, about "anything they do no need to know", very wide brief.

 

I think it was fellow Plymouth girl Sarah Tisdale who told about the cruise missile storage at Greenham Common that tightened things up.

 

So many good stories. Working with the SBS, the Investigation Division and as we have more powers than the police, ahh fun days, mostly not well paid except when on Cutter and preventive duties but a good pension compared to trying to save for a decent private "equity" based pension !

 

My wife falls into that can of worms as well. 

16 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Easy to still get captured by the ANPR cameras but unless one is charged differently for different roads then why not take the sorter A and B road route rather than motorway.

 

Less miles on the car, the pay per mile hopefully, siuts EVs as they are better in towns, villages and non motorways.

 

Only problem is claiming the longer route on one's mileage claim but the system having proof one took the more direct route. Going to be a killer for claiming the longer distances !

 

I expect that will charge variable rates according to type of road and time travel, so peak times will cost more to try and reduce congestion. I believe as well that it will start with EV's as ICE will still be charged via fuel duty. 

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

My wife falls into that can of worms as well. 

 

Great experience working for PW and then pwc. Amazing talent to work with but tough ask justifying ones £2k a day charge out rate.

 

Buildings with Arboretums, make partner and you start off on more than quarter of a million and pwc has thousands of partners. Increasingly the action is in the Far East where it is even more franetic.

 

Canada, Oz or NZ would have suited me in retrospect.

 

Seem to have ended up in logistics somehow which I thought I might have done in the middle rather than the end.

 

Started work at 15 as a Merchant Navy Engineering Officer cadet and finishing working for CMA shipping company uk logistics arm. Full circle.

 

Edited 20 August, 202420 Aug by lol-lol

Just to add yet more fuel to this debate, this arrived and REGIT think an announcement is coming in the autumn budget and that it will replace VED and is expected to be around 6p per mile, so that means someone driving 10,000 miles a year would be charged £600 a year, plus unless the fuel duty is also removed ICE drivers will face a massive bill, while EV drivers will get away with yet another advantage, does not seem fair to me, but hey, let's wait for the details in the budget.

 

There is more and evidence that this actually going to be happening and one of the first to predict this was coming, is what for and some people will probably not want to hear this because they have been extremely vocal about this person as being biased, and a conspiracy theorist and even a serial click baiter, it is....drum roll.....Geoff buys Cars, reported on this 18 months ago.

 

So it is looking as if You Tubers might well have been telling us the truth all the time while the MSM have once again been pretty quiet on the subject.

 

Once again time will tell us the full storey.

 

Pay-per-mile road tax: a costly hit for rural drivers? | Regit

 

 

 

 

 

Ok then, following on from the very first post in this thread where I linked a Geoff Buys Cars video, I now present the latest ones that are linked to that video and for which so far no explanation has come forth. 

The first video.

 

The second in the series.

 

 

The third in the series.

 

 

And now the fourth.

 

 

12 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Just to add yet more fuel to this debate, this arrived and REGIT think an announcement is coming in the autumn budget and that it will replace VED and is expected to be around 6p per mile, so that means someone driving 10,000 miles a year would be charged £600 a year, plus unless the fuel duty is also removed ICE drivers will face a massive bill, while EV drivers will get away with yet another advantage, does not seem fair to me, but hey, let's wait for the details in the budget.

Seems like a back door way in an attempt to get EV sales in the UK back on track to meet the 2030 target after their recent drop as people cut back on spending because of home energy, mortgage and rent costs.

It seems to be highly likely that this will now happen as another way to plug the alleged £22billion black hole in the nations finances.

 

 

There is now so much smoke on this subject there has to a fire burning somewhere, this is a definite win for the YT Vloggers as they have been saying this was coming while others were in denial and claiming it was clickbait and that they are biased etc. Well I shall continue to watch them and use them for information as it seems that they are not currently gagaible and so insiders seem to be leaking information to them to get it out in the wild first. I don't automatically dismiss everything that they have to say, I filter it and store it until it is confirmed or reinforced by other sources.

 

Here is a link to a petition against it being introduced as it seems that it will apply to all cars, regardless of their fuel, so drivers/owners of ICE will be hit by a double whammy as it is now looking like the fuel duty is going to be hiked and they will be subject to PPM as well, which is not fair at all. Petition · Stop the Introduction of 'Pay-Per-Mile' Vehicle Tax Bands - United Kingdom · Change.org

Edited 9 September, 20249 Sep by Graham Butcher

I think that this is really turning out to be in the favour of the "YouTubers", who many have dismissed in the past as now the press have also managed to pick up on the story of paying per mile, and it was looking like London was going to be the first area to trail it. Even now, I still would not rule it out of becoming true, despite many claiming that it will not ever happen, the infrastructure is being rolled out in the form of a Trojan horse, "low emission zone cameras" as well as cameras in location such as the Dartford crossing for the collection of tolls etc. Once more of the schemes are introduced and the cameras, plus the average speed cameras are linked to central databases you have required support system to launch it nationwide.

 

The 'secret' plan to charge Essex border drivers per mile - Essex Live

24 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I think that this is really turning out to be in the favour of the "YouTubers", who many have dismissed in the past as now the press have also managed to pick up on the story of paying per mile, and it was looking like London was going to be the first area to trail it. Even now, I still would not rule it out of becoming true, despite many claiming that it will not ever happen, the infrastructure is being rolled out in the form of a Trojan horse, "low emission zone cameras" as well as cameras in location such as the Dartford crossing for the collection of tolls etc. Once more of the schemes are introduced and the cameras, plus the average speed cameras are linked to central databases you have required support system to launch it nationwide.

 

The 'secret' plan to charge Essex border drivers per mile - Essex Live

 

The Government have always had "think tanks" that have worked on and created projects for consideration.

 

It does not mean they were ever going to happen.

 

Someone leaking information normally does it for nefarious or scare mongering goals.

 

But they get away with it because once the scheme is thought of and presented to be considered the Government or Councils cannot deny that it was given consideration.

Even if it was dismissed out of hand as unworkable.

Maybe though one day these schemes could be financially  cheaper than current payments paid as they go up with inflation.

 

Cameras for tolls on Tunnels/bridges/congestion charge/ulez are there too save "staffing" them with booths which would cost more to collect.

 

Many cameras around the country are for traffic management and controlling flow.

Edited 23 November, 202423 Nov by Stonekeeper

If it is to be trialled then makes sense to do it in the area of the UK with the most people, the most vehicle movements, they most cameras, detectors and maybe the highest pollution. 

Maybe the most crime and vehicles without VED, Insurance, MOT,s. 

The UK Government in Westminster doing what they have the powers to trial in England.  Rather than their usual 'Across the Country / all corners of the Nation', which is England and not the UK. 

A Greater Manchester Police (GMP) chief is calling for officers to be given full access to the network of cameras installed for enforcement of the Clean Air Zone (CAZ).

Over 400 ANPR cameras were erected ahead of the planned implementation of the charging zone in May 2022, which was then delayed and the future of which is still uncertain. Police can access information and images from the cameras which has already provided evidence in five murder cases, six gun incidents, two stabbings, four fatal crashes amongst others.

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-clean-air-zone-26145014

Edited 23 November, 202423 Nov by Stonekeeper

24 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

A Greater Manchester Police (GMP) chief is calling for officers to be given full access to the network of cameras installed for enforcement of the Clean Air Zone (CAZ).

Over 400 ANPR cameras were erected ahead of the planned implementation of the charging zone in May 2022, which was then delayed and the future of which is still uncertain. Police can access information and images from the cameras which has already provided evidence in five murder cases, six gun incidents, two stabbings, four fatal crashes amongst others.

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-clean-air-zone-26145014

Hmm, if the police have gathered that kind of information from the cameras then they clearly have far greater capabilities and uses other than just ANPR, which is just what many YouTubers were claiming, it is becoming more like George Orwell's 1984 by the day.

37 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hmm, if the police have gathered that kind of information from the cameras then they clearly have far greater capabilities and uses other than just ANPR, which is just what many YouTubers were claiming, it is becoming more like George Orwell's 1984 by the day.

 

It is no surprise that a Number plate recognition camera records number plate data.

 

Helpful for the Police if someone sees a car leaving the scene of a crime maybe?

 

Maybe useful should your car be stolen?

For years the Police & HMRC tracked vehicles through England and never stopped the vehicles until into Scotland and tracked using the systems in place here for vehicles entering the British Mainland from Norther Ireland. 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hmm, if the police have gathered that kind of information from the cameras then they clearly have far greater capabilities and uses other than just ANPR, which is just what many YouTubers were claiming, it is becoming more like George Orwell's 1984 by the day.

That are cameras...   They record an image so anything on that image is available to them.  The ANPR bit is post-processing of the image to identify and extract the number plate.

 

How did you think they worked???

4 hours ago, skomaz said:

That are cameras...   They record an image so anything on that image is available to them.  The ANPR bit is post-processing of the image to identify and extract the number plate.

 

How did you think they worked???

I just assumed that seeing as they were part of an ANPR setup which is required for CAZ or LEZ system that they cameras and the entire system would be setup and dedicated purely for the function alone and to reconfigure them for other purposes would be a bit of a faff and not possible without some major reconfiguration of the system. After all is said and done, is there a town or city that is not already set up without CCTV monitoring, so why not use that?

Edited 23 November, 202423 Nov by Graham Butcher