Hi, 

 

I have a late 2019 Fabia MK3 1.0 TSI that I want to install electric heater in. 

 

Does anyone know if its possible to circulate the coolant with an externally driven pump when the car is turned off?

 

I have installed a heater inside the car to defrost it before I have to go but it's quite frustrating not to have an heat for some time before the engine get up to temp, which it can struggle with when it's really cold. 

 

I have looked at both Calix and DEFA who are the big suppliers of heaters here and the only solution they offer is a heater block that is screwed to the outside of the oil sump, and basically do no difference. 

 

I would like to buy a water heater  and install byt they say the car either will throw codes because of the temp differences in the system or it will not have any circulation due to several thermostats..

 

In willing to give it a try mounting a heater with built in circulation pump if the cooling system is open when the car is off allowing the coolant to circulate. 

 

Does anyone know if it is possible to circulate the coolant when the car is turned off or is there thermostats or valves closed when the car is off? I have tried to find workshop manuals in order to try to see but haven't found any.

 

Tia! 

There is a Webasto kit, but IIRC it's not available as an option for RHD vehicles. You could try one of the retro-fitters.

One member on here has fitted one of these himself - I cannot remember the build topic title at the moment. 

I live in Sweden so I have a LHD car. 

I looked in to Webasto and contacted a local retrofitter and he told me that it might cause the same issue with the car throwing codes, and it was like £2000 or something for something that might not work. 

I'm Mostly interested in warming it in the morning when I'm at home anyways so having to plug it in isn't an issue. 

 

There are several electric heaters with circulation pump that should at least work in theory as long as the coolant is allowed to flow through the system. 

 

The systems tend to get more and more technically advanced so I don't know if one could rely on manual thermostats opening when the coolant get hot enough to allow circulation 

As the Webasto system can be specified as an option in your country, pretty unlikely to cause an issue with DTCs.

From my knowledge of electric block heaters in Canada, non-circulation of heated coolant is not an issue - there should only be a very short delay for the block coolant to reach the heater battery once the engine has started. 

I think you might be referring to a preheater or prewarmer, I am sure there used to be 'external' types for heating the coolant pipe for classic cars but I can't find them now here is just to give, or confirm, the idea  an (expensive?) 'internal' type example for race cars. - https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/automotive-plumbing-solutions-thermostatic-engine-pre-heater-3kw-kit-dtmeph3kwkit/

 

I expect you already have a coolant thermostat fitted suitable for cold climates also using a better quality engine oil than the Dealerships and general garages that operates better (and offers more protection for longer) at lower ambient temperatures will help with cold starting and running.

 

The days of radiator (grille) blinds has gone of course.

 

4 hours ago, nta16 said:

The days of radiator (grille) blinds has gone of course.

All four of my cars have one fitted during the winter.

 

https://e-heko.com/en_GB/c/Winter-covers/1323

 

Thanks. AG Falco

Interesting! Didn't know the Webasto was available for 1.0 TSI. It's typically an option for diesel cars as many have the need for aux heater while running anyways.

And I've never seen one fitted with it here. 

A Webasto heater will sadly be too expensive to retrofit. I would be able to retrofit electric one myself. 

No issue with cold start or running cold, I would just prefere to have it warm quicker. 

Yes there are inline heaters where you cut a hose and just clamp it between the two pieces of hose. 

The manufacturers say this is no longer an option for some reason, probably because they are lazy and don't want to test it on every model as the can just tell every dealer to mount a 300w heater block on the outside of the oil pan and people not nowing better will be happy. 

 

But I still don't want to waste time and money on installing a inline water heater if the system won't allow for any circulation. 

There is nothing complicated about the fabia mk1 cooling system, I can't see why it wouldn't work, the thermostat will only open to the radiator once it gets hot enough but I guess the heater thermostat is set lower than the stat anyway. The rest of the cooling circuit remains open all the time AFAIK

1 hour ago, SuperbTWM said:

There is nothing complicated about the fabia mk1 cooling system,

15 hours ago, 51MM3 said:

I have a late 2019 Fabia MK3 1.0 TSI that I want to install electric heater in.

 

I have no idea if or how much more complicated a 1.0 TSI cooling system is than a Mk1, though a diesel generally takes longer to warm up than a petrol as I was reminded last week when I drove a hired diesel.

 

6 hours ago, nta16 said:

 

I have no idea if or how much more complicated a 1.0 TSI cooling system is than a Mk1, though a diesel generally takes longer to warm up than a petrol as I was reminded last week when I drove a hired diesel.

 

Apologies, got confused with the cars/comments. 
 

There is a possibility the mk3 TSI is slightly more complex. Some have extra valves and coolant circuits so depending on where you plumbed it in it may only heat part of the engine such as the cylinder head/ heater matrix rather than the full block. 
 

you really need to look at a workshop manual for a definitive answer

 

37 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

Apologies, got confused with the cars/comments. 
 

There is a possibility the mk3 TSI is slightly more complex. Some have extra valves and coolant circuits so depending on where you plumbed it in it may only heat part of the engine such as the cylinder head/ heater matrix rather than the full block. 
 

you really need to look at a workshop manual for a definitive answer

 

No worries! 

Yes on a mk1 I wouldn't even give it a thought. I have tried to get home of workshop manual without success. I know for a fact that it at least have a aux electric pump to keep cooling the turbo if it's still hot when the car is shut off. 

 

7 hours ago, nta16 said:

 

I have no idea if or how much more complicated a 1.0 TSI cooling system is than a Mk1, though a diesel generally takes longer to warm up than a petrol as I was reminded last week when I drove a hired diesel.

 

That's correct, that's he reason most diesel cars here are fitted with aux heater from factory even if you don't buy it as an option. The option is basically to be able to use it when the car is parked. In my Octavia mk III 2.0tdi 150 DSG I have the option to change in the options if the car should start it automatically if needed while driving. Diesel doesn't generate as much heat while running so without it there would be problems getting the temp up when it's -20⁰c outside.

This is a part of the reason why diesel has higher efficiency than gasoline. 

The euro 6 TDI does have a few different circuits but AFIAK there are no valves to prevent circulation, it just disables the water pump to allow an electric pump to circulate round the cylinder head, egr coolant and the heater matrix before the mechanical pump gets enabled to pump round the whole circuit including the block, oil cooler and radiator (via the thermostat). 
 

I’m sure I’m remember seeing something regarding the 2.0 TSI that mentioned a valve that could divert the coolant rather than using the water pump but I’m not sure if they did the same on the smaller engines

Edited 8 October, 20241 yr by SuperbTWM

OFF TOPIC

I am always surprised at anyone in Sweden buying modern VW products with their history of past marques like Volvo and SAAB, I guess VW must offer your market more than in England and treat its customers better than in England (though generally English Dealerships for any marque can be poor quality).  In Australia apparently Škoda new cars get 7(?) years warranty  we couldn't dream of 5 let alone 7, yet some "cheaper" marques are able to offer 7 year warranties in England, been that way for decades that "cheaper" car manufacturers can offer longer warranties than the established "better" brands.  I only put England as that is my personal experience from decades of the English motor trade.

 

Doesn't help with your topic just my curiosity.

 

1 minute ago, nta16 said:

OFF TOPIC

I am always surprised at anyone in Sweden buying modern VW products with their history of past marques like Volvo and SAAB, I guess VW must offer your market more than in England and treat its customers better than in England (though generally English Dealerships for any marque can be poor quality).  In Australia apparently Škoda new cars get 7(?) years warranty  we couldn't dream of 5 let alone 7, yet some "cheaper" marques are able to offer 7 year warranties in England, been that way for decades that "cheaper" car manufacturers can offer longer warranties than the established "better" brands.  I only put England as that is my personal experience from decades of the English motor trade.

 

Doesn't help with your topic just my curiosity.

 

 

Saab is unfortunately long gone, and they were already gone in the end of their time when they were bought by GM (?). 

Volvo is no longer Swedish as well and I don't really like their cars to be honest. My in-laws love Volvo but to me the cars are not comfortable to drive. Yes there is loads of space in the V70 they have but there is no joy what so ever driving it. It's just heavy, no supports in the seat and so on. They are much bigger than I am so I get that they like it but it's a big no for me. Plus the price is outrageously high, even in the second hand market. They can go for £5000-8000 more than a octy does.. 

Don't know how long warranty Volvo offer but Skoda & VW have as far as I know standard 2 year warranty and 3 year car damage warranty (basically free insurance to get it fixed if crashed but you still need separate insurance to pay for the  damage done to other involved if it's your fault and theft). 

 

We've had octys in the family since the first RS was launched here and Skoda is great value for what you get. Less baby disease as the tech usually have been launched at Audi and VW before coming to the "cheaper" brand. 

 

Had a salesman at Skoda tell me why they didn't offer longer warranty, it was "because we know our cars doesn't break down".... I didn't purchase from him. 

 

We also have very good consumer protection laws here. If I buy anything from a dealer or store, and doesn't matter what it is basically, will I have the right to leave a complaint within 3 years of purchase for any fault occuring, withing the 2 first years they have to prove that I've caused the fault through wrongful use or something, otherwise it's considered as the fault was there at purchase, even if it's a used item as a car. To not be responsible they have to declare all faults and the customer have to sign off on the declaration. Anything bot in the declaration is considered a fault they are responsible for.

And we can get good insurance policys if the car isn't too old.

I can get almost every fault that's not serviceable parts like pads, discs etc fixed through the insurance, so I don't care much about the dealers and their warranty's as I have very good protection as there is. 

I am 64 so I can remember when Volvos were Volvo and SAABs were SAAB (and even Škoda wasn't VW) and was thinking of then rather than GM and Ford products.  Good to hear you don't have our lower consumer/customer standards that the likes of the car manufacturers and their Dealerships are able to take advantage of here.  Although it sounds like that Skoda salesman would be at home in an English Dealership.

 

I am not in Sweden but I still use a better quality oil than the standard Dealership/garage/mechanic/DIY and certainly would in somewhere as cold as Sweden, certainly if I was intending to keep the car for a number or good number of years for the better performance and protection in the very cold (and hot) ambient and running temperatures though I don't think it would make any difference to the warming you want.

 

Good luck with your search.

 

8 hours ago, nta16 said:

I am 64 so I can remember when Volvos were Volvo and SAABs were SAAB (and even Škoda wasn't VW) and was thinking of then rather than GM and Ford products.  Good to hear you don't have our lower consumer/customer standards that the likes of the car manufacturers and their Dealerships are able to take advantage of here.  Although it sounds like that Skoda salesman would be at home in an English Dealership.

 

I am not in Sweden but I still use a better quality oil than the standard Dealership/garage/mechanic/DIY and certainly would in somewhere as cold as Sweden, certainly if I was intending to keep the car for a number or good number of years for the better performance and protection in the very cold (and hot) ambient and running temperatures though I don't think it would make any difference to the warming you want.

 

Good luck with your search.

 

Ah yes, the good old days! Still miss my 740 turbo I had with welded diff and 680.000kms on the clock! It handled like a boat but it was comfy, fun and went sideways everywhere.

Also had a Saab og 9-3 aero 2.0t for a little while. 

 

Yes the consumer rights is one thing I love. 

I would never in my life start a second hand car dealership. 

The dealer I bought my previous octy from probably made a loss. 

They had to replace the battery, driver's seat undercarriage as there was excessive play in the height adjustment, bought it in winter with studded tires on and when I put the summer tires on I had vibrations, checked the tires and they had flat spots all four of them so they had to pay for a full new set to be put on. 

I found this schematic for 1.2tsi, and if the basics are the same it should be possible to put a heater with pump and backflow valve (?) in parallel to the existing one at the top of the image. 

This circuit seems to be open with only restriction through the water pump it self but this type of pump usually are centrifugal and will let water flow through it 

Removed to save confusion.

 

Edited 8 October, 20241 yr by nta16
Removed to save confusion.

11 minutes ago, nta16 said:

The following is from 2016 VWŠkoda WSM for 1.2 TSI, I have no idea if and by how much a 2019 might vary.

 

Thanks! By looking at it I feel like mine is more like the one I posted. It has a different aux pump for the turbocharger and when it's running the coolant flows through the expansion tank which it doesn't seem to do in this one 

So I talked to a friend who works for VAG stealership and got hold of the schematics for the cooling system for 1.0TSI. 

It's quite similar but not exactly as the one for 1.2TSI.

 

I haven't checked if it's physically possible yet but my plan is to mount it like shown in the very professionally edited photo: 

(Värmare is heater in Swedish) 

So mount the heater on the pipe leading to the heater matrix. It appears that there is a unrestricted circuit between the heater matrix, engine, expansion tank, apart from the water pump which should have some kind of flow through it anyways. 

I will have to see if the hose is accessible to cut in to, and also se what kind of flow a heater will have through it when turned off. I don't want to restrict the cooling system when the car is running and if it will restrict I'll have to make a separate hose to slice in at the anti backflow valve and put one on the heater line as well

Thanks for all your input, here's an update. 

 

I had a good look on the good ol interwebs after a good heater. I found cheap 1500w ones from china being sold all over amazon and other websites, or there were a few other options with Russian name and text on them but they are easily found directly on Chinese sites as well. 

I didn't feel like putting some no-brand china unit in the car as the consequences of a malfunction would be severe. 

Found this one sold by a small Swedish company, surely imported somewhere from china as everything is, but at least I will have protection through Swedish consumer Laws if something were to happen. 

 

It is 1.1kw with built in pump, cost equivalent to £130 with shipping, feels like good build quality and it has a serious electrical connector made for pre heaters and coupe heaters, and I already had a heater inside the car using that system. 

 

I went ahead and mounted it on the hose between the expansion tank and connector on the hose between engine and heater matrix with the thought that the water would have to flow through either heater matrix or engine. 

First placement didn't work as a problem with air inside it occured, fortunately it survived as I realized this risk and and filled the heater before mounting it.

 

Moved it a bit on the same hose to a better location where the air would escape easier, and this time it worked, but... 

It isn't clear in the flow chart, but the water doesn't have to take its way through the engine or heater matrix, it just "turned" the wrong way and returned to the tank through the water pump and return hose, so nothing got heated apart from the water in those two hoses and the tank. 

 

I got mad and yesterday I finally relocated it to one of the hoses between the engine and the heater matrix.

Made room in the garage, put the front end on stands, got under it, removed the plastic underneath the engine, squeezed my hands in to the tiny space where it could fit and got to work. 

Many swear words and some coolant in the eye later, I got it in place. 

 

Tested it this morning, it ran for 40-45 minutes before reaching it's set temp where it stops until the temp drops. 

I got in to the car and to my surprise the coolant temp read 75⁰c. 

It was +4⁰c outside (car says +6⁰c in picture but that's due to the heater, and during the night the temp were down to 1⁰c), so not really that cold but still.

It appears to circulate the water through all of the engine and heater matrix as the temp didn't drop at all when I started the car.

 

The manual says it should stop at 55⁰c and start again below 40⁰c, but it seems like it goes higher as the car indicated higher temp. 

 

Great success and so worth all of the trubble. A DEFA heater wouldn't come near these results. 

 

Edited 6 November, 20241 yr by 51MM3

Update #2

 

This morning was a bit colder with a ambient temp of -3⁰c. 

Ran the heater for 1h together with the coupe heater. 

 

Water temp was 65-70⁰c but almost instantly increased to 75⁰c when I started the car. 

 

It reached a water temp of 90⁰c within 2km/3min and oil temp of 50⁰c within 3km/3-4min.

 

It heat up faster even though it was colder outside but it's probably due to it pumping the hot water in to the engine first and running for longer before it will reach its shut of temp. 

 

Never thought it would be so effective. It will be really interesting to see how it performs when the temperature drops even lower. 

 

I can also notice that the fuel consumption is an low I can get it doing the school drop off route during the summer. 

 

 

5/5 recommend

Great news.

 

Just to clarify, this 1.1kw heater with built in pump (cost equivalent to £130 including P&P)

 

is powered by electric from where?

the heater part is what Kw?

coupe heater is the other heater you previously put inside the car to defrost inside before you use the car?