Hi Forum

 

Mum has a 2018 Fabia that has gone into limp mode - Also the Start-Stop is complaining of an Error

 

She managed to get home and we called Green Flag who plugged in a code reader

 

Code returned P0638

Q. Is this a throttle body sensor error or a throttle body error

 

The throttle body is a Magnetti Marelli VW - 04C133062C

Q. Do you repair or replace

Q. If replaced, what is the difference between them as the costs can vary and some say they require learning / teaching of the throttle body

 

Final Question

Q. Can someone provide a few suggestions of where to obtain a throttle body

Maybe include the engine code, some of these throttle bodies only have a single VW Group part number for the correct one.

Additional Information: Engine Code is: - CHZC794713

You are jumping the gun with replacing a throttle body or sensor just based on an error code and the error code could be from elsewhere in the line.

 

P0638 - https://www.obd-codes.com/p0638

 

Green Flag AFAIK (but I could be wrong) use sub-contractors so their scan tools may vary, so to the diligence of its operator to make sure the scan tool program is fully up to date for your mum's 2018 Fabia.

 

For diagnostics including using a scan tool the car battery needs to be in a reasonable state of charge and health and all electrical connections in good order.  So the first thing you need to do is check the battery terminal connections and main cables, wires and connections are all secure, clean and protected including the earths.

 

Start/stop errors and not be active when it should be can be aa parts of other issues but also if the battery is in a lower state of charge than the computers like, this can be before dash warnings and lights with the headlights seeming bright enough and well before the engine presents difficulty in starting.

 

I would check the connections as above, fully charge the battery with an appropriate battery charger maintainer following the instructions to do this in the car's Owner's Manual and chargers instructions.  Free VWŠkoda download pdf or online version of the Owner's Manual from this link. - https://manual.skoda-auto.com/004/en-com/Models

 

Whilst the battery is being fully recharged (this could take many hours, the lower the battery state of charge the more ours obviously) I would seek out someone with a VW appropriate scan tool and get more information than just that (one) error code.  Error codes normally are just part of diagnosis not the solution in themselves (though sometimes they can be).  There may be ways of testing the sensor without a scan tool but a scan tool should show (or help to) if the throttle body is operating properly.

 

There are Briskoda members with VW appropriate scan tools that can at least provide a report of error codes and other information if not fully diagnosis, some for a beer token or two others perhaps fully professional services.  See the opening post here and link to availability map at the end of that first post.  Good luck.

 

 

  

Edited 7 October, 20241 yr by nta16
spelling

Fantastic reply! 😁👍

 

Yep..... appreciate it could be electrical but you try and explain that to a pensioner parent who has no mechanical sympathy and is threatening to drive the car in Limp Mode!!

I did check the battery connections and all were tight - I disconnected the battery for 15 minutes but nothing reset when re-connecting - We have ordered a new battery as the existing one is 6 years old anyway  (Ordered a decent Varta one 640CCA - 4 Year Guarantee from Tayna - being delivered tomorrow)

 

Will continue on my diagnostic path 

 

Any pointers are appreciated...... by me, if not by Mum!

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, flatbadgers said:

We have ordered a new battery

 

2 hours ago, flatbadgers said:

Any pointers are appreciated

Don't forget to code the new battery to the car after fitting.

 

Thanks. AG Falco

It might be that the Green Flag man had a fully updated scan tool, checked all error codes, checked battery and other connections and state of charge and health of battery and it is a throttle body or throttle body sensor error but there's not enough information to confirm that in your posts and things are always worth double and treble checking when so much hassle and cost is involved for your mum, and you.

 

Usually I'd not suggest buying a new battery (but recharging as I suggested) but having lived among and dealt with people well into pension age for four decades I do understand they can have very little patience or understanding sometimes so a new battery is a good choice (personally I'd fully charge the new battery before fitting so I know I start at 100% charge with the new battery in case I need to check the battery only a little later in any episode or end up using a lot of battery charge on diagnostics and testing..

 

Going through the list on the link, at 6 years old if the car is reasonably serviced I can't think the throttle body would be that dirty, pedal or throttle sensors or connectors or wiring could perhaps play up at any time particularly if other work has been done around them, or accidents or water, that interferes with them, modules you'd hope not.  The overlord computer programs always have potential to throw wobbles.

 

Other than draining the battery I can't think what your mum could do to cause the car to behave like this and I don't blame your mum for having zero patience with the car going faulty otherwise.

 

See how things are after fitting the new battery, after fitting try starting the car then turn the headlights on, air-con on, blower on to 4, turn the steering wheel full lock one way then the other, let it tick over for a while.  Hopefully the heavy electric load will help "learn" the battery monitor bit.  Leaving it to tick over and then going for a short drive might convince the computer overlord that the throttle body is OK (if it is).  If not a scan tool is best used to get nearer to the cause of the issue or on to other checks.

 

Good luck.

 

Another fantastic reply! .........  and exposes how little I know about how cars have evolved (I drive an '08 Auris and my brother a '10 i30)

 

This is where I show my naivety and ask for a link:

Can someone provide a link (or steps) to how a battery is coded to a vehicle ..... appreciate this is going to be complex ..... as it's probably a combo of ..... get this software / get this cable / go to this area / enter this value (type of thing)

 

Green Flag Callout -

Battery - Was advised that voltage looked a bit lower than "normal" and 5 cells weren't as strong as they should be

Scanner - This was a picture taken by my brother at the time of the callout - Codes were cleared - Car was rescanned

Microsoft Co-Pilot advises this: 
Do the people agree with the AI?

If the replacement battery is exactly the same type and specification as the old one, the only important data to change is the battery serial number - which can simply be the original number with the last digit changed. Battery brand code is not important. Only critical data is capacity (in AHs), battery type (EFB/AGM) and serial number. Changing the serial number tells the battery monitoring module that the battery has been changed, and any existing battery faults registered will be deleted, allowing the charging system to operate normally.    

I'm sure that I've read that a few people have ended up with a faulty/failed Throttle Body on any of these VW Group cars with small engines, so don't completely dismiss that it could be that - but reading about that is one thing, ending up in this situation is another.

 

When replacing a Throttle Body, "adaption" sequence/procedure should be run using a suitable scan/diagnostics tool.

 

I'm not sure at which point you should consider handing this car into a proper VW Group specialist for them to find out what the root cause of this - and for them to code in the new battery once you have fitted it.

 

This could end up being a quick fix if/when you replace the Throttle Body with a new CORRECT one, then get a local proper VW Group Indie to run adaption on the new TB and code in the battery - or just be the start of replacing parts when there is another hidden problem.

 

It's maybe okay for people like me who have VCDS (scan/diagnostic tool) to have a good poke around and end up taking a well thought out punt on it actually being the TB and buying a new one etc, so the only cash spend will be on the TB which at this moment I have no idea of the actual cost - and just put up with my parts buying error, but less so for someone hoping to learn/fix as cheaply as possible.

 

Edit:- maybe tempting to grab a used one at the £50 > £70 price band, just avoid the ones that look like they have been submerged in salt water for a while!! That is if you feel lucky, but stick strictly to buying the same VW Group part number as that is still the only version listed for that engine.

Edited 8 October, 20241 yr by rum4mo

On that AL301 code reader(?) it shows  "1 / 2" so does that mean there was a second error code?

 

For the battery as  Warrior193 has put exactly how it is presented depends on the scan tool used and not all may be able to do it for your mum's model and year (depends what programs are on the scan tool).  Below is an example from when a Briskoda member 'coded', using OBDEleven, the replacement battery for my wife car a number of days after I fitted it ( I fully charged the battery to 100% before fitting as that is my preference).  I changed from a EFB type of battery to an AGM type (without the additional insulation for engine bay fitment, a bit of maverick risk taking), VW call AGM "fleece" (just because they can?). 😁

 

Personally I'd not loose any sleep over getting the 'coding' done immediately on a change for same type and near enough Ah battery, I think it's better to have it done than not and sooner than later, just in case, but others have reported that they've not bothered with 'coding' and no issues, perhaps the (like for like) battery may (or may not) have a shorter (or bit shorter) life if not 'coded' as new or as soon as possibly but it may depend on hassle to reward ratio of benefit overall.

 

 

The battery could have lasted more than 6 years if a battery charger was also used but that might be more than your mum (or family) want to get involved in.

 

An 08 car is a new car to me (too new), I now drive my wife's 2015 Fabia, a neighbour's 2023 Ren-No! Nissan Cashcow and another neighbour's 2016 Corsa and until recently another neighbour's 2005 Kia Picanto and by far the best car for me was the 2005 (28k-miles on it).  Another neighbour has asked if my wife would sometimes drive their 2016 Suzuki Swift as she has insurance and I don't (I'm a named driver on the other policies) so I know about pensioners and cars and particularly cars that aren't driven often and/or cars that only generally do very short journeys (if that), I'm not sure if that applies to your mum given how long the battery has lasted on that VW.  Even my wife's car sometimes only does two 2 mile journeys on a work day.  That has led me to the even greater importance of the 12v battery in modern cars particularly with VW's complex computer programs, an experience I am very, very ungrateful about.  Until a couple of years ago my one and only car and "daily driver" for the previous 16 years was a 1973 MG Midget.  I never had battery problems, every other but never battery. 😆

 

ETA: Something AI doesn't seem to know (yet?) is that there isn't a code on a new battery, well in VW terms anyway and as you see from my example above VW didn't bother with it at the factory for my wife's 2015 car and I've seen the same for other posters, I guess it was all about statistics for VW originally and warranty issues and parts stocking level plus perhaps potential for VW to blame the battery manufacturers for any ****-ups with their system on to the battery manufacturers, such is the motor trade.  My wife's car had a recall "about the battery" CU97 IIRC.

 

Edited 8 October, 20241 yr by nta16
ETA:

Thanks again to all who have contributed to the quest

UPDATE:

We're going to get the battery fitted tomorrow and we've got a slot at an Auto Electrician on Thursday

They're going to do some proper scans and hopefully narrow down what the fault could be (and they'll code the battery)

They've been recommended by another Auto Electrician and apparently, they have the correct kit

 

General Info - Throttle Body - OEM Part No: 04C133062C

Parkway VW wanted £504 for the Magnetti OEM Part

GSF wanted £370 for the same OEM part

A trusted local motor factors quoted £590 for OEM and £219 for aftermarket

All prices Inc VAT

Well done.  The auto-electrician can do a "report" on his initial scan (off the scan tool to you via email or wotever) this is useful as different scan tools can throw up different anomalies at times as they all have their good and bad points.  You'd hope VW specific programs would be most accurate but those and the car's computers can have brain-farts/glitches/programming errors.

 

If he's a good auto-electrician he won't just be relying on a scan tool and will check, double check and cross check information he gets from his various tools and his knowledge, experience and training.

 

Ask for a "report" on the battery 'coding' too for future reference, again it's easy for him to do, especially after already having your details from the first "report", takes seconds to do, no reason not to (altho' I don't know about the ancient system that is VCDS or current VW one.

 

A poster on here had an auto-electrician that put his 70 Ah battery in as 7 Ah and this caused issues later, why a computer program would allow this input error is beyond me but it did.

 

Hopefully the new battery will bring good gains now, it certainly will in the near future if the previous battery really was 5 cells down out of 6, and let's see what Thursday brings.  At those quoted prices you can see why you want to be sure if the throttle body is fully at fault, if it is it's a really poor show on the quality and longevity of the part VW use but not a huge surprise given the overall quality of VW ,and other German marques this century/millennium.

 

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

 

Edited 8 October, 20241 yr by nta16
spelling

Update: This is for my benefit ...... so I can track my story

 

Diagnosis:

Have been let down by the Auto Electrician who didn't have the full tools to diagnose the issue properly.

Was expecting them to say voltages look OK on the accelarator , throttle position sensor etc

My brother just got ... Error code says Throttle Body and it feels a bit sticky

Feel slightly ripped off for the £70+VAT

Could have bought my own OBD2 reader to tell me that

 

Battery:

The Exide Battery on the Fabia was a 59AH - 660CCA which was replaced by a Varta 60AH - 640CCA so was very close on spec

 

Next:

I'm going to take a look and if I think I can give the Throttle Body a clean (without breaking clips / damaging wires etc) I'm good to give it a go

If that doesn't do anything will ask the forum for some advice on who to contact that can diagnose the fault properly

Obviously ..... if it is a knackered Throttle Body it's a knackered Throttle Body and needs replacing ..... however if the Throttle Body is replaced and it isn't it will feel like a kick in the nether regions

 

Replacement Cost:

Also trying to get consistent prices for OEM and after market replacements is ridiculous - we've had prices from £180+VAT up to £770+ VAT

Then we'd probably need to get it fitted and coding done as I can't see myself doing that

 

Registration: FL18 AOP

Engine Code: CHZC794713

References off the existing TB:

A66 Magnetti Marelli VW

353.1 06.26.20 00

04C133062C

UPDATE:

A bit extra ....... my brother picked the car up from the auto electricians and apparently the P0638 has turned into two new numbers

P029900 - P155800

So we're now slightly more confused than we were before ....... and they quoted £630 to replace the Throttle Body

 

On 08/10/2024 at 17:50, nta16 said:

The auto-electrician can do a "report" on his initial scan (off the scan tool to you via email or wotever) this is useful as different scan tools can throw up different anomalies at times as they all have their good and bad points.  You'd hope VW specific programs would be most accurate but those and the car's computers can have brain-farts/glitches/programming errors.

 

If he's a good auto-electrician he won't just be relying on a scan tool and will check, double check and cross check information he gets from his various tools and his knowledge, experience and training.

 

Ask for a "report" on the battery 'coding' too for future reference, again it's easy for him to do, especially after already having your details from the first "report", takes seconds to do, no reason not to (altho' I don't know about the ancient system that is VCDS or current VW one.

 

A poster on here had an auto-electrician that put his 70 Ah battery in as 7 Ah and this caused issues later, why a computer program would allow this input error is beyond me but it did.

From just what you've put i don't think a lot of your auto-electrician, sexy scan tools are very handy but they're not the only tools needed or can be used to check and diagnosis.

 

Cleaning the throttle body isn't difficult but I would recommend using good quality specific throttle body cleaner and I would remove it from the car to do it properly, you might want to replace the o'ring seal and battery connections to do this and may have to use a scan tool to reset or put up with the car learning (if it does on your mum's model) but a physical sticky plate might not be the issue or only part of the issue.  I'd be looking at multimeter testing and wiggle tests of wiring and connections (after checking all wires and connections on throttle body/sensor and pedal are all clean, secure and protected.

 

First result on Goggle search . - https://forums.ross-tech.com/index.php?threads/16150/

 

For proper diagnosis generally, not just relying on a scan tool, have a look here, there's a recent vid that applies loosely to your issue but I forget which and don't have the time to look now. - https://www.youtube.com/@mrautoservices7354

 

UPDATE:

We had a visit from my brothers mate who was going to take the throttle body off and give it a clean...... however, it was spotless

He then plugged in his OBD2 reader (his was £1500 - the auto electricians was £4000) - We turned the key on the ignition and got a "crunching" noise from the Throttle Body

The throttle pedal was pressed and there was a small movement in the butterfly valve and a bit more "crunching"

More importantly, he was reading voltages and % throttle values from the accelerator pedal

 

So, it looks like those little plastic gears in the throttle body are f4ck3d (broken)

 

We're now resigned to purchasing and replacing the throttle body

 

VAG's network operates in a clandestine way when trying to get part numbers and prices .......  and we're not very trusting of aftermarket parts ...... so it looks like around £500 for a throttle body and £100 to fit

 

On the upside once the TB is replaced I'll have a broken one to play with and I might be able to find a service kit somewhere and fix it

 

It's disappointing that a TB has failed on a 6 year old car that has done 36,000 miles and has been serviced annually

 

But we all know ..... it is what it is! 

 

PS

Sensors may be this cars achilles heal as it had the Turbo actuator replaced under warranty in Feb '21

PPS

Thanks to all for the supportive feedback ....... you've been great!

Yes, that age of 1.0TSI seems to get more turbo issues than the slightly younger 1.2TSI, also the previous 1.2TSI "enjoyed" a reasonably high failure rate for turbo associated issues!

 

Really not what you'd hope to encounter in a newish car, as much as many other benefits, fuel injection was meant to get rid of all the wear and tear issues that plagued carbs - another bit of newer is not always more reliable, it could or should be, but where is an accountant making "big" decisions, not much good for the end user will happen - okay brilliant at the point of sale, but very probable bad news further down the line. 

 

More of that coming with EVs I'd guess

 

I'd hope that re-manufacturers could revive these throttle bodies - but that means taking the car out of use for a week or so. 

 

Edit:- these TBs do make a bit of noise when they are "doing things" after the engine is switched off, but not sounding like crunching plastic gears.

Edited 12 October, 20241 yr by rum4mo

The auto-electrician should have been able to do the same and more than your brother's mate, unfortunately I'm not surprised at a poor experience with a auto-electrician (or electrician).

On 10/10/2024 at 17:14, nta16 said:

For proper diagnosis generally, not just relying on a scan tool, have a look here, there's a recent vid that applies loosely to your issue but I forget which and don't have the time to look now. - https://www.youtube.com/@mrautoservices7354

 

 

German engineering quality hasn't been as good this century/millennium as the last century/millennium, VW seem to use some lower quality and longevity parts.  On my wife's car I wasn't impressed with "battery management" Recall, the front dampers needing replacement at 6 years / 41k-miles and the replacements "misting" within 11 months of fitment, various clunks on suspension, expensive remote keyfob failing, perhaps also factory brake discs and pads life.  Not disastrous but disappointing when compared with other car manufactures and some supposedly "cheaper made" of better quality let alone very older cars. 

 

Edited 12 October, 20241 yr by nta16

UPDATE

We managed tp source a second hand Throttle Body from Charles Trents (https://www.trents.co.uk/) - Had to give it a bit of a clean but didn't have to scrub the life out of it and bathe it in acid

 

It was ordered on Tuesday - Delivered Wednesday and it was fitted this evening (Thursday)

 

Luckily we found out that my brothers other mate works as an apprentice mechanic at a VAG specialist garage and he managed to borrow the garage laptop with VCDS on it

 

He replaced the Throttle Body and did the necessary with VCDS

 

Brother took it for a 10 mile test drive and it seems to be behaving........ it's now over to the person without any engineering sensitivity (Mum) to put it through it's paces

 

At the moment Mum isn't happy as she thinks it's a bit of a bodge whereas my brother and I think it's a bit of a result and replacing OEM Part  for OEM Part (exactly) made sense ....... especially when both parts have 12 Months Warranty

 

If we have an issue with the new second hand one we can source a new new one from Autodoc ...... Same Magnetti Marelli one for £281 (Inc VAT Delivered https://www.autodoc.co.uk/magneti-marelli/12827481)

 

We would have done this but they're out of stock and we thought we'd take a punt and try and get Mum Mobile again (so she can visit mates and go to Keep Fit Classes)

 

Costs: 

So instead of: -

£420+Vat for Genuine New Throttle Body + £85+Vat (for fitting) total approx £600) 

It's been

£108 (Delivered) for Genuine 2nd Hand Throttle Body + Beer Money (for fitting) total approx £150

 

Other costs:

£70+VAT for the non beneficial auto-electrician diagnosis 

 

Question 

Do you think we've done the right thing with a second-hand part? - What would you have done?

 

 

 

Edited 17 October, 20241 yr by flatbadgers

Finally:

I am now in the possession of a broken throttle body ...... I'm going to open it up and see if it can be repaired. If it needs replacement gears or springs if anyone has a URL for a service kit could they ping it below

 

Finally Finally:

Thank you to the forum for keeping me and my brother sane with good advice ....... greatly appreciated 😁👍

16 minutes ago, flatbadgers said:

Question 

Do you think we've done the right thing with a second-hand part? - What would you have done?

Definitely. 

I would have done the same.

Not a common problem,  as far as I know, so most 2nd hand ones will be fine. 

Well you got the result that you needed, so all good!

 

I wonder why Autodoc have run out of stock, maybe they are flying out the door, the thing is, maybe the original one fitted to your mum's car came from a production batch or build state that did cause problems, and now, you might be lucky enough to have bought a used one from a production batch or build state that did not suffer many issues - stay lucky. That is just pure speculation from me.

 

There will be a few or many re-manufacturers of items like these, who will charge a fixed price to repair a faulty TB - maybe they will be offering some small money to buy in failed TBs to build up stocks, or maybe they have passed that point and get enough in to repair to keep the flow/demand happy.

 

I've just checked BBA Reman's website, but they don't seem to cover Throttle Body repair, there are others though that might.

Edited 17 October, 20241 yr by rum4mo