Matt Black's Clio FWD running an LSD 450 BHP 1.8T VAG Engine IIRC GT30RS, which posted a 10.9 1/4 mile time and a 4.1 0-62 time.

And even that to 62 is only a bit quicker than a STi PPP/TSL333 (4.5/4.4)

due to its lack of traction, which is exactly what i was trying to say. a car that light and powerful is only quick when moving due to the fact that it simply can't put its power down like a 4WD car can

what a stupid comaprison to make!

that will never happen, a car will never be in the situation that both rear wheels have zero traction and the fronts have perfect traction unless the rears happen to be on sheet ice while the fronts are on perfect dry tarmac which just isn't going to happen.

and ESP would make no difference as its job is stop the car from going where you don't want it to, not about getting traction. ESP knows where your pointing the wheels and how much power your putting down so knows exactly how the car should be responding in terms of forces so if the actual forces acting upon the car aren't what it expects(I.E. you are starting to over/understeer) then it will brake the relevant wheel the car go where it thinks it should be going again.

it still doesn't change the fact that an AWD car will always be able to put more power down onto the road than a normal street going FWD car simply because 4 wheels are driven instead of two.

also in the FWD car as you accelerate the weight shifts further back over the car so reduces traction even more!

in your octavia II what happens if you rev your car to 5000rpm then drop the clutch?? i bet mine reacts completely differently

I don't rev to 5000 and drop the clutch. If I did, ESP (or just traction control) would step in and cut the power down. It's what ESP does, not just brake the wheels with traction. Why do you think you should turn ESP off if you're dragging? Because it cuts your power down.

AWD cars don't put more power down. They put the same power down, but to all wheels, increasing the car's ability to overcome friction at what would be undriven wheels in a FWD car.

For instance, a 200HP FWD car puts 200HP down to the front wheels (ie. 200HP to the front axle). A 200HP AWD car puts the same 200HP down, but to all wheels (ie. 100HP to the front and rear axles each). Where's the "extra" power here??? Has the AWD drivetrain somehow MYSTICALLY created some extra horses? I think not....

And how stupid a comparison do you actually think it is? Why do you think 4WD in any form was invented in the first place? The idea is, it halves the chance of your car getting in the situation where the drive wheels lose traction.

Case closed.

due to its lack of traction, which is exactly what i was trying to say. a car that light and powerful is only quick when moving due to the fact that it simply can't put its power down like a 4WD car can

But the lighter the car is, the less the driven wheels have to work to get the car going. a=F/m : Newton's 2nd law of motion.

but, if you did rev to 5000 and dump the clutch with the esp/tc switched off, chances are you'll be sitting there in a cloud of tyre smoke whereas the 4wd car launched in exactly the same manner will be zooming off down the road...

given two cars of roughly equal mass with roughly equal power, the car with 4wd will accelerate off the line quicker.

go study goochie's video of of two jabb'd octavia elegance estates racing on a runway and see if you can spot which one is the 4wd.

But the lighter the car is, the less the driven wheels have to work to get the car going. a=F/m : Newton's 2nd law of motion.

Case Re-Opened? :P

That's why my '96 P reg Cinquecento Sporting could whip all your asses. It used to eat STi's for breakfast. in fact it was so fast that I used to go back in time every time I drove it.

And the stereo was bangin I tell thee!

Here is a picture

but, if you did rev to 5000 and dump the clutch with the esp/tc switched off, chances are you'll be sitting there in a cloud of tyre smoke whereas the 4wd car launched in exactly the same manner will be zooming off down the road...

given two cars of roughly equal mass with roughly equal power, the car with 4wd will accelerate off the line quicker.

go study goochie's video of of two jabb'd octavia elegance estates racing on a runway and see if you can spot which one is the 4wd.

Sigh.

Not really. If we assume both cars had equal power and torque (presumed to be reasonably high), one was FWD, the other AWD, both weighed the same with the same weight distribution and both had perfect traction, the FWD car would still win.

Think of HP (let's say 200HP) as how fast a car can turn its wheels, and torque how hard it can turn them. The FWD car is sending 200 horses to it's front wheels. The AWD car is sending 100 to the front and 100 to the rear. This means that at the same point in time, the FWD car's front wheels are spinning twice as fast as the AWD car's. If they both have perfect traction, the FWD car would be going about twice as fast as the AWD car at the same point.

Obviously, in the real world, this doesn't happen and lots of other considerations need to be made, such as traction at each wheel, torque deficits, engine characteristics etc. which is where AWD comes in (as mentioned previously, it halves the risk of losing traction to your drive wheels)

But to sum up an AWD car (AWD meaning that all four wheels are being driven permanently, differentials aside, as opposed to 4WD, meaning a part-time 4-wheel driven solution) would actually be at a disadvantage to a FWD car.

Case closed. Again.

Here is what happens when a FWD Octavia takes on a 4x4 Octavia. Both with Jabba remaps and similar power:weight ratios.

right click - choose "save target as" (opening directly doesnt always work)

http://www.philgooch.com/video/incar.wmv

http://www.philgooch.com/video/MVI_4803.avi

http://www.philgooch.com/video/MVI_4804.avi

Spot the 4x4.

here is the 4x4 Octavia against an Impreza

http://www.philgooch.com/video/bengie.avi

and here is the FWD against the Impreza

http://www.philgooch.com/video/race1.avi

By the way, that Impreza is a standard MY05 non-STi !!

LOL @ this thread!

PittvRS - I believe you but can't see the picture

Edit: My old Panda 4x4 would've been even quicker though

If they both have perfect traction, the FWD car would be going about twice as fast as the AWD car at the same point.

As I mentioned previously, I'm no engineer so please be gentle Surely in an AWD car, the power goes to the wheels with traction so in a perfect world, all 4 wheels would be being driven. Therefore, 200bhp would be reaching the wheels (ignoring transmission losses) so both cars would accelerate equally because the effect is cumulative and each axle does not operate independently? :confused:

Chris

Or looking at it even more simply.....

f=m.a

Force = mass x acceleration

therefore the acceleration of the 2, neglecting torque differences, friction and other losses would be the same.

Sigh.

Not really. If we assume both cars had equal power and torque (presumed to be reasonably high), one was FWD, the other AWD, both weighed the same with the same weight distribution and both had perfect traction, the FWD car would still win.

Think of HP (let's say 200HP) as how fast a car can turn its wheels, and torque how hard it can turn them. The FWD car is sending 200 horses to it's front wheels. The AWD car is sending 100 to the front and 100 to the rear. This means that at the same point in time, the FWD car's front wheels are spinning twice as fast as the AWD car's. If they both have perfect traction, the FWD car would be going about twice as fast as the AWD car at the same point.

Obviously, in the real world, this doesn't happen and lots of other considerations need to be made, such as traction at each wheel, torque deficits, engine characteristics etc. which is where AWD comes in (as mentioned previously, it halves the risk of losing traction to your drive wheels)

But to sum up an AWD car (AWD meaning that all four wheels are being driven permanently, differentials aside, as opposed to 4WD, meaning a part-time 4-wheel driven solution) would actually be at a disadvantage to a FWD car.

Case closed. Again.

so...these perfect conditions where a fwd car could be launched faster/harder than a 4wd don't actually exist..?

you've just been aguing for the sake of arguing...

I love all this airfield/textbook crap.

There are a few ex scooby owners on here, and others who have, or have had performance awd cars. To get a scoob/evo to do the stated book 0-60 time, you have to launch the car. Launching an Evo 3 times costs

but its not a proper road car is it?! and when you say beat them do you mean over a 1/4 mile or actually beat them away from the line aswell, as even setup as a drag car i doubt thats possible as an 800Kg car should struggle like mad to put 200bhp through the front wheels from a standing start where as it would take probably 600bhp+ for the AWD to be able to break traction at take off.

His car is street legal,tax'd,insured and mot'd and is driven to york raceway and sometimes santa pod from hull,its never trailored

but yes he does launch quicker than most reasonable powered AWD vehicles but some big power cars can beat him off the line and over the 1/4 which is to be expected

his best time is in the late 12s when i last saw it run which i beleive makes it one of the quickest street legal normally aspirated FWD cars in the country

He just loves drag racing and has been doing it for a few years now and has perfected the drag racing launch,

his car is set up for drag racing and has the rear suspension set higher than the front and has very high poundage springs on the rear to try and stop the front end lifting on launches so its a well set up car thats all:thumbup:

Here is what happens when a FWD Octavia takes on a 4x4 Octavia. Both with Jabba remaps and similar power:weight ratios.

right click - choose "save target as" (opening directly doesnt always work)

http://www.philgooch.com/video/incar.wmv

http://www.philgooch.com/video/MVI_4803.avi

http://www.philgooch.com/video/MVI_4804.avi

Spot the 4x4.

here is the 4x4 Octavia against an Impreza

http://www.philgooch.com/video/bengie.avi

and here is the FWD against the Impreza

http://www.philgooch.com/video/race1.avi

By the way, that Impreza is a standard MY05 non-STi !!

Good vids. Like the one from the octavia on the right. Just to see the white octavia leave the fabia. The beauty of awd

Most cars today once rolling, in a straight line are pretty competitive. Subaru is not the car it once was, and some owners find that hard to take in.

But from the vids you can see, that even WRX leaves the competition behind, nevermind an STi. So to the original poster, it seems he wasn't trying, or you caught him off-the-boil :P

what happens if the high powered jap car that the mapped fabia tries it on with is actually in the right gear for the task at hand...:P

I love all this airfield/textbook crap.

There are a few ex scooby owners on here, and others who have, or have had performance awd cars. To get a scoob/evo to do the stated book 0-60 time, you have to launch the car. Launching an Evo 3 times costs

Good vids. Like the one from the octavia on the right. Just to see the white octavia leave the fabia. The beauty of awd

Most cars today once rolling, in a straight line are pretty competitive. Subaru is not the car it once was, and some owners find that hard to take in.

But from the vids you can see, that even WRX leaves the competition behind, nevermind an STi. So to the original poster, it seems he wasn't trying, or you caught him off-the-boil :P

Being the OP it wasn't (as first appeared) an STi - it was a WRX. And as I've more power and torque, from a rolling start (as here) he wasn't going to get away :D

Who really cares how fast a Scooby is off the line!!!!

Ive owned a Jap import WRX with 260 BHP and a Fabia VRS with 185 BHP, they both felt quick both fast enough to lose your licence, on par I would have the Fabia anyday, Subaru, too thirsty to keep and use on a daily basis, 20 mpg or 25 if you drove like your grandmother!!!

I had an Imported STi, measured at 290 bhp at Powerstation, 20 mpg on Optimax + Octane Booster driven normally, yes it was quick but due to the laggy turbo you had to work hard to get any speed out iof it, it also had the habit of breaking. Would I have another NO No No cost a bloody fortune to own.

Most Scoob owners Ive come across tend to treat the cars carefully so dont be amazed if you beat one

I had an Imported STi, measured at 290 bhp at Powerstation, 20 mpg on Optimax + Octane Booster driven normally, yes it was quick but due to the laggy turbo you had to work hard to get any speed out iof it, it also had the habit of breaking. Would I have another NO No No cost a bloody fortune to own.

Most Scoob owners Ive come across tend to treat the cars carefully so dont be amazed if you beat one

Which bears the question - why have one? I didn't buy a fast(ish) car to drive slowly :D I treat my Octy carefully - I don't abuse it and it is serviced at a top VAG tuner, but when I'm on the open road the size 10 goes down and I use as much of the available performance as I need

0-60 times are (IMHO) irrelevant - they are more a test of who can put up with abusing your cars drivetrain. I won't. There a video clip I saw (think it was on Scoobynet) of a berk showing how fast his STi was from a standing start. He managed it 4 or 5 times before the car stopped moving and a large trickle of transmission oil appeared underneath :eek::rofl::rofl:

Agreed... I don't think I could stand the shame if I launched my Impreza and broke the gearbox at the traffic lights in the high street.

J.

It's not an EVO, it wont break that easily.

Imprezas in standard for are NOT that frigile

don't/didn't subaru offer weekend testdrives? if they were that fragile none of them would have made it back to the dealer under their own steam..