M005 - which group are you with?

North Wiltshire Group - seemed the most local to me in Devizes.

Been assigned a tutor in Calne, which at leats is nice and local, just need him to get in touch now....

I, and the majority of "tin top" race and rally drivers, agree with Chris about how you should adjust the steering reach. That said, this is sometimes at odds with the recommended distance from wheel pad to chest with an airbag wheel.

if you can hold the top of the steering wheel without bending forwards at arms length then you should be at the correct distance.

North Wiltshire Group - seemed the most local to me in Devizes.

Been assigned a tutor in Calne, which at leats is nice and local, just need him to get in touch now....

Same as me - is your tutor Roger?

Same as me - is your tutor Roger?

No, someone called Kevin Hugo.

if you can hold the top of the steering wheel without bending forwards at arms length then you should be at the correct distance.

Not quite; you need to have your elbow still bent rather than locked out. I'll not get into whether you should just be holding the wheel, or able to rest your wrist on the top whilst sitting back.

Ken - do manufacturers publish the "range" of their air bags? I know in the US the airbags tend to be a lot bigger as >sweeping generalisation alert< most people there don't bother with seatbelts? Not something I've ever heard of before, but very valid nonetheless!

Chris

I think the wrist thing is with arms outstretched so that when you grasp the wheel, your elbow will have the right degree of bend in it.

I recently sat (and unfortunatly failed0 the advanced test but i didnt bother to resit 1 because they wanted 35 quid off me for a resit9to drive my own car for just over an hour i dont thinkso) but also because i felt there was massive inconsistencies between my observer and examiner, i dont dispute my driving wasnt up to test standard on the night of the test but i was criticised and pulled up on certain things that were never ever raised with me by my observer. i also agree with the whole rigid system of driving to the rules rather than driving for driving.that said i did pick up some useful tips but not enough to warrant paying 35 pounds to drive my own car just to get a piece of paper that from what ive heard isnt really worth much where insurers are concerned.

Not quite; you need to have your elbow still bent rather than locked out. I'll not get into whether you should just be holding the wheel, or able to rest your wrist on the top whilst sitting back.

No what I am saying is if you can hold the top of the steering wheel you are at the correct distance away from it. when you then hold the steering wheel at a 10-2 or 9-3 position you elbows will then be bent due to the way the steering wheel is angled .

i felt there was massive inconsistencies between my observer and examiner

What you have to remember is that your observer is a volunteer and has probably done about 10 hours of training tops. The examiner will have done a 4 week intensive course to get to PC1 and then been reassessed every few years to make sure that standard is maintained. Therefore they are a world apart.

If you've found inconsistencies, it may be worth reporting back to your group or asking for another observer to take you out for an assessment. I see you're near Loch Lomond, so might be worth giving Mr Bigw2069 a shout as he is not too far from you in Rosyth and may be able to give you a few pointers

Chris

I don't have time to read through all of this thread, but do have time to give you some impression of why people like my didn't jump at the chance straight away.

To me, driving with your hands at 10 to 2 as much as possible is annoying and uncomfortable. I like to have one arm leaning on the door sometimes, because I just do. I've so far not wanted to pursue advanced tuition because I am concerned that it will just be a course that gets me out of "bad habits" that I know I am just going to get in to again (holding on to the gearstick when driving, driving with one hand on the wheel, not always taking the car out of gear if I'm not going to be stationary for much more than 10 seconds, etc).

If the IAM course is NOT like a normal driving lesson, and is genuinely a course that accepts your "habits" as a driver (providing they are not dangerous), and just makes you "better" and "safer", then I will more than jump at the chance to do it. But I can tell you now that the IAM has a reputation amongst people my age of "the 10 to 2ers".

I'd mainly want three things from an advanced motoring course.

1) Proper overtaking tuition. Do I accelerate before, or after moving on to the opposite side of the road? Etc (I don't want an answer to that question here, because everyone has a different opinion)

2) More advanced cornering techniques - entry and exit speed etc (not racing techniques...)

3) An "economical driving" section - even if only advice.

You will get all of that from an IAM or RoSPA course, but they will need to correct your bad habits if you want to pass the test. You may find you never go back to them, advanced driving gets under your skin and you want to continue to improve. The RoSPA system, where you are retested every 3 years, helps to reinforce that.

Why do you hold onto the gearstick?

If you have a comfortable properly adjusted seating position, 10 to 2 shouldn't be uncomfortable.

I don't hold on to the gearstick forever, but I will put my hand on the gearstick 2 or 3 seconds before I am going to change gear. My driving instructor had a big problem with this. It's just a habit I got in to in the 4 years driving before I went on the road.

Regarding the properly adjusted seating position - it is properly adjusted for me, and 10 to 2 only becomes uncomfortable after an hour or so (I suffer with my right shoulder for no known reason). I just asked my girlfriend and apparently I drive at 10 to 2 90% of the time automatically (I didn't even know!), so that's not so much of a problem.

Here's a question - are you made to feel stupid if you fail the IAM test? I think that just attending the course shows you want to do something about your driving - and regardless of if or if not you pass, attending the course in itself must go some way to improving your driving?

I don't hold on to the gearstick forever ... It's just a habit I got in to ...

Habits are easy to break - you just have to be conscious of it. I bet when you drive home today you'll be thinking about it

Regarding the properly adjusted seating position - it is properly adjusted for me, and 10 to 2 only becomes uncomfortable after an hour or so

Long enough to pass an IAM/RoSPA test, then

Here's a question - are you made to feel stupid if you fail the IAM test? I think that just attending the course shows you want to do something about your driving - and regardless of if or if not you pass, attending the course in itself must go some way to improving your driving?

Absolutely The only person giving you a hard time will be you, yourself. Your observer will want you to pass, the examiner will want you to pass, everyone will want you to pass. If you don't (unlikely if you take it seriously and actually try to pass), everyone will be disappointed, but nobody will have any interest in making you feel stupid. They all wanted you to pass in the first place. They'll be thinking of ways to get you through as soon as possible with a retest.

That's ok then - another opinion of IAM members that I and my friend shared before we actually read up about the courses etc, was that they looked on other motorists as beneath themselves, which also put us off..

What benefits are there, if any, insurance premium wise to doing these tests?

The "if any" bit is probably right. There are insurers who take it into consideration - try Adrian Flux for example - but on the whole, it's not generally a big discount earner.

Other benefits are, though, that you will be safer (yes, I've read your other thread :P ), more economical (boring, I know, but saves money), and if you're keen to learn, on a never-ending quest for improvement.

Been on a track day yet?

Yegnold, my 2pworth. Intended as friendly advice.

10 to 2 isn't mandatory IME; quarter to 3 is quite acceptable, and the best position will depend on exactly where the wheel spokes come in.

Leaning an arm on the door is actually a breach of the MV, Construction and Use regs (bizzare but true), and should fail a DoT test, never mind an advanced test, and could possibly lead to a "Driving Without Due Care or Attention" charge, so you shouldn't do it.

I think a similar argument applies to driving with a hand on the gear lever, which also causes excessive wear on the gear synchromesh.

As for your comment about your shoulder, this sounds like a form of muscle tiredness, so perhaps you should take more regular breaks when driving?

Been on a track day yet?

No, but it was something that I and my friend wanted to do. I assume you think it's a good idea?

I love economy - and actually find that driving can be more fun/challenging when trying to drive as economically as possible (am I strange? ). I saw someone mention in another thread that when aiming for economy, you generally notice far more of what's going on / notice the things quicker (the person in front braking, someone pulling out 100-200 metres ahead, traffic lights having been on green for too long for them still to be on green when you get to them...)

Plus, coming back here and letting people know that it's quite easy to get 67MPG (indicated, true is around 62 or 63) from a Fabia VRS when they're getting 40 - 45 is always interesting...

It's a shame that there's no premium rewards - driving a 130HP car at my age, I'm paying a significant amount of money for comprehensive insurance... haha

Yegnold, my 2pworth. Intended as friendly advice.

10 to 2 isn't mandatory IME; quarter to 3 is quite acceptable, and the best position will depend on exactly where the wheel spokes come in.

Leaning an arm on the door is actually a breach of the MV, Construction and Use regs (bizzare but true), and should fail a DoT test, never mind an advanced test, and could possibly lead to a "Driving Without Due Care or Attention" charge, so you shouldn't do it.

I think a similar argument applies to driving with a hand on the gear lever, which also causes excessive wear on the gear synchromesh.

As for your comment about your shoulder, this sounds like a form of muscle tiredness, so perhaps you should take more regular breaks when driving?

Thank you. Could I ask then, is it also a breach of those regulations when people use the arm rests installed in motor vehicles, or are these exempt as they are designed for that purpose?

I've seen suggestions that adjusting the stereo or heating controls whilst moving can be "Driving Without Due Care or Attention" within the meaning of the Act(s)!! :eek: I think the basic argument is that you can't move your arm freely to steer "properly", or can't steer properly one-handed.

If you really like driving, you'll want to try all the possible variations. Hence the mention of track days. They're a good way of working out the impatience you suffer on the road, and of exploring the limits of your and the car's capabilities in an environment designed for the purpose. They're also bloody good fun

I've seen suggestions that adjusting the stereo or heating controls whilst moving can be "Driving Without Due Care or Attention" within the meaning of the Act(s)!! :eek: I think the basic argument is that you can't move your arm freely to steer "properly", or can't steer properly one-handed.

Not to mention the guy who caused a multiple pile-up because he was getting some mints out of the glovebox ... :nono:

Just to add to Nick and Ken's points, advanced driving should focus more on the end goals you're trying to achieve rather than robotically teaching you techniques to carry out, without understanding why you do them.

You have to remember that when Roadcraft (from which IAM/RoSPA is taught) was created back in 1932 cars were very different and pull/push was necessary. Now that power steering is commonplace, it means that it is possible to drive one handed but you'd have to look at the reasons why you do that and consider the implications. Same with the gearstick. One of the problems with some of the observers in IAM/RoSPA is that they like to see things done by the book, whereas the examiners who are serving/retired class 1 police drivers like to see a bit of individuality based on the book.

You've listed 3 areas you want to improve and IAM/RoSPA will cover the first two (within the bounds of the law) and the 3rd one will likely fall out of improving your long range observation and your control over the vehicle.

Whereabouts in the country are you as there may be someone on here who lives nearby and has offered to give advanced driving taster sessions who can show you what it's all about.

Btw, Adrian Flux offer a 25% discount to IAM/RoSPA members

Chris

Herefordshire/Worcestershire border, Chris.

Thanks for your input

After reading this thread I've finally decied to join my local IAM, been looking at it for a couple of years but never did anything about it.

My new years resolutions was to actually do stuff instead of just talking about it .

Having done about 30K miles a year since I passed my test 8 years ago, mainly motorway miles, I consider myself a safe driver but admit I do have bad habits. Hopefully this course will teach me a few things to improve my driving as I still really enjoy getting behind the wheel & going for a drive.