Buying 2.0 TDi, oil pump advice

[bryanp]

I am looking to change my 130 1.9TDi Superb for a newer VAG car, Superb2, Passat or A4, due to the fact you can only get low BHP 1.9 engines on the later cars I'm going to have to look at 140 2.0 TDi engines to get the power I need for towing.

As we all know about the 2.0TDi the oil pump problem is a major problem, My understanding is that the old way the oil pump was driven was by chain and the teeth on the sprocket would strip and the tensioner would fail, I beleive that the problem has been sorted and now the oil pump gear driven,

So my question is, is there anyway to tell If a car has the modified oil pump fitted, I have read that any A4 made after 06 will definately have the gear driven oil pump, is this correct and is this the same for all VAG cars or did it take longer for these engines to filter down to Skoda?

Got all my info of this A4 forum page (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=757454&d=0&nmt), some interesting replies and pictures on the link to instruction for replacing the oil pump.

Edited 17 June, 2011 by bryanp

[rotodiesel]

Lots of confusing information there.

Very briefly, the 2.0 PD differs from the 1.9 in having twin Lanchester balancing shafts which contra-rotate at 2x crank speed. The first engines used a chain drive which was a complete disaster (pictures on your link) and the later engines a gear drive. All 2.0 PD Superbs got the geared drive.

The problem with the Superb's 2.0 PD engine is the drive from the slave balancer shaft to the oil pump, which is a piece of 6 AF hex bar which has inadequate engagement depth with the grooves in the slave shaft. Due to the extreme torsional oscillations in the drive (the same ones which wrecked the earlier chain drive system) the grooves in the balancer slave shaft and the corners of the drive shaft strip and drive to the pump is lost.

Apart from offloading a pile of duff engines into "Skodas", VAG have not done much, as far as I can see to properly fix this - the oil pump drive shaft length increased from 75 to 100 mm according to EKTA, no doubt as a cheap fix by increasing the engagement length. They're never going to fix it properly either, the PD engine is dead.

Avoid all 2.0 PD engines. The 140 in practice produces no more power in the useful rev range than does the 1.9/130

The 1.9 engine has a chain drive to the oil pump - only. It's a nice smooth drive with no torsionals, just what a chain needs. The drive on the 1.9 will last the life of the engine.

rotodiesel.

[bryanp]

Lots of confusing information there.

Very briefly, the 2.0 PD differs from the 1.9 in having twin Lanchester balancing shafts which contra-rotate at 2x crank speed. The first engines used a chain drive which was a complete disaster (pictures on your link) and the later engines a gear drive. All 2.0 PD Superbs got the geared drive.

The problem with the Superb's 2.0 PD engine is the drive from the slave balancer shaft to the oil pump, which is a piece of 6 AF hex bar which has inadequate engagement depth with the grooves in the slave shaft. Due to the extreme torsional oscillations in the drive (the same ones which wrecked the earlier chain drive system) the grooves in the balancer slave shaft and the corners of the drive shaft strip and drive to the pump is lost.

Apart from offloading a pile of duff engines into "Skodas", VAG have not done much, as far as I can see to properly fix this - the oil pump drive shaft length increased from 75 to 100 mm according to EKTA, no doubt as a cheap fix by increasing the engagement length. They're never going to fix it properly either, the PD engine is dead.

Avoid all 2.0 PD engines. The 140 in practice produces no more power in the useful rev range than does the 1.9/130

The 1.9 engine has a chain drive to the oil pump - only. It's a nice smooth drive with no torsionals, just what a chain needs. The drive on the 1.9 will last the life of the engine.

rotodiesel.

[/quote

Cheers,

My problem over the last 2-3 year is that all the latest 1.9TDi engines are only about 105 BHP so due to their limitted power are no good to me for towing at they can only usually tow about 1400kg, that why I'm looking at the 2.0TDi, if they still did the 130 1.9TDi it would be a no-brainer but I suspect for this reason thats why they don't!

So Roto, what you are saying is stear clear off all 2.0 PD engines no matter what age as they have never sorted the problem or is their a different 2.0TDi engine to look out for in the VAG range.

I had heard that they had hardened the Hex shaft driving the water pump to sort the problem, this they could say was not a mod as they were still using the same parts so people couldn't use it against them when trying to claim. again is this correct?

If they haven't sorted it I don't know how they can still send car out with engines with such a fundamental problem.

Its a right headache trying to decide what to do!

Just as a sub note, looking through the forum the 2.0TDi CR seams to be choice to go for as they as apparently a different beast, is this good advice and how do these engines differ, I take it CR stand for common rail as in my 1.9TDi?

Sorry to keep go on and adding bits, but the more you look in to this the bigger the mine field it becomes!

Edited 17 June, 2011 by bryanp

[rotodiesel]

I have a 1.9 engine type AWX in my Superb which is rated to 130 BHP. The engine is easily the very best feature of the car which will tow a 1500kg twin axle braked trailer with ease. It can also do 55 mpg if you drive it considerately and it also goes very well unhitched. So far, reliable apart from one CTS.

I suspect you may be shopping for a Mk II Superb (this is the Mk I Forum) - hence the confusion.

My advice to anyone is to avoid the 2.0 PD engine at all costs. This defect is so absolutely damaging and expensive to fix, it's just not worth the risk. Buy a car from somebody else.

rotodiesel.

[rwbaldwin]

...I had heard that they had hardened the Hex shaft driving the water pump to sort the problem...

Assume you mean oil pump.

Hasn't really worked. I've seen a couple of cars that have had an oil pump failure, the shaft has been replaced by a hardened one and they have failed again. They have solved the problem of the shaft rounding off, but now the pump itself is being destroyed.

I'm convinced that the underlying problem is a lack of concentricity of the drive 'socket' in the balancer shaft.

None of the cars where the balancer unit has been replaced has failed again.

[bryanp]

"I suspect you may be shopping for a Mk II Superb (this is the Mk I Forum) - hence the confusion."

The reason i asked on the Mk1 forum is there seems to a bit more knowledge gained over longer ownership here, especially with the 2.0TDi starting in the old Superb. Just wonder if the newer models are suffering from the same problem.

Just out of interest most A4, Passat and Superb diesels seem to be fitted with 2.0TDi's, does any one know roughly what is the failure rate percentage, especially sine they modified to the hardened Hex shaft?

Also is it me or do these problems seem to be isolated to the A4, Passat and Superb, when you search the net you don't seem to get the same problem come up with say Octavia's, Golf, Jetta's or other 2.0TDi VAG cars, why is this, whats the difference with their engines?

[rotodiesel]

VAG sell the transverse cars - Golf/Octavia etc. in vast numbers and make good profits from them.

There are no facts available, so we must speculate. My suspicion is that the engines with the earlier design of oil pump drive were deliberately dumped on the Skoda N-S installations to minimise corporate damage. A fully dressed diesel engine is too valuable to scrap.

If diesel Golfs all suffered from this problem, their profits would be hit.

VAG have been less than honest in selling the 2.0 PD in the old Superb. Vote with your feet - there are plenty of good diesels out there from other makers. Avoid the 2.0 PD.

rotodiesel.

[bryanp]

VAG sell the transverse cars - Golf/Octavia etc. in vast numbers and make good profits from them.

There are no facts available, so we must speculate. My suspicion is that the engines with the earlier design of oil pump drive were deliberately dumped on the Skoda N-S installations to minimise corporate damage. A fully dressed diesel engine is too valuable to scrap.

If diesel Golfs all suffered from this problem, their profits would be hit.

VAG have been less than honest in selling the 2.0 PD in the old Superb. Vote with your feet - there are plenty of good diesels out there from other makers. Avoid the 2.0 PD.

rotodiesel.

So what you are saying is the Golf 2.0TDi engine is probably the CR type, the PD with a differnt style of oil pump or the modified oil pump? god what i mine field this is!

[rotodiesel]

The CR and PD engines have completely different fuel systems and cylinder heads. The CR engine has a cambelt driven high pressure fuel pump.

The bottom ends may or may not be the same - try asking your ever helpful dealer.

If you want the right answer, you're going to spend a couple of hours with EKTA.

rotodiesel.

Edited 21 June, 2011 by rotodiesel

[skodanut]

the newer cr engines are now chain driven according to the brochures.......but as for the bottom ends like roto states...going to take some investigation to find out what is lurking inside the sump !! I asked TPS who were very helpful in deciding what oil pump design was on my previous skoda ....and one good main dealer even got that wrong when it was printed out.

[nick74]

I spent some time on ETKA a while ago trying to figure out why some 2.0PD oil pump drives fail and some don't. The BKD, AZV & BMN 2.0 engines (which is what found their way into the 2.0 PD Octavia, A3, Golf, various Seats) used a chain driven oil pump very similar, but not identical, to the 1.9 engine. This never seems to give any problems. As far as I can tell from ETKA these engines don't have a balancer shaft which I think is the key to it - it's the balancer shafts that cause the problems on the 'posher' VAG 2.0 PD diesels eg Passat, A4, Superb. By trying to make the engine more refined for the more expensive models they destroyed it's reliability in the process.

[rotodiesel]

Nick, you've probably found the answer.

It's the torsional oscillations caused by the balance shafts which destroy the oil pump coupling and (originally) the chain drive to the balancer shafts. Think washing machine -> unbalanced load -> keep doing it = new machine.

PSA had no problem at all driving their oil pump from the slave balancer shaft on the bigger HDi engines so it's probably poor VAG engineering at the bottom of it all - as usual.

If you're right, congratulations on unravelling the mystery. How about using EKTA to make a list of the "killer" 2.0 PD engines?

rotodiesel.

[nick74]

I've heard conflicting info in the past on whether the BKD has a balancer shaft or not, but looking again at ETKA the 2.0PD AZV, BKD, BMN engines (in the mk2 Octavia for example) all use the same chain driven oil pump and drive, with no balancer shaft module fitted to any of them. None of these engines seem to have oil pump problems.

In the mk1 Superb the 2.0PD BSS and BWW both have the same gear driven oil pump with balancer shaft. In a similarly aged 2.0PD Passat the balancer shaft looks very similar to the Superb's but according to Etka it was chain driven and the part number is one letter different. Compare this to a 2009 Mk2 Superb 2.0PD and the part number changes yet again, but gear driven. The part number on an Audi A4 2.0PD is different again, but also gear driven!

It's a minefield, but the common factor seems to be that the 'Golf-sized' 2.0PD cars don't have a balancer shaft, and therefore don't have oil pump drive problems. The 'Passat-sized' 2.0PD cars do have a balancer shafts, and can have oil pump drive problems, but may not do depending on which particular pump/shaft setup is fitted.

As for isolating the particular engine codes which do have the problem I think I would have to take this up as a full time job!

[Minimoke]

I've heard conflicting info in the past on whether the BKD has a balancer shaft or not, but looking again at ETKA the 2.0PD AZV, BKD, BMN engines (in the mk2 Octavia for example) all use the same chain driven oil pump and drive, with no balancer shaft module fitted to any of them. None of these engines seem to have oil pump problems.

In the mk1 Superb the 2.0PD BSS and BWW both have the same gear driven oil pump with balancer shaft. In a similarly aged 2.0PD Passat the balancer shaft looks very similar to the Superb's but according to Etka it was chain driven and the part number is one letter different. Compare this to a 2009 Mk2 Superb 2.0PD and the part number changes yet again, but gear driven. The part number on an Audi A4 2.0PD is different again, but also gear driven!

It's a minefield, but the common factor seems to be that the 'Golf-sized' 2.0PD cars don't have a balancer shaft, and therefore don't have oil pump drive problems. The 'Passat-sized' 2.0PD cars do have a balancer shafts, and can have oil pump drive problems, but may not do depending on which particular pump/shaft setup is fitted.

As for isolating the particular engine codes which do have the problem I think I would have to take this up as a full time job!

Nick,

Thats an excellent post and goes a long way to potentially explaining the cause of this issue. It also bears out what my local VAG independent has strongly suspected but hasn't got the time to research properly! He would like to be able to answer his customers questions about this problem openly amd honestly but has found VAG less than forthcoming.

From a purely selfish perspective it seems that all 2.0 PD engines appear to be getting tarred with the same brush about this irrespective of whether they are affected or not by this failure.

Once again (for the umpteenth time) I would request that the mods create a "sticky" about this problem. It keeps getting raised on this sub-forum (and others on BRISKOSDA)on separate threads and I think its important enough to warrant that.

Edited 22 June, 2011 by Minimoke

[Cown]

I would gladly pay you £10 for that list

[rwbaldwin]

...but has found VAG less than forthcoming...

Part of the problem is that this defect is not limited to a single batch of balancer units. The manufacturing problem existed for at least 18 months and varied in severity. Whilst it is unlikely that they would want to recall Skodas, I'm sure they would have issued a recall on the Audis if they could.

The problem with the balancer unit is now fixed but VAG won't say when and won't even give an upper limit to chassis numbers that were affected.

As I said in an earlier post, the problem is with lack of concentricity of the drive socket into which the drive rod fits. Since I've started looking at this problem, I've seen three cars where the drive socket is off centre by at least 0.1mm. In engineering terms, this is a massive defect. Since I've starting checking the concentricity, all the drive sockets in the failed units were off centre, but all the replacement balancer units were dead centre and have not led to a repeat failure. Some replacement balancer units have now done 150k+ miles.

[WestWallPoma]

Part of the problem is that this defect is not limited to a single batch of balancer units. The manufacturing problem existed for at least 18 months and varied in severity. Whilst it is unlikely that they would want to recall Skodas, I'm sure they would have issued a recall on the Audis if they could.

The problem with the balancer unit is now fixed but VAG won't say when and won't even give an upper limit to chassis numbers that were affected.

As I said in an earlier post, the problem is with lack of concentricity of the drive socket into which the drive rod fits. Since I've started looking at this problem, I've seen three cars where the drive socket is off centre by at least 0.1mm. In engineering terms, this is a massive defect. Since I've starting checking the concentricity, all the drive sockets in the failed units were off centre, but all the replacement balancer units were dead centre and have not led to a repeat failure. Some replacement balancer units have now done 150k+ miles.

Reassuring to note that there is a definite improvement in quality of the replacement balancer units. Is there a part # for these or a related service Is it possible that this part was also used on later Mk1 Superbs, or is it likely that there was a shed somewhere that VAG kept the shabby units and said to Skoda "Here, have those and stop annoying us". Considering a pre-emptive strike and getting local garage to do for a TB change and BSM replacement before anything unpleasant happens (it is 4 years old and just squeezed off 30K on the clock). Is this similar to the "chainless" upgrade that our friends over the water have been doing on their BHW engines (part 03G 103 295Q I think!).

[rotodiesel]

Is it worth spending that amount of money on an old car? If it still works, sell it - preferably to a VAG dealer.

There are loads of cars around not fitted with self destructing engines. Buy one of those.

rotodiesel

[rwbaldwin]

Is it worth spending that amount of money on an old car? If it still works, sell it - preferably to a VAG dealer.

There are loads of cars around not fitted with self destructing engines. Buy one of those.

rotodiesel

Have to agree with roto - just don't do it. It's bad enough that this can happen, but there is no excuse for the way VAG treats its customers when it does.

[skodanut]

It's a question of what kind of money one has i think...take the scenario, someone has a very low mileage skoda superb tdi 140 and they find out that although they now know that the engine has a problem with the oil pump and although in their case it is still functioning, but it leaves the owner with a dilema, to get shot of it, or repair it?

The owner also knows that the p/x value for the car is pretty dismal, and if they bought the car from new, then that equates to a huge chunk of money basically wasted if given in part exchange against a new car. Not forgetting they also have to pay thousands of pounds more for another new model and quite possibly take on more finance if that is the route they use in order to buy a new car.

Surely if the owner of his very low mileage superb tdi with all the toys and comfort built in wether it be the basic model or even the opulent elegance or better still the l+k version was to think about the possibility of replacing the oil pump and consider the partial expense against the horrendous cost of buying a new car of the same quality and size and waving goobye to a perfectly decent car and taking on another vehicle, but always have that nagging thing in your mind...if only i did this i'd still have the car.

I have been in this position and i have had our superb repaired, and at the same time my wife took delivery of a mk2 greenline superb, and although the greenline is a very nice car, it doesnt posses the solidity the mk1 superb has, and the only reason we sold the superb was due to the fact that we purchased the greenline via my wife's motability allowance.But both my wife and myself agree, that the mk1 superb tdi 140 was a much nicer car and it actually pained us to sell the mk1 on as we couldnt afford to run two cars, as it made sense to take on the motability car due to very much reduced running costs ie tax insurance and a brand new car every 3years.

[rotodiesel]

Any car is worth a lot more alive than dead.

rotodiesel.

[numskull]

The oil pump blew on our 2006 Elegance at 99k last year. I was fortunate enough to have a main dealer who got full parts contribution from SUK so the total bill was £900 including the tow to the dealer. Prior to that, the car had been really reliable, apart from a rad (warranty), front brake shims, (parts contribution from SUK), diff (warranty - and replaced the clutch at the same time),a new convenience unit (warranty and not water ingress) and a DPF topup, plus all the normal main dealer services. Its now covered 118k, and in great condition. Will be getting a MK2 in the new year but we love the MK1; it drives beautifully, is economic, really comfortable and although its effectively worthless now, I'll be keeping it covered once retired, with the aim to slowly restore to concours. Who knows - this could be worth the original RRP in 30 years! :think:

[sidewaze samm]

Prior to that, the car had been really reliable, apart from a rad (warranty), front brake shims, (parts contribution from SUK), diff (warranty - and replaced the clutch at the same time),a new convenience unit (warranty and not water ingress) and ...

Wow! I do wonder what you define as an unreliable car then. At 66000 miles I'm not exactly jubilant with mine; after just replacement door lock, alternator and high level brake light unit. Oh, and parking sensors.

[numskull]

Wow! I do wonder what you define as an unreliable car then. At 66000 miles I'm not exactly jubilant with mine; after just replacement door lock, alternator and high level brake light unit. Oh, and parking sensors.

For a 10 month old car with 13k on the clock, I paid £13k for it in 2007. On the basis I was covering 22,000+ miles a year, so over those four fairly hard years no, I do not consider the car to've been particularly unreliable. My definition of an unrealiable and "dud" car? Renault, Citroen, Chevrolet or Vauxhall...Take your pick...

[sidewaze samm]

My definition of an unrealiable and "dud" car? Renault, Citroen, Chevrolet or Vauxhall...Take your pick...

You forgot Fiat !