CTHE/CAVE Engine...Whats the diffrence?

[GLENT54321]

Hi All,

First off if this has been asked please point me in the right direct, i tried the search but it brought back loads of results with posts mentioning the above..

So..whats the diffrence in the CTHE and the CAVE engine? why is one better than the other? all a bit confused...

Thanks

Mike

[Ootohere]

The (1390cc) 1.4 TSI S-A Twincharged 180PS CAVE Engine went in the Seat Ibiza Cupra in 2009,

then the vRS in 2010, Polo GTI & A1.185PS

Some have had problems and poor parts probably manufacturing or Quality control.

Some had the wrong plugs, some had bad Coils Packs.

Early ones then were given a ECU Update.

Some got an Oil Breather Mod, some were rebuilt, and some replaced with another engine.

'Volkswagen Audi Group' then changed the engine in the 4th quarter 2012 to the CTHE Engine.

You would hope slight changes & better Quality control, a new MAP and hopefully no problems with high oil usage.

To find out if there are any better parts or revised parts in the engine from Late 2012 , you need to ask Skoda.

george

[sharkrider]

I beleive there was alot of changed parts in the CTHE...... I cannot be specific though, just something I remember reading.... it feels different to the CAVE, but I think thats throttle and ECU reprogramming rather than the mechanics of the engine.....

my CTHE has been driven normally from new, and has used no oil in 3,000 miles and given me no issues..

but then I had the CAVE engine in my last car, and did 50,000 faultless miles, it used a litre in the first 10k, and nothing at all for the rest of that time, so there are pleanty of good ones out there....

[Ootohere]

This is all i found before on the CTHE

http://www.vagoc.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=10073&page=2

[GLENT54321]

is it just petrol engines that were affected of a specific type?

i had a 1.6 CR TDI from 2011...would this be a CAVE engine?

[Ootohere]

It is a petrol engine, 1390 cc 132kw/178 bhp, Supercharged and turbo charged.

Engine of the Year under 1.4 2009-2012.

There are engines with less power that had no problems.

The CTHE engine should be fine, and as 'sharkrider' said, so were many CAVE engines

This Technical Document from REVO about covers the problems.

Never seen anything like the same from VAG though that details what can go wrong.

[sharkrider]

so these differences...

03C 145 702 B - col. scar. tubocomp. gas scar. - 03C 145702 P

03C 133 062 D - combined control butterfly - 03C 133 062 AA

Inherent to the oil pump, oil filter, oil cooler

03C 11 121 M - pinion - 03C 11 121 J

251 N 1115 03C - 03C suction pipe 251 1115 AE

03C 103669 E - cover - 03C 103 669 H

Inherent in 'camshaft, valves adj. Camshaft

036 109 411 H - lever drag roller - 036109411 K

03C 107 065 BL - Complete piston - 03C 107 065 EC

inherent to the head cylinders that

03C 103 475 03C BC cylinder head cover 103 475 DC

Translated it Becomes this:

03C 145 702 B - col. scar. tubocomp. Gas scar. - P 03C 145702

03C 133 062 D - throttle control unit - 03C AA 133062

Inherent to the oil pump, oil filter, oil cooler

03C 11 121 M - pinion - 03C 11 121 J

251 N 1115 03C - 03C intake pipe 251 1115 AE

03C 103669 E - cover - 03C 103 669 H

Inherent in 'camshaft, valve adj. camshaft

036 109 411 H - roller lever drag - 036109411 K

03C 107 065 BL - complete piston - 03C EC 107065

inherent to the head cylinders That

BC 103 475 03C 03C 103 475 cylinder head cover DC

[sharkrider]

new pistons....

[Ootohere]

Bumped,

This is for those that have had the link posted for them when they have asked previously, but seem to forget.

and ask again, and again.

[vxh26]

With all due respect to Sharkrider, the thread certainly doesn't so far as any layman is concerned answer the question "CTHE/CAVE Engine...Whats the diffrence?" does it?

 

The CTHE does appear to have redesigned pistons (and perhaps oil control rings) and "should be fine"

[Ootohere]

Well why does it really matter to tell the layman.

 

I know of one that researched the vRS for months, asked loads of questions,

then eventually road tested one,

then asked on the forum about the sump plug and the Oil Filter & ease of changing them self.

 

Even a layman interested in a particular car, certainly one they had researched,

might have opened a bonnet, dipped oil to see where it is cold or hot and noticed there is an oil filter very near to the Dip Stick.

 

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/seat/ibiza/62507/seat-ibiza-cupra-facelift

[vrskeith]

I beleive there was alot of changed parts in the CTHE...... I cannot be specific though, just something I remember reading.... it feels different to the CAVE, but I think thats throttle and ECU reprogramming rather than the mechanics of the engine.....

my CTHE has been driven normally from new, and has used no oil in 3,000 miles and given me no issues..

but then I had the CAVE engine in my last car, and did 50,000 faultless miles, it used a litre in the first 10k, and nothing at all for the rest of that time, so there are pleanty of good ones out there....

Also quite few bad ones still raising their heads as mileage impacts as well.

Painful for the people trapped in this fiasco with Skoda/VAG.

Please for you that your experience is good. 

However, sometimes , as in life, the minority need support of the majority in recognising that all is not well. "There but for fortune go I"

[vrskeith]

so these differences...

03C 145 702 B - col. scar. tubocomp. gas scar. - 03C 145702 P

03C 133 062 D - combined control butterfly - 03C 133 062 AA

Inherent to the oil pump, oil filter, oil cooler

03C 11 121 M - pinion - 03C 11 121 J

251 N 1115 03C - 03C suction pipe 251 1115 AE

03C 103669 E - cover - 03C 103 669 H

Inherent in 'camshaft, valves adj. Camshaft

036 109 411 H - lever drag roller - 036109411 K

03C 107 065 BL - Complete piston - 03C 107 065 EC

inherent to the head cylinders that

03C 103 475 03C BC cylinder head cover 103 475 DC

Translated it Becomes this:

03C 145 702 B - col. scar. tubocomp. Gas scar. - P 03C 145702

03C 133 062 D - throttle control unit - 03C AA 133062

Inherent to the oil pump, oil filter, oil cooler

03C 11 121 M - pinion - 03C 11 121 J

251 N 1115 03C - 03C intake pipe 251 1115 AE

03C 103669 E - cover - 03C 103 669 H

Inherent in 'camshaft, valve adj. camshaft

036 109 411 H - roller lever drag - 036109411 K

03C 107 065 BL - complete piston - 03C EC 107065

inherent to the head cylinders That

BC 103 475 03C 03C 103 475 cylinder head cover DC

Is this OFFICIAL from VAG or Skoda UK.

 

No reasons for the changes, I note only speculation as usual!

[Ootohere]

The Parts list is the Translation that 'sharkrider' was good enough to do from the Page i found.

On the 'Volkswagen Audi Group Owners Club' forum.

http://vagoc.co.uk

 

I now have the CTHE Engine Part Numbers, It is 11 months since those posts.

&

i have the part numbers for the Head/Valve parts for doing an update etc.

 

These are available to purchase in various countries for anyone wanting them.

[vrskeith]

So, people having short or long engine changes could have totally "******ised" product", part CAVE AND PART CTHE!

 

WHAT A **** UP BY A "PROFESSION "  Global Manufacturing Business!!

 

Goodwill on the Customers behalf and TRUST is flying out the window!

 

What cost is that to the Manufacture??

[Furbytom]

So, people having short or long engine changes could have totally "******ised" product", part CAVE AND PART CTHE!

 

WHAT A **** UP BY A "PROFESSION "  Global Manufacturing Business!!

 

Goodwill on the Customers behalf and TRUST is flying out the window!

 

What cost is that to the Manufacture??

I doubt most normal folk would care less what part-numbers were on bits of their repaired/rebuilt engine as long as it was using no oil and drove well. If I had a faulty CAVE and it was fixed with the upgraded parts off the CTHE and that sorted it I'd be well happy. Skoda would have manufactured a "happy driver" lol.

[matt-sab]

Hi, is there a simple way to ensure what engine is actually used in a car? I'm looking to buy one and want the revised one. Is there a change in engine cover or is it simply find and check the engine or chassis codes? Thanks Matt 

[Ootohere]

It will have left the factory from April 2010 til about August / September 2012 with a CAVE engine and a sticker at the bottom of the drivers side B pillar with CAVE on it.  That does not mean it will still have a CAVE engine or the 2nd engine still in it. (VIN Sticker in the Boot as well says CAVE.)

 

Late 2012 a CTHE will have CTHE on the Stickers and no guarantee that original engine is still in the car.

No guarantee the original parts are in the engine, or the original ECU. 

 

Looking under the bonnet will not tell you what engine is in.

If there is a little orange sticker at the left side of the engine it might have a date on it showing when it was made, but that might be correct or not.

[Breezy_Pete]

On ‎07‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 06:12, Skoffski said:

Looking under the bonnet will not tell you what engine is in.

 

Does this sticker not have engine code written on it?

Can't zoom in enough on this one to see, but it looks like the sort of sticker where I'd expect to see it on.

 

[Ootohere]

^^^ That is how they are in new cars, and how replacement engines did come.  Well some Replacement engines had the Stick on Barcodes etc.

Some do not though. So just the Block Castings and the ground of marks.   There are threads on here on the DVLA & Skoda / VW and Engine Numbers and records..

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/455901-no-record-of-new-engine-fitted-to-vrs-tsi-under-warranty

 

Edited 16 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[Breezy_Pete]

Worth a look then, but not guaranteed to be present or correct.

[Ootohere]

Yes worth a look.

You might then know what engine the car presently has.

 

The Engine it left the factory with is on the Sticker on the drivers door pillar if still there, or the Build Sticker in the Spare Tyre Well.

Some cars are on 2nd or 3rd engines, some are rebuilt and some got short units and some base units.

Sometimes the ECU helps with knowing what engine the car has. Some replaced engines need a new ECU as it changed early and later CAVE, & Early and later CTHE, 

different locked ECU's in the CAVE, then the CTHE.

and various maps over the production run and with the breather mod part 1 & 2 and the Oil Spray Jet upgrade.

[Pologtidan]

Hi guys, hope it's OK to post this, I have a cave engine and currently in the process of rebuilding it, is it possible to use the piston rings... oil control rings from the newer cthe one or would I need pistons too? We bought the car and only had it 3 weeks and the engine became... Well dead I guess. 

[TripDaddy]

Morning geniuses out there i need help. I recently bought a golf mk6 GT 1.4 twin turbo of course it has engine problem. mine is the 09 plate so it had the CAVD engine. anyway...ive recently bought the CTHE to fit in. Now the mechanics have done the job however on the last part they are having problems fitting the driver side engine mount...we've bought 2 different mounts hoping that it'll fit but nothing. do you guys have any idea what is the part or the only solution we have now is to strip the new engine again and take the cover from the CAVD engine maybe that will work? please help a petrol head out. thanks in advance!

[thomasaspin]

1 hour ago, TripDaddy said:

Morning geniuses out there i need help. I recently bought a golf mk6 GT 1.4 twin turbo of course it has engine problem. mine is the 09 plate so it had the CAVD engine. anyway...ive recently bought the CTHE to fit in. Now the mechanics have done the job however on the last part they are having problems fitting the driver side engine mount...we've bought 2 different mounts hoping that it'll fit but nothing. do you guys have any idea what is the part or the only solution we have now is to strip the new engine again and take the cover from the CAVD engine maybe that will work? please help a petrol head out. thanks in advance!

Try the vibratechnics mounts